Supernatural, Season 14, episode 10 “Nihilism”

I don’t care about Maggie, I don’t ever want to see randos running around the bunker in camo ever again. I cannot STAND gunfights in Supernatural. Gunfights became a regular feature only under this new regime and I resent the hell out of it. I am AGAINST it. It’s totally against the spirit of the show.

That being said:

I think the device of this ep was beautiful – and beautiful in a way I haven’t felt in 3 or 4 years. The symbolic weight of the device was in place – and the resurrecting of an old character worked in the way it has in the past – not in a pandering way like Charlie/Mom/Bobby – but in a way that deepens our understanding of this character’s purpose and meaning to Sam and Dean. I haven’t felt this in a long long time with this show. AND nothing was sacrificed. You still got your story, you still had a plot-line … you moved your Arc forward … but it had that deeper THING going on – emotions, basically – it was interested in WHAT IS GOING ON WITH SAM AND DEAN. (The fact that I don’t feel that anymore mostly is such a bummer. It’s why I watch the damn show. Monsters shmonsters.)

The “resolution” to the episode’s arc – with its Babadook echoes – was haunting and very well done (not to mention an accurate representation of what it feels sometimes living with a mental illness – it actually gave me a little chill, thinking, “Wow. Yeah. That’s what it’s like. Ouch.”) The resolution had that OTHER LAYER going on, so it works on the surface literal level, just in terms of plot – but it also works on that deeper metaphorical level, where all the good stuff happens (or, used to happen). The episode, and these elements, were sensitive to all the resonances in these characters, their relationships, their past, etc.

I was sincerely moved by much of it.

Thoughts?

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67 Responses to Supernatural, Season 14, episode 10 “Nihilism”

  1. Michelle says:

    This episode felt like Supernatural to me…more than any episode has felt like Supernatural in a very, very long time. I was engaged pretty much the entire episode…with the brief exception of Leader Maggie (Really??????) and the hunters waiting for the monsters. (The words “Go monsters go, kill them all!!” may have possibly been yelled by me at that moment)

    Pamela was a wonderful addition to the episode and you are absolutely right that it wasn’t in a pandering way. Nostalgic yes, but not just for the sake of nostalgia alone. In that scenario she was a perfect fit and it was great to see her again.

    I loved the bar and all the shout outs it contained. The moose head on the wall…perfect. There was also a squirrel holding a bottle of beer that I completely missed but saw later in a pic that someone had posted. Even the fact that they called it Rocky’s Bar cracked me up.

    Jensen was fabulous (of course!!) in the episode portraying both Michael and Dean. I loved Michael’s little snarky comments. (His imitation of Cas “I gripped you tight and pulled you from perdition made me laugh out loud) I love his portrayal of the cold rage that is always hovering under the surface. It explodes out of him for brief moments and then he pushes it back down, but you always know it’s there. There is absolutely no need to do the glowing blue eyes thing that they keep doing with Michael to emphasize who he is….Jensen portrays that perfectly without any special effects.

    I really enjoyed this one and will look forward to rewatching with my husband this weekend. (He won’t love the episode because they didn’t show the Impala. How many times they show the car is his rating scale for all episodes)

    • sheila says:

      // Leader Maggie (Really??????) //

      I know. I wouldn’t put her in charge of anything. I think this is a misguided attempt – yet again – to bring Girl Power into the mix – but … it’s “off”. like, she’s been a liability repeatedly. Put someone else in charge.

      // I loved the bar and all the shout outs it contained. //

      I need to go back and watch and look for more details. It felt like a very rich environment. and I love that this is Dean’s comfort zone: SAM out on a monster hunt, him tending bar with PAMELA. Fascinating.

      • Jessie says:

        I feel like they’re trying to show her as someone who’s out of her depth, but the whole apocaworld folk revue has been so pointless and anonymous and blank that I’ve no idea why she’s in charge over others, where the others are, if they died this episode or if those were some other rando hunters, if anyone cares about them, etc. I’m very confused about the whole thing!

        • sheila says:

          Yeah, me too. Very confused.

          All these big huge guys around her – who all seem, you know, capable – and she’s shrieking and gasping orders. Doesn’t really make much sense – unless they’re trying to show her as a Frodo type – someone called out of her comfort zone into a leadership position.

          But – like you say – I can barely keep any of those people straight ANYway and I just want them to go back to the AU already so we can burn the bunker down and move on with our lives.

          • Jessie says:

            hahaha

            I mean…..who on earth *are* any of these hunter extras and all the other ones that apparently got called in to Kansas City? I have no idea if they’re even from our world or not. It’s such bad storytelling. Redeem their souls with murder!

          • sheila says:

            The hunter extras are terrible.

            Member the good old days when hunters were eccentric sui generis weirdos?

            Not kiddos taking orders and “training” in the gun range in the bunker. Ugh.

  2. Carolyn Clarke says:

    I second your emotion as the song goes. This was the old Supernatural with the emotional beats in the right place and at the right time, a good fight scene in the bar, the fantastic shout outs to prior seasons and the acting. Lean, efficient. I agree that the subplot of Maggie and the Hunters was lame but it can’t be perfect but it came very close.

    I was surprised at how emotional I was in listening to Dean’s traumas. I swear that I briefly saw each scene in my minds eye when I heard his voice. I loved the fact that Sam realized that Dean’s imaginary contentment was the key to finding him. Also, during Michael’s monologue, Dean didn’t really respond until Michael mentioned Sam and then he told him to shut up. As we’ve all said, the key to this show is Sam and Dean. Maybe someone finally got the memo?

    • sheila says:

      // I was surprised at how emotional I was in listening to Dean’s traumas. //

      Carolyn – me too!!

      What an amazing moment. And to hear it all happening simultaneously – like, that’s how it is in his head – and of course we all KNOW that, but it was a beautiful way to make that visual.

    • sheila says:

      // Also, during Michael’s monologue, Dean didn’t really respond until Michael mentioned Sam and then he told him to shut up. //

      Ooh, will have to go back and re-watch. Need to look for these details.

