I haven’t watched it yet. I just responded to everyone’s comments from last week’s episode and I’m in kind of a depressed mood about what has happened to the show (I’ve been re-watching Season 2 this week). It’s such a stark contrast. I realize I’m late to get the memo. Re-watching “What Is and What Should Never Be” was especially depressing.
At any rate, I’ll show up here after I’ve seen the episode. I just can’t quit you, Supernatural. And I can’t quit all of you too!
Everyone who has continued to gather here to discuss Supernatural – many many thanks. It does help to discuss all of these things.
I’m sad to see your recent comments Sheila, but also completely agree with them. Season 14 has been a really tough season, and yeah. After watching the last several episodes, I think I agree with what you’ve said for a long time now, that the show just isn’t giving Sam and Dean enough room to actually HAVE their emotions. So much emotional shit has just played out but it feels like we are racing through it, and damn story continuity or past canon, or space for the characters to properly react, we have got to get to point B people!
I’m shocked that Sam went along with putting Jack in the box, and as you’ve said many times before here is where that lack of space is really hurting the show. We were not given any time or space to see why Sam went along with it. He was clearly uncomfortable with it and I wish so hard that that would have been a longer arc. Why couldn’t Jack have just been bad with a soul and we could have skipped all that bringing him back to life nonsense and just had this be the main issue. Oh well, we need to fit in all the pep talks and heart warming hugs we can!
I did enjoy Dean going off to cry alone at the scene of Mary’s death, but really wish we had been given more of that from both of the boys!
// that the show just isn’t giving Sam and Dean enough room to actually HAVE their emotions. So much emotional shit has just played out but it feels like we are racing through it, //
Yes! (I’ve finally watched). To put all of that in one ep? I get it, we’re coming to the end but … there’s just no FEEL anymore for the human element – i.e. Sam and Dean’s emotions – and there’s no patience to explore it. I’m now re-watching Season 9 – a fave – and my God, they just drewwwwww it out, that conflict between Sam and Dean. It’s uncomfortable to watch. They let it be uncomfortable.
Jack bursts out of the box in like 5 minutes? Come on, where is the tension in that??
There were moments I liked. Dean crying alone. YES. I wish we had had more of that all along – but I LOVED it. (Jensen killed it in the episode.)
I am also getting serious Castiel-as-God flashbacks. Dabb doesn’t seem to be very original. There’s always a sense of repeat with this show – and I don’t necessarily mind it – but each time something repeats – one of them makes a deal, Sam loses his soul, Dean becomes a demon, whatever – there were EPISODES of exploration. The interest wasn’t in the PLOT – it was in THEM.
and so a conflict about Jack could have held them for a whole season – if they had really explored it, or even knew how. Be brave enough to dig into that main relationship – what if Sam felt Jack wasn’t safe from Dean, and took off with Jack? Or the opposite? Dabb is so drawn to that bunker – he can’t think his way out of it – he’s really really trapped (in my opinion).
During the scene when Jack went nuclear in the box and the bunker starting shaking and went to emergency backup, I thought that Sheila was finally going to get her wish and that the bunker was going to crumble to rubble. Nah, no such luck.
Pat – I know! I was so excited for a second!!
haha I got a moment of thrill there too Pat!
This wasn’t a perfect episode (and that cold open should be stricken from the record and preferably carved from my brain) but it *was* focussed instead of flailing and it had stuff going on with Sam and Dean in terms of conflicting and marginally complicated motivations and desires and Jensen acted the hell out of it so, on balance, this one’s in the black for me. The scenes where they were talking to Jack were nicely grody and made me feel uncomfortable so I was glad for that!
I saw the episode 2 days ago and I already can’t remember the cold open?
Jensen did act the hell out of this. When he’s telling Jack that getting in the box is the best thing – Jensen was doing about 10 different things, all without telegraphing any of it. LAYERS. Lying, and tough, and sad, and super focused on Sam telepathically – all going on at the same time.
and crying by himself … wonderful!
I hated his speech to the generic hunters. I resented that they all were there, chuckling about what a bad cook Mary was. It’s just … there’s no way to fix such scenes, because I have such an issue with the conception. Lol. Like, you’d have to go back an entire season to fix the issue with those terrible generic extras. and it pisses me off that an actor like Jensen and an actor like Jared have to deal with that – it’s bush league stuff.
