On the essays shelf:
Arguably: Essays by Christopher Hitchens
Christopher Hitchens reviewed Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, the final installment of J.K. Rowling’s series, for the New York Times Book Review in 2007. Recently, I’m not sure if you’re aware, but some idiot wrote a piece bemoaning the fact that adults “now” seem to be reading Young Adult fiction, and, gasp, LIKING it, and, according to this idiot, these people should feel “ashamed” of it. I won’t link to the piece, it’s easily findable, and it launched a million counter-attacks. The topic of that idiotic “think”-piece is nothing new. I remember when Harry Potter first came out, and kids, of course, flipped over it, but then adults did too, and there were a couple of pieces that I recall (and probably more) saying, essentially, What is going on here? It’s so cute when snobs get baffled by things that are popular.
Here’s my thing about commentary like that. You worry about your own damn self, and let me worry about me. There are MANY things to worry about when it comes to the behavior of our fellow humans, but what people choose to read is NOT on that list, nor should it be.
I seem to recall Maureen Dowd writing a think-piece about 10 years ago on the fact that middle-aged soccer moms were now listening to Eminem. Dowd wasn’t really worried about it, I don’t think … she’s not really a scold in that way (although she can be in other ways). You could not get away from the Eminem chatter 10 years ago. Now, obviously, when someone becomes as popular as Eminem did (and “popular” doesn’t even seem to cover it, especially not in the year following the release of The Eminem Show – which was the real tipping point, which was when he reached the Soccer Mom contingency – those of us who had been listening to him from the get-go were already on board) – but anyway, when someone in a “niche” market like hip-hop (at least it was pretty “niche” at that time) becomes as huge as Eminem, it is obviously news. It represented a gigantic cultural shift. It represented the breaking down of some major walls. It had an enormous impact; not, perhaps, to the crossover level of Elvis Presley, but it was in that realm. When Eminem started appealing to old people, women, children, a mainstream white audience, in other words … that was when people started taking notice of him and, incidentally, “worrying” about him – which was snobbery in its own way, not to mention racist, something Eminem clocked them on, most explicitly in his lyrics to “White America,” the opening song on The Eminem Show:
See the problem is, I speak to suburban kids
Who otherwise woulda never knew these words exist
Whose moms probably woulda never gave two squirts of piss
’til I created so much motherfuckin’ turbulence
Straight out the tube, right into your living rooms I came
And kids flipped, when they knew I was produced by Dre
That’s all it took, and they were instantly hooked right in
And they connected with me too because I looked like them
That’s why they put my lyrics up under this microscope
Searching with a fine tooth comb, it’s like this rope
Waiting to choke; tightening around my throat
Watchin’ me while I write this, like I don’t like this, NOPE!
All I hear is: lyrics, lyrics, constant controversy, sponsors working
Round the clock to try to stop my concerts early, surely
Hip hop was never a problem in Harlem only in Boston
After it bothered the fathers of daughters starting to blossom.
“Hip hop was never a problem in Harlem, only in Boston.” That’s it exactly.
You could say the same thing about Elvis with rhythm and blues. And Elvis understood the issue in a similar way. Mainstream America didn’t care about rhythm and blues, or at least didn’t WORRY about it, as long as it stayed on the black side of town. But when a white boy stepped onto Ed Sullivan’s stage, and wiggled his hips, and was filmed from the waist up so that white America wouldn’t have to see it … well, well, well, we all know what happened THEN. Mayhem. The world exploded. We are still picking up the pieces.
Eminem’s audience widened exponentially with The Eminem Show (and then, directly following, with the critically acclaimed 8 Mile). What did it signify? What did it mean? I’m sure there were some who bemoaned what had happened. I’m sure there were worried think-pieces about what Eminem’s crossover moment signified. Thankfully, his fans didn’t give a shit about that because they were too busy blasting “Sing for the Moment” at top volume. When the “youth culture” dictates what is cool to the adults, as opposed to the other way around, it’s a “moment”. But of course that is nothing new either. In 1956, Elvis told a reporter that it wasn’t just “girls” going crazy at his shows, it was old people, little kids, everyone. Youths dictating what is “cool” may seem to be more intense now, because of the 24/7 media and also the easy availability of ALL music now, via things like iTunes and file sharing. Your kids aren’t listening to vinyl huddled in their rooms. You can download a song easily, and get up to speed. So there’s that factor.