  3. sheila says:

    In re: Pamela:

    I have so many thoughts about the choice to bring her back for this “altnernate reality” sequence – how well it dovetails with her showing up in Dean’s heaven – the conversation they had about heaven at the imaginary roadhouse –

    but ALSO, beyond plot points – what Pamela “represented” to him.

    I’ve said it so many times that these secondary characters can be useful – but when they really matter is how they illuminate the two main characters better. Like: who Dean is with Charlie helps us see HIM more. Same with Amelia and Sam (I stand strong in my love of her for this very reason. She is more illuminating of who Sam is than Jess ever was.) Garth illuminates the brothers. etc.

    Pamela was only in 4 episodes. But look at what she brought.

    And there was something in their dynamic that Dean found very comfortable. And it was clearly not platonic – like his love for Charlie – there was always that other edge to it – but Dean has that “open for business” edge and you know who else does? Pamela. At their best, and most relaxed, they are okay with this. It’s their safe space. People misunderstand Dean all the time because of this – and I’m sure Pamela is misunderstood in the same way. But the two of them looked at each other and clocked a kindred spirit. And sex isn’t off the table. You always get the sense it COULD happen.

    That’s all still in operation in Dean’s head in this episode.

    So whoever was “in charge” of this one – or whose idea it was to bring Pamela back – understood and RESPECTED these resonances – not just in Dean but in us.

    Very very satisfying.

    Would be interested to hear other people’s thoughts or interpretations of the Pamela thing.

    • Carolyn Clarke says:

      I love Pamela actually more than Charlie. As someone said, Charlie puts the Winchesters in protective mode. They don’t see her as a woman at all. She was family and a playmate and a gifted asset to the family business but there was never any indication that they saw her as a real woman. She was a sparkly hobbit, a cosplay buddy. But I equate Pamela with the first appearance of Amara before the writers lost their collective minds. Smouldering, intelligent, adult sexuality. An independent woman who was forceful. What’s also interesting to me is that neither woman is candy box pretty like Jessica with all that blond hair and big eyes. Pamela has an interesting face and I love her muscular arms. This woman has done shit. She’s been tested and hurt (remember Jessie?) but came out the other side.

      • sheila says:

        Great thoughts! Love it!

        // But I equate Pamela with the first appearance of Amara before the writers lost their collective minds. //

        hahahaha

        // This woman has done shit. She’s been tested and hurt (remember Jessie?) but came out the other side. //

        Yes. And she doesn’t need Sam and Dean to come to a new understanding of her life and her problems – which sometimes happens with other characters – nothing wrong with that – but she occupies a unique position.

        Her reappearance also speaks to the guilt Dean and Sam still feel about her death.

        Keeping these connections between the present and the past episodes is so important and I’ve really missed it.

    • Jenny says:

      Same with Amelia and Sam (I stand strong in my love of her for this very reason. She is more illuminating of who Sam is than Jess ever was.)

      Good god I thought I was alone in this. I think if you extrapolate Jess out – smart, driven, encourages Sam to do things for himself – you get ideas about who he is. Same with Madison, Sarah Blake, even Piper and Kara from the siren ep. But besides Dean himself, I don’t think anyone illuminates who Sam is better than Amelia.

  4. Maureen Cameron says:

    Hi all! I’ve only posted a few times before but I love this site so much, it is the first permanent tab on my phone.

    The first thing that came to mind in this ep was Jensen’s portrayal of Dean. But I couldn’t place it at first; it was Dean, but it was not. Was Micheal in Dean at the bar? I couldn’t tell. But I trusted that Jensen was not making a mistake in his portrayal. As I discovered, it was Dean without TRAUMA! I barely recognized him. He was less heavy and more jovial (a bit like Micheal, really.) God bless Jensen’s acting. Such a gift.

    I totally agree with the Pamela analysis. The secondary characters of SPN make it what it is. Usually everyone is perfectly cast. And Pamela is no exception. I love how she differs from Charlie-where we get to see the brothers protective, big-brother side (which is extremely hot to me!)- she is not a hunter, from her standing perfectly still when the vamps arrive, but she is their equal. A force, an independent spirit fully fledged.

    And the references of the bar. It is named Rocky’s, and immediately shows a Moose head. Dean refers to an IPA from Austin which is from Jensen’s real brewing company and his Cosmic Cowboy draft. Those are the ones I caught so far, but I need to watch again

    Also, love that Sam is away, but Dean doesn’t worry about him at all. Huh.

    • sheila says:

      Maureen – thanks for commenting! I’m glad you choose to visit here!

      You know, this is fascinating – you are absolutely right that the Dean in the bar was not really Dean. I felt it, but I didn’t really put my finger on it – but I think you are exactly right. This is Dean without trauma. Now I want to go back and watch again. I will tomorrow – so I can study it more carefully.

      // God bless Jensen’s acting. Such a gift. //

      You are so right.

      I am actually enjoying his portrayal of Michael – even though I know some people aren’t. I don’t say this to create negativity – I am truly interested in the various reactions to what he’s doing.

      The way I see it is: the main element he brings as Michael is that his eyes are dead. Or when something does happen in his eyes, it’s the almost lazy alertness of a waiting predator. Nothing human. (I agree too that we don’t need his eyes to light up blue. He’s already doing what he needs to do.) I also think that in this past episode, Michael was the most interesting he’s been as a character, giving Jensen more to work with.

      But at any rate, back to your comment:

      // she is not a hunter, from her standing perfectly still when the vamps arrive, but she is their equal. A force, an independent spirit fully fledged. //

      Yes! and while I love Jodie and Donna – what I love about Pamela, and what has truly been missing from the show in general – is a casual no-big-deal-we’re-all-grownups acknowledgement of sexuality. Just … HAVING a sex drive. Pamela was open about her own. I mean, she’s making cracks about a threesome within 5 exchanges, and doing so from a place of power. I love that about her. She grabs their asses, makes suggestive comments, and is also a trusted smart cookie. This is the kind of indepth characterization the show used to give to its secondary characters – and she wasn’t even secondary. She was tertiary!! When she kisses Dean in their heaven-roadhouse, he succumbs immediately. Like, if there was time, they’d go off and do it right there. They’re the same that way. And he doesn’t judge it in her, and she doesn’t judge it in him.