//During the scene when Jack went nuclear in the box and the bunker starting shaking and went to emergency backup, I thought that Sheila was finally going to get her wish and that the bunker was going to crumble to rubble. Nah, no such luck.//
LOL!! I got my hopes up for a minute too. My husband and I both were rooting for him to do so.
I agree with you Jessie. The “hunters wake” made me gag. Everything Dean spouted off was everything that I think the show was so proud of about Mary and everything that,
to me, destroyed her character. Also the big grand entrance of Fake Bobby made me angry. The music, the close up….like it was something special. It meant nothing because that’s NOT Bobby.
I am going to throw in some kudos to Jim Beaver though. The man is a phenomenal actor. Fake Bobby doesn’t love Sam and Dean. He regards them as comrades and has
respect for them, but that’s about as far as it goes. Jim Beaver plays that to perfection. I think the show constantly tries to blur the lines between the two characters, but Jim is fully aware of the character he is playing and more importantly who he is not, and while certain mannerisms and phrases are indeed similar, he manages to withhold that essential spark that made Bobby who he was. I can’t imagine how difficult that probably is for him.
There was some good conflict in the episode last night and some superb acting. Dean being so calm at the gag worthy wake, rebuffing Sam’s attempts to keep talking, and then going out into the forest to grieve alone. Sam, attempting to find his own comfort and sharing it with his brother, only to have Dean throw back in his face that there wasn’t even enough of her left to bring back. Dean’s continuing coldness and barely contained tolerance of Cas.
Every moment between the Winchester’s and Jack was very well done. Sometimes Jack truly seems anguished about killing Mary, but then when he was relating the “accident” story to Sam and Dean there was such blankness on his face and such lack of emotion in his voice. That was a great moment , especially when you had Sam’s obvious turmoil and Dean’s barely contained rage thrown in the mix.
People on Twitter were infuriated with the Winchester’s during this episode, especially Dean. Give me this over pep talks any day.
Now the biggest negative I had with the episode? (Besides the wake). Realizing that the whole Michael/Dean storyline, the Ma’lak box, and all that beautiful conflict and anguish were essentially nothing but a cheap plot device to get Jack locked up in the Ma’lak box for all of 5 minutes so that it could be destroyed in less than a minute. I mean Dean clearly said that the box was designed to contain an archangel and considering that Jack killed one of those….he was clearly more powerful!!
Sorry…can’t stop viewing the episodes through my post Ouroboros fueled anger! Plus he didn’t even do something useful like destroy the bunker!!! :-)
// Everything Dean spouted off was everything that I think the show was so proud of about Mary and everything that,
to me, destroyed her character. //
Michelle – yes, exactly! They’re so proud of what they created with her – they do not get what they have wrecked, and what they have sacrificed in how they’ve handled her. Hunters “chuckling” about Mary’s bad cooking … ugh. I also wish Dean hadn’t given the speech, although I do like the contrast with him then crying alone.
// I think the show constantly tries to blur the lines between the two characters, but Jim is fully aware of the character he is playing and more importantly who he is not, and while certain mannerisms and phrases are indeed similar, he manages to withhold that essential spark that made Bobby who he was. I can’t imagine how difficult that probably is for him. //
This is a really good observation – thank you!
// but then when he was relating the “accident” story to Sam and Dean there was such blankness on his face and such lack of emotion in his voice. //
This young actor is doing such an excellent job. He’s really created a CHARACTER here – and it is not easy, to blank yourself out like that – to create that childlike sense that he has. I think he’s done a very good job. AND, he can also use it in a humorous and comedic context – not easy.
We’ll see.
What’s wrong is really systemically wrong – like the fake hunters, the alt-characters, Sam and Dean being less than central – but then sometimes things click – and you get the old vibe again. I look forward actually to re-watching this whole season – I’ve really forgotten a lot of it. Is it me or has it been all over the place?
//I look forward actually to re-watching this whole season – I’ve really forgotten a lot of it. Is it me or has it been all over the place?//
Oh yes it certainly has been all over the place!