But I don’t see anything in any of it as worrisome. It’s just the culture operating as it should. Or, as it does. Business as usual, in other words.
Worrying about the fact that adults sometimes read and enjoy books/music meant for tweens seems to be a complete and utter waste of the beautiful brain and its analytical capabilities that God has given you.
For whatever reason, I am impervious to being shamed for my personal taste. I don’t know why that has happened, but it has, and it has aided me enormously in writing criticism. I have had this imperviousness since I was a kid, a practiced and intense FAN of things from before I can even remember. My taste has an impermeable bullet-proof vest around it. Sometimes people say hurtful things, and I’m human, I feel hurt, but it doesn’t make me alter what I’m doing. I don’t second-guess my own taste. Ever. I love what I love. There have been some interesting moments when I first realized how other people react to an individual’s specific taste. A film critic on Facebook, who admired me, said he was “disappointed” in one of my “favorite films” list – but, he assured me, “it’s okay, I still like you!” It was such a weird response. You’re “disappointed”? Really? You “still like me”? Wow, thanks. Some guy said he was “worried” about the fact that I thought What’s Up Doc was the funniest movie ever. Worried?? You’re actually worried? I don’t relate to other people’s tastes like that. Look, you could tell me your favorite movie was Herbie the Love Bug and I wouldn’t blink an eye. As a matter of fact, I would say, “Tell me why immediately. I need to hear you discuss it.” I think it’s definitely worth people’s while, especially if they consider themselves cinephiles (a word I don’t like – I prefer “film fan”) – to educate themselves on the history of the craft they profess to adore. That’s just being a responsible fan. If you write about movies for a (semi)-living, and you have no understanding of what 1930s cinema is about, or what foreign film is about, if your frame of reference comes from a 20-year period tops – that’s a huge problem. It limits your perspective. But besides that consideration: loving what you love? Go for it.
The flip side has been true for me as well. Before I did what I refer to as the “Stalinist purge” of the readership I acquired early on in my blog, my yearly Bloomsday posts were greeted with dismay, eye-rolls, sneers about “elitism”, and downright hostility. This from people who had never read the book. “When are you gonna devote a day to Tom Clancy?” quipped one asshole. Never, sir. I can promise you that. Never. Sorry my posts on James Joyce are pushing your buttons. Or, no, my real reaction was:
These people felt “left out” by my love of James Joyce, had no interest in actually reading the man, and instead resorted to sneers about how Michael Crichton or Tom Clancy was “good enough” for them. I am not exaggerating.
I have gotten it from all sides, and I could fill a warehouse with the fucks I do not give.
This goes along with my firm belief that there is no such thing as a Guilty Pleasure. The only reason to feel guilty about any pleasure is if it harms others. You know, if you get pleasure from boiling puppies, then yes, you should feel guilty as hell. But the movies I love, or the books I love … if they give me pleasure, I acknowledge that pleasure, and there is zero guilt involved. G.I. Jane is not a “guilty pleasure.” That’s Pleasure, End-Stop. I cover all that a little bit here. It’s actually extremely relaxing once you let go of the “guilty pleasure” concept.
My Elvis pieces were referred to as “fanfic” by some douche on Twitter (he meant it as an insult). He wasn’t being overtly hostile, just kind of cutting me down to size, you know. It’s annoying, and indicative of deeper issues in the critical world (like: why is blatant enjoyment seen as suspect?? How has THAT occurred?), but it doesn’t impact my desire to share, OR (most important) how I write about the things I love. As a matter of fact, the opposite occurs. Being made fun of (however gently) for being a “fangirl” has NEVER shamed me. On the contrary, it makes me realize that I am on the right path.
So no. I am not worried that grown-ups loved Harry Potter. I read the Harry Potter books. I liked some better than others. Definitely not as deep as, say, the Narnia books, or Tolkien’s tales, there was something very surface-y about Harry Potter, but the books were definitely entertaining. I read the Twilight books, too. It was during the darkest period in the history of my family, when my family sat around in my parents’ house on a death vigil that lasted for a month. Snow piled up outside. Hospice nurses came and went. We waited. We watched over. We cried. We loved. We did nothing but watch and wait. Neighbors left pans of lasagna covered in foil on the front stoop. I read the Twilight books during that death vigil. I couldn’t keep my focus on anything more substantial. The books were absolutely ridiculous, terribly written, and also strangely compelling. I have forgotten most of them. But they were a very pleasurable distraction during a terrible terrible time. There are countless examples. Amazingly, I am also able to read and enjoy Tolstoy and Joseph Heller and Charlotte Bronte and George Eliot.