      It’s amazing when you think about this woman whose character was killed off – 7 years ago? 8?? and she was only in 4 episodes and yet we have this rich character to deal with.

      I have felt so betrayed by what they have done to these beloved characters – bringing them back, and yet without the history behind it – like, what use is Bobby if he doesn’t feel connected to Sam and Dean?? So I am very happy they brought Pamela back – using what was set up so many years ago – in a new and fresh way, giving us illumination into where Dean’s really at. all that trauma.

      It’s perfect too that they’re not “in love.” No longer is his inner dreamspace a woman sitting on a picnic blanket. It’s hanging out with this trusted person, bantering, doing shots, laughing, and him constantly asking her out – wondering why she always has a boyfriend. hahahaha I need to watch it again but I thought the dynamic was really eloquent – because it shows what Pamela meant to him, the space she holds in his heart.

      This is why bringing back some alternate Charlie is just … so misguided. Because look what happens when you leave space for the “return” – and allow the characters to still exist in our guys’ psyches – it’s wonderful!

      // Also, love that Sam is away, but Dean doesn’t worry about him at all. Huh. //

      Yes! I noticed this too! Amazing, right?

      So in this world, hunting still exists – but Dean’s not doing it – Sam is. Dean’s “keeping the home fires burning” for his … brother-wife, who’s out at his “job.”

      It was all so rich. I’m really enjoying thinking about it and talking about it.

    • Paula says:

      //it was Dean without TRAUMA! I barely recognized him. // it was! I liked the fast repeating loop of him and Pamela going through the motions in the bar and how it doesn’t give him any time to think about trauma or Sam or what isn’t right in the scenario. It isn’t supposed to be a perfect story – it’s just a sweet spot to keep him distracted so he doesn’t fight anymore.

    • Melanie says:

      Pamela \\she is not a hunter\\ In the first iteration of the dream Dean does toss her the sawed off shotgun before swinging his machete. I agree, however, this doesn’t necessarily make her a hunter. It just means that if you’re gonna be a barmaid at The Famous Dean Winchester’s bar, you’d better know how to deal with the occasional pissed off monster. Pamela can hold her own in this world which is why she is the perfect choice here. Better than Charlie, Ellen, even Jo.

      • sheila says:

        also, I thought the monster bursting in the door saying “DEAN WINCHESTER. I AM A MONSTER AND I AM HERE TO GET YOU” was … ridiculous? But then I wonder if it was deliberate. Like, it’s Dean’s “dream” version of a monster – 1. who knows his name 2. is easily dispatched with.

        This brings me to another issue with all of the camo-rando-hunters in the bunker – now they’re all just saying “monsters” – so is Michael, come to think of it – and “monsters” is so generic.

        Part of the fun of Supernatural was how nitty-gritty it got – so much so that I would know how to kill a wraith if I saw one.

        Now? They all just get into a wide stance and start blasting their guns.

        I am so DONE with this gunfight bullshit.

        • Jessie says:

          oh my lord Sheila, YES. It’s not like they never used the word monster before, but this episode was saturated in it and it gave me full-body cringe each time it appeared. Every other line this season is about “monsters” and it’s become such an empty, vague, self-important concept.

          • sheila says:

            yeah, it felt really really juvenile. “The monsters are on their way to the bunker!” Like, who do you think you’re kidding.

      • sheila says:

        // Pamela can hold her own in this world which is why she is the perfect choice here. Better than Charlie, Ellen, even Jo. //

        Yes! Because she’s part of it, but she’s adjacent to it. She’s not invested in it as an ego thing. She knows Dean is. “I’m famous!” (love!)

        The looping around of this one moment – the Groundhog Day starts and stops – was very effective – especially how they kept showing the random moment of Dean going into the storage space. Those sequences had nothing to do with anything – except foreshadowing of where Michael would be trapped – and so that worked (if suddenly, at the end during the fight, Dean had “remembered” that there was a walk-in freezer with a lock – it would have felt dumb.)

    • Melanie says:

      I can’t help but compare this Dean with Demon!Dean. Except for the challengers Crowley was throwing at him he was hanging at bars, watching strippers, singing bad karaoke, and hooking up with bar maids. All his burdens and responsibilities were lifted. He was freed. Now, obviously, bar owning, monster head hacking, famous Dean Winchester is better than the black eyed demon who chased Sam with an axe, but that Dean without trauma or responsibility is intriguingly similar. Again, props to JA for bringing those stories to the surface for us to enjoy.

  5. sheila says:

    I wasn’t even bothered by YET ANOTHER PEP TALK between Cas and Jack, and Sam and Jack. They’re really in a rut with this.

    Fine, do your pep talks – as long as the main focus is Sam and Dean.

  6. sheila says:

    I just noticed that the two gigantic figures on the wall in the bar – the cowgirl and cowboy – seen behind Sam and Cas when they show up – are the same figures from that other episode recently where they went to a Western town and Dean fanboyed all over everything. I remember nothing else about the episode but that.

    Of course they’d be in Dean’s fantasy bar.

    Plus that pic on the wall of skeletons playing poker!

  7. Michelle says:

    I watched the episode again last night and very much enjoyed it again. There’s a lot to ponder in it. Finally, an episode of Supernatural that allows for deep thinking again!!

    Michael wanted Dean content. Maybe I’m reading to much into things, but I think the fact that he wanted him content says a lot. Michael didn’t go extreme either way. No pain and trauma, because like Sam said that is par for the course for Dean and that brings out the fighter in him. However, he didn’t try to give him some fairy tale either that would give him blissful happiness. Honestly, I don’t think that’s a place that Dean is capable of existing in. He wouldn’t trust it at all and would peg it as fake almost immediately.

    Michael wanted Dean passive and no longer struggling. He had to create a place that Dean would want to stay in, and I find the picture of Dean’s contentment and the role Pamela played in it fascinating.