I barely remember the first part of the season myself. I know that when we got to the winter hiatus, 14 was firmly in the lead for “worst season ever” in my book. 12 had currently been holding that spot. 13 was only slightly salvaged by the fact that I loved Scoobynatural so much, and Jensen’s acting in the episode where Sam got killed by vampires (not to mention that awful intimacy that Lucifer was projecting towards Sam when he resurrected him)
After winter hiatus I suddenly had a gleam of promise in 4 episodes that I enjoyed. (300 had issues, but I still liked it) I got hopeful again. Focus was on the Winchester’s again and I thought they might actually go bold in the finale. Then they detoured again and went down soulless Jack path. Alexander is doing a great job with it all, but it’s all plot focus now, not Winchester focus which is always a huge negative for me.
I guess when it’s all said and done this season will still rank a little higher than 12…at least there were 4 episodes I liked.
Caught up except for this week. It will sit in the dvr until its turn comes.
Did go back and start re-watching Season One. Four eps in. Will watch more of the early stuff. Some things I had forgotten. Some come rushing back.
I am ready for the series to end. Much is indelible. Has been a delicious ride for the most part. I will never hear Eye of the Tiger without seeing Dean’s music video :)
Kathy – I just wrapped up a re-watch of Season 2. It’s so damn good.
Roadkill – my God, I had forgotten how good that episode is. It really moved me.
I loved seasons 1-5 best, though there are certainly many moments as well as complete episodes in 6-14 that I’ve loved. But season 2 is really strong for me – I love so many of the episodes.
Me too , Aslan’s own. But I’m doing a restrospective in .gifs on my Tumblr of each episode in season 3, and damn, there’s not a weak one in the bunch so far. I tend to forget about season 3, but it was as strong as any season in the 1 through 5 venerated show canon.
I’m finally caught up after tax season. I’m here reading, agreeing, enjoying the comments of you smart people! I especially agree with the comments about Jim Beaver, Alex Calvert, and, of course, Jensen Ackles. I’m excited to think about what may be next for them. I have to say that I’m not sure if it’s a response to what the writers have done with Sam’s character or choices on Jared’s part, but I am quite annoyed by his stammering and twitchy facial expressions. I think it’s an effort to portray Sam’s loss of confidence in himself and therefore unwillingness to stand up to Dean’s idea to be rid of Jack. Has anyone else noticed this. Compared to young Sam, standing up to Dean & Dad, I just don’t like the man who middle age Sam has become.
I read early in the season that Jensen said that Michael was not the big bad of season 14. I knew immediately that it would end up being Jack, but agree they wasted too much time getting to it, not allowing for the emotional conflict to build up. //Why couldn’t Jack have just been bad with a soul and we could have skipped all that bringing him back to life nonsense// I agree with Jenna on this. We have this checklist of THINGS Jack has done – killing Michael, killing the snake, stabbing the townie, killing Mary (Thank you, Jack!), without any good emotional conflict. Everybody sitting around wringing their hands and blaming each other for not sharing their concerns. I hate when they are made in to whiny wimps. 2 seasons ago I loved the dynamic between Dean and Jack. He told him point blank that he would give him a chance for Sam’s sake, but if he turned out to be a monster he wouldn’t hesitate to put him down. Jack respected him for that. Where is that? It could be even more intense because Dean had formed this father son bond with Jack. Where is Croatoan Dean who will put down someone he loves rather than see him become a monster?
Or Heart Sam.
Sheila, you have brought up the repeating of plots and themes more than once. I felt the original Dean/Michael/box at the bottom of the ocean was a complete re-tread of the Sam/Lucifer/jump into the cage plot from season 5. Only that time they gave it some room to breathe and develop and Sam actually DID IT! It wasn’t just another set-up for the Jack-the-box pun. How long did it take the writers to come up with that!? I also thought it was somewhat of a rehash of Death trying to manipulate Dean at the end of Season 10. You had Death/Billie coaxing Dean to save the world by killing Sam/trapping Michael and then he/she would fling him to outer space/drop him to the bottom of the ocean where no more harm could come to humanity. In both cases it felt very much like Death trying to use Dean to exercise his/her own power over the future of Humanity. When Dean abandoned that plan we got nothing from Billie – what?
More balls in the air never coming back down to earth. Granted, Dean’s dysfunctional dance with Death is an ongoing theme of which I will never tire. He is an Everyman in that way.