Then there was the worried chatter about the re-issuing of books referenced in the Twilight books (like Wuthering Heights) with sexy Twilight-ized covers to appeal to the teenage market. Some literary critics and bloggers were “appalled.” I think those literary bloggers should be ashamed of themselves. 14-year-old girls were racing out to read Wuthering Heights because it is talked about so extensively in Twilight, and it just seems like smart marketing to give the book a sexy cover that would appeal, and who knows how many girls were turned on to Emily Bronte because of that? Who knows how many of those voracious young girls then went on to Jane Eyre? Or whatever. Only a douche would think re-issuing Wuthering Heights with a Twilight-ish cover design was a bad thing. These folks seem to PREFER literature as an elitist pursuit, and THEY want to be the gatekeepers, not some horrible writer like Stephanie Mayer. You know. This is how people spend their time when they WORRY about what others are doing.
Life is short, kids. Love what you love. No apology.
In my forays into Tumblr, I see a ton of angst about having your particular “ship” criticized. There’s a lot of drama. A lot of screaming along the lines of: I AM ALLOWED TO SHIP WHAT I WANT TO SHIP.
The phrase “No shit, Sherlock” comes to mind.
Stop wanting others to validate your fantasy life. If your fantasy is fragile enough that you are completely thrown by others criticizing it, then stop sharing your fantasy online, and let that fantasy live offline where it is safe. Do what your Fan Ancestors did before the Internet. Let your Freak Flag fly in private. Share with a trusted few. Stop looking for others to “approve” of … your own goddamn fantasy life! Good Lord! Be free, for God’s sake.
Clearly I have strong feelings.
Hitchens had read all of the Harry Potter books, mainly because his daughter was reading them, and also it was obviously a cultural phenomenon and he wanted to investigate it. (He provides an image of his small daughter, holding the gigantic hard-cover book open with her elbow – a touching image, and one that happened in our family too – I remember looking over and seeing Cashel, age 7 or 8, with an 800 page book open on his lap, his elbow holding down the sides.) Hitchens starts off the piece with an interesting observation, that there is something endlessly attractive about the “boarding school narrative.” Perhaps especially to American children who don’t, on the whole, go to boarding school, at least not in the same numbers as British children do. I know that when I was a kid, boarding school stories were among my favorite types of stories, along with “orphan” stories. If a book was set in a boarding school, I was automatically interested. Many of the stories I wrote as a kid took place in boarding schools. As a British person, who experienced first-hand the awful-ness of boarding school, its sadism and lack of privacy and all that, Hitchens finds the phenomenon very interesting and starts out the whole essay referencing George Orwell (what a shock), but Orwell, of course, wrote the gold standard of British boarding school essays, one that every English author imitates in their own memoirs. It’s almost standard at this point.
There’s a lot more in the review, and Hitchens is obviously a fan of the series, although he clocks some of its more noticeable flaws. Hitchens, without being a worrywart, wonders about the phenomenon of the books, and how they tap into these common tropes around for a long time (boarding school stories, orphan hero stories), and how the stories seem to work.
Arguably: Essays by Christopher Hitchens
I would give a lot to understand this phenomenon better. Part of it must have to do with the extreme banality and conformity of school life as it is experienced today, with everything oriented toward safety on the one hand and correctness on the other. But this on its own would not explain my youngest daughter a few years ago, sitting hours on end with her tiny elbow flattening the pages of a fat book, and occasionally laughing out loud at the appearance of Scabbers the rat. (One hears that not all children retain the affection for reading that the Harry Potter books have inculcated: This isn’t true in my house at least.)
Scabbers turns out to mutate into something a bit worse than a rat, and the ancient charm of metamorphosis is one that J.K. Rowling has exploited to the uttermost. Another well-tested appeal, that of the orphan hero, has also been given an intensive workout with the Copperfield-like privations of the eponymous hero. For Orwell, the English school story from Tom Brown to Kipling’s Stalky and Co. was instantly bound up with dreams of wealth and class and snobbery, yet Rowling has succeeded in unmooring it from these considerations and giving us a world of youthful democracy and diversity, in which the humble leading figure has a name that – though it was given to a Shakespearean martial hero and king – could as well belong to an English labor union official. Perhaps Anglophilia continues to play its part, but if I were one of the few surviving teachers of Anglo-Saxon I would rejoice at the way in which such terms as “muggle” and “Wizengamot,” and such names as Godric, Wulfric, and Dumbledore, had become common currency. At this rate, the teaching of Beowulf could be revived. The many Latin incantations and imprecations could also help rekindle interest in the study of a “dead” language.