    Dean was in a moment of time where the responsibility of the world was no longer on his shoulders. Again, it wasn’t an idyllic fairy tale world. Monsters were still out there, but Sam and Cas were out there hunting the good hunt, so Dean didn’t need to. He didn’t run from trouble or avoid the monsters, but he didn’t go looking for them either. He wasn’t NEEDED. I think the lack of people needing him was a huge part of Dean’s contentment world that came shining through. Sam and Cas were alive, out hunting, always on the verge of being back soon. They were together…Dean didn’t have to worry. Jack wasn’t around, nor mentioned. (This could be very interesting when you consider the words Michael taunted Jack with…Dean doesn’t care about you, you are just a responsibility that he has to bear…) Mom wasn’t around or mentioned either. (No surprise there at all)

    The person Dean did have at his side (because of course he had to have somebody…. Dean doesn’t like to be alone) was a strong, capable, attractive woman who did not need him to fulfill her in any way. There was honesty, respect, and obviously great trust between them. Attraction? Absolutely. Openly acknowledged, discussed, and decided that it would not be acted upon in a frank, adult manner with no muss, fuss, or drama. She liked him flirting, he respected her ability to shoot down any BS he might ever throw her way and there were no closed doors between them. These two could absolutely have a night of drunken sex…or completely sober sex…and get up the next day and go about their lives and be ok with each other.

    Pamela let Dean be. She was frank with Dean and asked him why he didn’t want to sell the bar and get a lot of money for it and when he answered that it was his dream and he wouldn’t sell she didn’t try to change his mind or give him advice. She didn’t try and reinforce the fact to him that the bar was dead. She didn’t try to convince him that with a lot of money he could go somewhere else and open a better bar…one where maybe monsters didn’t bust in all the time and he had to chop off heads? She just smiled at him. There was a lot going on in her face at that moment. The look spoke of a lot of things that she wasn’t saying, but the only word she spoke was “Yeah.”

    Now the woman interested in buying the bar is fascinating to me. What did she represent? Was she the part of Dean’s subconscious that was trying to point out the flaws in his dream and get him to sign the dream away and face reality, or was she a representation of Dean finally getting to choose something for himself? It didn’t matter how flawed his dream was, it was his by Chuck and he was keeping it.
    An amusing part of Dean’s contentment world was the fact that he still got to be the Hero of his own story. He wasn’t hunting monsters anymore, but they were still coming to him because he was “famous.” That grin!! I laughed.

    A few other fun things about the bar I noticed after watching again. I did see the squirrel holding the beer bottle. Pamela’s t-shirt said “To Hell and Back Again.” There was a carving on the bar of a heart with the words “Fred Loves Daphne.” The picture of the skeletons were totally a callback to episode 10×23 “Brother’s Keeper” when Dean killed Death 1. He lured Death with a Mexican feast. Baby’s original Kansas license plate was hanging up behind the bar, and there were a lot of shout outs to Jensen’s real life brewery.

    • sheila says:

      This is so great. Loving these thoughts. It’s like the good old days!

      I love where you’re going with why the bar is set up the way it is – not its decor really – but the whole scenario. There are still monsters, but it’s not solely his responsibility. But it wouldn’t be realistic to put Dean in a place without that kind of charge. He needs it.

      // I think the lack of people needing him was a huge part of Dean’s contentment world that came shining through. //

      Yes. Really good point. And that’s the Pamela thing, as you describe, as Carolyn describes above.

      Even the possibility of sex – or even just some hardcore flirting – doesn’t come with need attached. Like, once he’s in deep with Lisa, there’s need there. He dealt with it, he liked being needed – it’s a real thing for him, right – this is his ROLE in life – but the absence of that in the dream-space was fascinating.

      and yes! what’s up with the realtor lady with her silver briefcase?

      // or was she a representation of Dean finally getting to choose something for himself? //

      I lean towards this and I also lean towards her giving Dean a chance to be strong and uncompromising. “Nope. No can do. Nope. This is my dream. Nope. Have a drink.” Like, there’s not even STRESS around the fact that there’s nobody in his bar but a passed out vampire. It’s an oasis, a Utopia. It exists on its own steam. There are no bills to pay – but even with that I love that there’s a scene back in his office – where (presumably) the business part of the job happens. The dreamspace is not just the front of the bar. There’s an office where he and Pamela hang out – there’s a freezer which (of course) becomes the cage.

      But yeah, the realtor’s visits are real-world-issues but for dream-space Dean they are totally low stakes. SHE feels urgent, but HE doesn’t, and what a beautiful space of relaxation that must be for him. To not feel urgent and stressed in the face of somebody else’s stress.

      // I find the picture of Dean’s contentment and the role Pamela played in it fascinating. //

      Me too! Clearly!!

      A less imaginative “take” would be to have Charlie there as co-bartender. Right? Someone he loved, someone he was comfortable with. But – as Carolyn said above – her role was different in his life. There was still a hierarchy there- he’s the big brother.

      Pamela and Dean are total equals. And, honestly, when does that EVER happen in his life? What I love about this – and why I appreciate it – is mainly because we’ve gone through two years of having all this connective tissue with the past messed with because of the AU or because nobody over there seems to remember the warp/weft of the show. The “callbacks” have felt pandering or phony – like, they don’t get why we were invested in Bobby in the first place. I don’t know, it’s been very weird.

      But this episode shows that Steve Yockey – who has written some pretty shitty episodes – I’m looking at the list now – or SOMEone over there – remembers Pamela, and remembers her in a complex way, what she brought out, that scene in the Heaven roadhouse, who they are with each other. Because I’m thinking – who else has he had that vibe with? The only other person I can think of is the wonderful character in the bar in “About a Boy.” That one had the possibility of a hookup – and that woman was openly damaged – in identical ways to Dean’s damage. Pamela’s been through some shit, she’s lived, but she’s not damaged. And in her presence, Dean can be himself. They have total comfort with one another.

      // She just smiled at him. There was a lot going on in her face at that moment. The look spoke of a lot of things that she wasn’t saying, but the only word she spoke was “Yeah.”
      //

      Right. She wasn’t woman as nurturer, woman as fixer. They were PALS. I loved that aspect of it.

      // He wasn’t hunting monsters anymore, but they were still coming to him because he was “famous.” That grin!! I laughed. //

      Ha! I know, that was so great!

  8. Aslan'sOwn says:

    Even back in Croatoan, Dean was saying he was tired: “I’m tired, Sam. I’m tired of this job, this life . . . this weight on my shoulders, man. I’m tired of it.” And the weight on his shoulders only got worse with the Apocalypse, the Mark of Cain, the Darkness. So it was so amazing to see him free from that. I thoughtI saw in the back office that he had paperwork he was dealing with, like bills to pay, but those things weren’t overwhelming him. The vampires, the bills, the pressure to buy the bar — I sort of saw that as a way to make the dream not quite perfect (otherwise Dean wouldn’t have believed it, in the same way that the djinn’s world wasn’t perfect either.)

    On a side note, didn’t they mention in Scoobynatural that the bad guys were usually crooked real estate investors?

    I loved Pamela here, and, as you all have discussed, this is how to bring back a character! The AU Bobby and Charlie are so incredibly disappointing. It’s almost like a possession: there is the “meat suit” that they know, but the person inside is not the same one they knew and cared about. So why do it? IT’S NOT THEM! It’s almost like Mary’s return was a harbinger of that: Here! You get your mom back! Of course, it’s not a caring loving mom who wants to get to know you and spend time with you. Instead, it’s Uber-Hunter Mary who has had more sex since she’s come back from the dead than her sons have in the same amount of time. At first, I thought it was a shocking and potentially interesting direction to take the character, but I just ended up being disappointed and left cold. And now here’s Bobby and Charlie, but it’s not our Bobby and Charlie, so why even bother bringing them back? Just so we can see Jim Beaver and Felicia Day? I mean I like them, but not at the expense of the story.

    • sheila says:

      // didn’t they mention in Scoobynatural that the bad guys were usually crooked real estate investors? //

      hahahaha yeah, that’s a Scooby staple. Hadn’t picked up on that.

    • sheila says:

      // Instead, it’s Uber-Hunter Mary who has had more sex since she’s come back from the dead than her sons have in the same amount of time. //

      hahaha I know.

      Such a huge disappointment – in making all these silly choices, they’ve drained the show of its symbolism and power.

  9. mutecypher says:

    What a treat to have an episode worth diving into!

    I was struck by how food didn’t figure at all into Dean’s happy place – as compared to the djinn episode “What Is And What Should Never Be.” It made me want to compare Dean at that age to our season 14 Dean. His comfort now is tequila, and flirting – no actual sex (though apparently Pamela was getting laid). And as Sheila and Aslan’s Own have remarked, no Mom. Versus beer and hamburgers and Carmen and the smell of Ivory Soap and Mom in cotton (projecting here, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain). I’m going to pretend that the writers were doing this compare-and-contrast consciously. I love the comments about Pamela being an equal. What a great choice! Dean Season 14 isn’t looking for the kind of cocooning that he got from Season 2 Memory-Mom because Season 12-14 Thanks-Amara-Mom has decided that Nurture can renege all responsibilities to Nature. He’s looking for someone who doesn’t need him or (sexually) want him – just someone who likes him, knows him, and acknowledges him (for his ego gratification mostly) as a sexual being. I don’t know if too much distilled spirits and too many copies of Busty Asian Beauties have killed his desire to actually enjoy a willing person. Pamela’s comment that “you always want what you can’t have” not withstanding. Unless the flip of that is “you don’t want what you can have.” Dean did have some deja vu, so the fantasy wasn’t chaffy enough to keep Dean’s radar completely baffled. Dean’s cocooning here is the alcohol, the reassurance that someone else is fighting the monsters, and a friend-without-benefits who recognizes him as a desirable man. Middle age.

    I was intrigued by Michael’s view of Chuck as a writer-god, just making drafts and abandoning them. I was also struck by how EVERYONE angelic hates being left behind by God. Michael, Lucifer, Cas, Metatron. Chuck really is a deadbeat dad to create worlds where people believe in him and angels have seen him, and then he just moves on. I’m picturing a final SPN episode like the first-and-last episodes of Star Trek TNG where Q leads a group of people who condemn Picard and humanity: only it’s Michael and Lucifer leading a chorus of angels who slut-shame Chuck for his promiscuous Universe-creation.

    You know, I like Maggie as a character. I think it’s ridiculous to have her in charge of the AU-hunters, but that doesn’t mean I don’t like her character. Or don’t like what the actress playing her has created. I do hope she gets some good things to do. Also, I knew a kid named Tiger when I was in middle school. I never trusted him either.

    I looked at the list of episodes that Amanda Tapping has directed – very nice. She does good work.

    • mutecypher says:

      I also loved that it was Dean’s idea to trap Michael where he was. The guy is still a freaking genius. The Dean who swallowed the Phoenix ash to kill Eve because he knew she would bite him. He’s like the brother who can swallow the ocean, in The Five Chinese Brothers. Keeping it all inside. Peak Dean.

    • mutecypher says:

      Oh, and the woman trying to buy the bar. I thought she represented Michael, tempting Dean to give up on his dream. Hoping he would trade the cow from some magic beans. Giving up work-and-comfort for freedom (where there’s nothing left to lose) – so why not just give in whole-heartedly to Michael since he sold his dream?

      But I do like Aslan’s Own theory that the bad guys are usually crooked real estate developers. I also liked Michelle’s suggestions and Sheila’s. I think they are better than mine.

      I wonder if she will reappear later.

    • sheila says:

      // Dean’s cocooning here is the alcohol, the reassurance that someone else is fighting the monsters, and a friend-without-benefits who recognizes him as a desirable man. Middle age. //

      I like this, Mutecypher. Thanks for your take.

    • Barb says:

      I like Maggie,too. I think the actress does some interesting things with her lines– like how she turns things that could be simple statements into question marks. “Can you hack a traffic cam?”. ” No? “. That said, I agree that no one would make her the jr boss!

      On the real estate lady, I love the ambiguity of her–like a true dream figure, she could be any of the things already mentioned. I first thought she represented Michael, too, but after it was over, I thought of the idea that it could be Dean himself, subconsciously trying to get himself to wake up from the dream.

      Of course, she could also be another example of the cheese man. (See Buffy, season 4)

      I’ m so happy that there’s a real conversation happening on this thread,btw!

  10. Paula says:

    Great to come back to these thoughts on the episode. It had me thinking all the next day after I watched it which is a good sign. Initially, I was thrown off by all the bar paraphernalia – it felt like too many in-jokes and throwbacks – but by the end, I realized that it was more a reflection of Michael’s worldbuilding inside of Dean’s head, almost like a fun house with mirrors to distract him with bits of happiness. Same with Pamela’s appearance – she is a reflection of easy going fun, flirting, drinking where Dean can let down his guilt and responsibilities and just be. As some of you all noted, Mary isn’t anywhere to be seen in this dream and that makes so much sense. I love how each loop started back up again with the question of where are Sam and Cas. Dean knows he should be concerned and it starts each loop but Michael just rolls over it like a bulldozer.

    I too was rooting for the monsters to get Maggie. Why would anyone let this woman handle a grocery list let alone led a monster hunt?

    Was surprisingly into Michael’s speech about how each of Chuck’s worlds are just a draft that he makes and then moves onto the next. It takes a different form of daddy issue from Lucifer’s petulance and adds a creepy aspect that God didn’t abandoned our particular world but instead he moved along from draft to draft to tweak it and make it better somehow. He’s not the deadbeat dad walking away from responsibilities – he’s the dad who leaves the family behind because he wants a better one.

    Love reading everyone’s thoughts!

    • Jessie says:

      He’s not the deadbeat dad walking away from responsibilities – he’s the dad who leaves the family behind because he wants a better one.
      Paula — agreed that that was a surprisingly successful element and I LOVE the way you phrase this. All I can think about is Adam!

    • sheila says:

      // I too was rooting for the monsters to get Maggie. Why would anyone let this woman handle a grocery list let alone led a monster hunt? //

      hahaha I know. Like, WHY.

      Think of the other young women hunters the show has given us. Jo. Christy. They were already capable, they were FIT for the job already. Smart and tough girls. I do not find Maggie’s hyperventilating endearing and “relatable” … although maybe she’s there for the teenage set – perhaps she would have more resonance there, so I’ll just shut up. It occurs to me too that I also complain about the “wayward sisters” being too badass. So … I’m not sure WHAT I want at this point.

      Maybe …. character development?

    • sheila says:

      also – after everything – Castiel looked really taken aback at Michael’s speech.

      Would you all agree?

      It’s hard for me to track these emotional journeys at this point. You wouldn’t think Castiel had any “daddy issues” left but the look on his face told me otherwise.

      I’m so bummed out about the whole Chuck-as-God thing I can’t really get into it.

      • mutecypher says:

        I was also surprised at Cas/Misha’s reaction – but I thought it sold Michael’s interpretation. Cas doing a “well, I don’t know” and looking almost offended at the implications helped make Michael’s take more real, deeper, not just petty resentment or a plot justification (even if that’s what it is). At least, that’s how it worked for me.

        I could easily imagine a millenia-old angel taking along time to get past Daddy issues, but that’s not how Cas has been done for a long time (thinking of the ridiculous drinking montage when they were mourning Jack, and all sorts of other things).

        So… crappy reaction within the overall Cas arc, but a nice bit of tension in that particular scene.

  11. Jessie says:

    it’s so cool to see everyone jumped back in! I really like the discussion of what Pamela brings to it although I think only Carolyn has pointed out the most important thing — her GUNS \o/ Does anyone remember Tara from s10’s First Born? Pamela has taken the gun crown from poor dead Tara. That little scene in the back office and where she punches the air and Dean calls for more shots might be my most favourite thing about the episode.

    There are some lovely connections here with other inside-the-head episodes — Pamela from Dark Side, Dream a Little Dream (as you say Sheila, no longer a woman on a blanket), and of course, WIAWSNB, another episode about burdens dropped and picked up. mutecypher love your discussion of that ep and just how different this one is as that’s the first place I went too. Much with the djinn dream, this one serves a particular purpose — to keep Dean placated. He has to believe it. It has to deliver contentment. Like you say Michelle it also dovetails with the way Michael tries to destabilise Jack and Sam and that does make me wonder about the layers of manipulation there. To what degree is this a reflection of Dean’s ideal life or a life he might privately wish for? What other lives might Michael have chosen? I really love that we get this little glimpse inside him and any extra ambiguity is just chocolate sprinkles on top. There’s room there to seed doubt and multiplicity, a precious commodity these days.

    Other things I liked: several nice closeups although some of them were edited in like wrecking balls. Seeing the KAZ license plate again. Sam’s plan to put Michael in the trunk with Garth. “You know I can hear you, right?” MORe SHOTS! Michael’s “really, chains?” amusement (although, like — what the hell is his power level?)

    Without wanting to come in too wet-blanket (upon re-read I definitely so so avert your eyes folks), my major disappointment with the episode is that it just didn’t pack a big emotional punch, for me. There was so much time wasted getting them out of that ridiculous office at the start. I enjoyed the repetitiveness of the time loops but thought they could have grown sharper, harder, more uncanny (Pamela suddenly always being blind was great). It felt, still, bloodless, and I think a large part of that was the way it failed to utilise Sam or prioritise the Sam-Dean connection. There was some urgency there, yes, and he was key to getting through the blackset but — he lands inside Dean’s mind and all that happens is a conversation about “this isn’t real” and whispering Poughkeepsie and having startled/distressed reactions to things? Come on!

    This was finally an episode in which Michael could really get Personal, could really make us give a crap about the threat he poses to Sam and Dean, and he tries bust out some Dean Hates You to Sam and the best he can come up with is an obvious lie about Stanford and then even that doesn’t go anywhere? Shouldn’t that have made us feel something? Makes me think about how well Demon!Dean dug the knife in and how delicious all the feelings were there. Michael is just not scary or emotionally engaging. It’s a bad look, I know, but I can’t help wishing that Sam had gone in alone and that he had actually had to fight to get through to Dean — that he had learned something new or seen something private (I think about his reaction at the end of WIAWSNB, or seeing Lisa on the blanket, or I wuv hugs) or been challenged in some way that spoke to something deep in either of them. Sadly, to me Sam felt like support staff too — if Sam didn’t exist this episode would have been pretty much exactly the same.

    One last rant: this Men-of-Letters gadget with the diodes and the fuckin wires, I mean seriously. Talk about bloodless. They had to drive SPIKES into Sam’s BRAIN when they were dealing with Gadreel.

    Probably failed to not be a wet blanket, sorry folks! The cliffhanger definitely has me intrigued and I really hope that look on Dean’s face means some serious brotherly trauma coming up lol. Give me my goddamn brother-wives!

    • Melanie says:

      Jessie, Your perceptive wet blanket is better than pages of empty fangirling!

    • sheila says:

      Oh yes, TARA. THOSE GUNS.

      // That little scene in the back office and where she punches the air and Dean calls for more shots might be my most favourite thing about the episode. //

      Yeah, me too.

    • sheila says:

      Jessie – thanks for all this. A lot to think about! Not a wet blanket – a thoughtful critique. An initial comment:

      // Like you say Michelle it also dovetails with the way Michael tries to destabilise Jack and Sam and that does make me wonder about the layers of manipulation there. To what degree is this a reflection of Dean’s ideal life or a life he might privately wish for? What other lives might Michael have chosen? I really love that we get this little glimpse inside him and any extra ambiguity is just chocolate sprinkles on top. There’s room there to seed doubt and multiplicity, a precious commodity these days. //

      Yeah, that was my response too. Any glimpse we can get of their inner lives … well, it’s few and far between these days … I mean, I’m thinking way back to Season 11’s “Into the Mystic” and how suddenly – retirement – came into the conversation, which brought out all these interesting things – the flip-flop of nihilism in their attitudes – I don’t know, I guess what I’m missing iN GENERAL is the codependence of these two guys.

      If Dean feels something, and Sam doesn’t feel it – his whole world falls apart. Sam is more okay with feeling something other than Dean is feeling – but Dean’s REACTION causes Sam to tailspin. You know? Entire SEASONS were taken up with this dynamic in the past. It’s just not part of the show now. It’s why I’m not emotionally connected to it.

      and I know I’ve said this before – but Sam is more a casualty of this than Dean. Sam has not been the same since “why are planets round?”

      Okay, back to your comment.

    • sheila says:

      // I think a large part of that was the way it failed to utilise Sam or prioritise the Sam-Dean connection. There was some urgency there, yes, and he was key to getting through the blackset but — he lands inside Dean’s mind and all that happens is a conversation about “this isn’t real” and whispering Poughkeepsie and having startled/distressed reactions to things? Come on! //

      Yes, we were discussing this on Twitter.

      I have no idea what’s going on over there – but I feel like everyone over there is shying away from dealing with Sam and Dean. They are extremely group-oriented. This may be the CW brand in other shows – ensemble shows – but it’s not Supernatural and it’s NEVER been Supernatural. They keep pushing it on us, with the Wayward Sisters, and now the Randos in Camo. Jack and Cas are omnipresent – but all they do is give each other pep talks in the bunker kitchen.

      And … because the bunker remains … we don’t get Sam and Dean in the car. So they never freakin TALK to each other.

      WHY isn’t anyone “over there” cognizant of this??

    • sheila says:

      also: imagine if Sam had gone into Dean’s head alone. Imagine if he had had to bear the brunt of Dean’s trauma alone – as opposed to having it filtered through freakin Castiel. GO AWAY CAS.

      This is the Sam-as-casualty again. One of the reasons I appreciated this episode is that Sam’s focus was on Dean – let JACK deal with Maggie, honest to God – but again, there’s this hesitation to really go there into their relationship, the way the show used to.

      The show was OBSESSED with this relationship.

    • sheila says:

      // but I can’t help wishing that Sam had gone in alone and that he had actually had to fight to get through to Dean — that he had learned something new or seen something private (I think about his reaction at the end of WIAWSNB, or seeing Lisa on the blanket, or I wuv hugs) or been challenged in some way that spoke to something deep in either of them. //

      Oops, I just said this – I’m commenting as I go.

      Yes. It would have been a much stronger choice – but they don’t seem interested in the stronger choices over there.

      I mean, in what universe is it a strong choice to open every episode with the whole gang having breakfast in the bunker? You know?

    • sheila says:

      // this Men-of-Letters gadget with the diodes and the fuckin wires, I mean seriously. Talk about bloodless. They had to drive SPIKES into Sam’s BRAIN when they were dealing with Gadreel. //

      also, have we ever seen that gadget before? I don’t think so, right? You all have better memories than I do.

      The one thing I liked about that gadget was Dean did this little “ooh” sound/expression when Castiel touched him that was super dirty and campy.

      • Jessie says:

        I mean, the bunker is just a drop-in centre at this point.

        Any glimpse we can get of their inner lives
        And you know, I totally get why this was a moving episode for a lot of people — the colours in that bar felt woozy and sorta romantic (the boys’ closeups were bonkers!) and it just felt nice to spend time with a character for the sole purpose of being with that character. Just, to dwell. That was a rare treat.

        also, have we ever seen that gadget before?
        That gadget was introduced s12, when Mary was mind-whammied by the BMoL and then Dean used it to go into her head.

        The one thing I liked about that gadget was Dean did this little “ooh” sound/expression when Castiel touched him that was super dirty and campy.
        hahaha I will admit I find this campiness entertaining too. Brings something different to the table.

        • sheila says:

          // it just felt nice to spend time with a character for the sole purpose of being with that character. //

          That’s why I liked it. It was interested in the inner lives of these characters – these characters that we seem to love/understand more than they do sometimes.

          and yeah, Michael’s got this weird flirty line-reading thing – which is just another side of the coin of Dean’s sexualizing of every moment (or … how Dean USED to be. Sigh.) Dean recoils from being touched … and Michael does this little almost coy “oooh, you bad boy” thing when Castiel puts the nodes on his head. hahaha Jensen. In the zone.

          // That gadget was introduced s12, when Mary was mind-whammied by the BMoL and then Dean used it to go into her head. //

          Oh. So that’s why I blocked it out.

  12. Jenna says:

    To Jessie on your Sam thoughts- this whole season all I think when I see Sam is, “remember when Sam got to have emotions besides ‘concerned’?” I feel like we’ve seen the same two expressions from Sam all season; concerned, responsible leader, bravely holding it together for his team, and fatherly Sam, who sometimes is concerned and sometimes is relieved. I say this as not a Sam fan at all, like I could take him or leave him, but he has felt pretty one note to me this season.

    On the flip side, or course, everything Jensen does is amazing, and I actually found his Michael portrayal to be a lot more interesting in this episode. Probably due to the fact that Michael had real stuff to do this episode, instead of just being smugly confident the whole time- he was probing for weaknesses, manipulating, he was forced to rely on his wits instead of his brute strength so he did seem more interesting.

    Also, can’t believe no one has mentioned the monkey statue from the Road House in Dean’s dream bar yet! It was the first thing I noticed!

    • sheila says:

      Yes, the monkey statue!!

      // “remember when Sam got to have emotions besides ‘concerned’?” //

      This is true.

      For me, the show is the Sam and Dean show, so there’s no way for it to exist without Sam. I’ve written whole things about how the key to the whole thing is Sam – if HE falls apart, the entire WORLD falls apart – which we’ve seen time and time again. Dean falling apart is par for the course – – But Sam is the central axis. This is why when he said the immortal words “Why are planets round?” – which, apparently, he was eager to say to the entity who had done all this horribly betraying shit which had led to the murder of his whole family – my main reaction was: “what the fuck is going on over there.”

    • Melanie says:

      Concerned!Sam. Yes. I said it over on Twitter. I do not like stammering, hesitant Sam! Even my closed caption reads, “Sam: stammering.” I did like the way that young Sam would lower his voice to an almost whisper when expressing ‘concern’ or troubling thoughts. Occasionally his voice would rise to a squeaking crescendo which I found very endearing! Still really hate the stammering!

    • Jessie says:

      Jenna — lol, we’re coming from different angles but we see much the same thing. I would love for him to have some more stuff to do.

      Melanie — your closed captioning, oh nooooooo!

  13. Pat says:

    This is why I love this site – it’s a treasure chest of enlightening insights from other devoted fans. I think I got to the point that I wasn’t engaging during the show like I used to after being disappointed in the last spate of episodes. I guess this is why I didn’t pick up on the deeper aspects during “Nihilism”.

    I was happy to see Pamela again, but I didn’t dwell much on why she was chosen from many other characters that have interacted with Dean. It’s great feeling positive about SPN and I am loving reading your theories and thoughts. Thanks.

    • sheila says:

      Pat – I really feel what you’re saying here. I have been watching all along, and feeling pretty much nothing. I mean, I watched the ‘confrontation” between Dean and Mary and felt outraged as opposed to being a puddle of sobs as I know they wanted me to be. I have completely disconnected.

      But this had some layers to it, and the use of Pamela was unexpected and worked very well – in the way that Supernatural used to work.

      It’s good to come here and talk about these things!

  14. mutecypher says:

    I got a kick out of Pamela calling Cas “Feathers.” That makes her John Wayne and him Angie Dickenson.

    I think he’s been called that before – but with judicious use it doesn’t get old.

  15. Lyrie says:

    I love all your observations about the lady who wants to buy the bar.

    With her strict, plain clothes, she reminded me of all the boring angels – Dean’s subconscious warning him his dream life isn’t his?

    But also: she comes from the outside world – whereas half the vampires are already in Dean’s home. I find that interesting – what is supposed to be the real danger is already there, in Dean’s home. And not that dangerous after all?

    What strikes me is that there is no outside world – it is mentioned but we don’t even see through a window or anything. No road, no Impala… And that bar is SO small. The office and the storage room together are almost as big as the bar. I don’t know what it could mean, but I keep thinking about it. It is a deliberate choice, we’ve never seen such a small bar in SPN.

  16. Barbara says:

    Man, I love returning here not only for the main articles, but for comments. As I’m a bit pressed for time, I will read them all later (only got through half), but I gatta and my 50 cents.
    I was puzzled by the woman trying to buy the bar, I just couldn’t figure out why she was there. Then it hit me. She is a brilliant device by Michael to keep Dean clinging to this dream that was created to imprison him. Think about it, she walks in and she’s absolutely foreign to the bar’s environment. Somewhat pathetic (so as not to appear threatening) but with enough in her to elicit a push back “No, the bar stays, I’m keeping it”. And in responding like that Dean, who’s already starting to ask questions once in a while, digs himself a deeper pit. Michael is a deviant machiavellian SOB, but kudos to him!

  17. hillary says:

    Ms. Sheila— Follower from New Orleans here. Mardi Gras season’s officially started! Wanted to share with you, (in case you didn’t know already), that your man Jensen Ackles is King of Bacchus this year! Rolling on March 3rd down St. Charles. I just opened a bar/restaurant on the route with my older sister, literally just opened last night! It’s called The Library. Great old two story building, prime location. So if you find yourself in Nola this season I hope you’ll stop by for unlimited drinks on the house!!

    • AlyCat22 says:

      I know its been a long time since everyone posted and I doubt you will see this but I just had to say I looked up your bar/restaurant and if I’m ever down that way I will damn well stop in! Such a cool setting! Great menu selection. I hope in this time of the Corona virus that you are able to hang in there and that all is well.

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