In other respects, too, one recognizes the school story formula. If a French or German or other “foreign” character appears in the Harry Potter novels, it is always as a cliche: Fleur and Krum both speak as if to be from “the Continent” is a joke in itself. The ban on sexual matters is also observed fairly pedantically, though as time has elapsed Rowling has probably acquired male readers who find themselves having vaguely impure thoughts about Hermione Granger (if not, because the thing seems somehow impossible, about Ginny Weasley). Most interesting of all, perhaps, and as noted by Orwell, “religion is also taboo.” The schoolchildren appear to know nothing of Christianity; in this latest novel Harry and even Hermione are ignorant of two well-known biblical verses encountered in a churchyard. That the main characters nonetheless have a strong moral code and a solid ethical commitment will be a mystery to some – like His Holiness the Pope and other clerical authorities who have denounced the series – while seeming unexceptionable to many others. As Hermione phrases it, sounding convincingly Kantian or even Russellian about something called the Resurrection Stone:
How can I possibly prove it doesn’t exist? Do you expect me to get hold of – of all the pebbles in the world and test them? I mean, you could claim that anything’s real if the only basis for believing in it is that nobody’s proved it doesn’t exist.
For all this apparently staunch secularism, it is ontology that ultimately slackens the tension that ought to have kept these tales vivid and alive. Theologians have never been able to answer the challenge that contrasts God’s claims to simultaneous omnipotence and benevolence: Whence then cometh evil? The question is the same if inverted in a Manichean form: How can Voldemore and his wicked forces have such power and yet be unable to destroy a mild-mannered and rather disorganized schoolboy? In a short story this discrepancy might be handled and also swiftly resolved in favor of one outcome or another, but over the course of seven full-length books the mystery, at least for this reader, loses its ability to compel, and in this culminating episode the enterprise actually becomes tedious. Is there really no Death Eater or dementor who is able to grasp the simple advantage of surprise?
The repeated tactic of deus ex machina (without a deus) has a deplorable effect on both the plot and the dialogue. The need for Rowling to play catch-up with her many convolutions infects her characters as well. Here is Harry trying to straighten things out with a servile house-elf:
“I don’t understand you, Kreacher,” he said finally. “Voldemort tried to kill you, Regulus died to bring Voldemort down, but you were still happy to betray Sirius to Voldemort? You were happy to go to Narcissa and Bellatrix, and pass information to Voldemort through them …”
Yes, well, one sees why he is confused.
Word, says the old James Joyce guy who gets kicks from James M. Cain, Michael Crichton, Susan Cooper, L. Frank Baum, etc. and so on and so forth and so fifth et al, high, low, and medium rare as well as Emily, Charlotte, Anne and all the Victorian gang with a special shout out just because I like her name to E. Nesbit.
// and so on and so forth and so fifth et al, high, low, and medium rare as well //
You and me both! I don’t know Susan Cooper. What should I read?
I love James Cain too, been reading him a lot recently.
And just so I’m clear: there is nothing wrong with loving Tom Clancy. It was the insinuation that I was somehow required to ALSO include Tom Clancy to counteract the “elitism” of Joyce – even though I had no desire to do so – that was annoying. Like: how dare she write about something she loves that I have no interest in? Why is she not including me? Let’s even the playing field!
No. Let’s not. Or how about this: send me 100 bucks and I’ll write you a post about Tom Clancy.
Cooper’s fine YA series of 5 titles is called The Dark is Rising.
1. Over Sea, Under Stone
2. The Dark is Rising
3. Greenwitch
4. The Grey King
5. Silver on the Tree
Am reading Cain’s The Cocktail Waitress, his final novel not published until some 35 years after he died. It’s great. However, my single favorite Cain experience takes place in Mildred Pierce when he begins 9 sentences in a row with the word ‘Then’. It is just so very cool.
YES to the Mildred Pierce “then” section. Extraordinary!!
And this, from Postman Always Rings Twice – one of the sexiest sex scenes ever written, and it consists of only 13 words:
Thanks for your Cooper recs! I wonder if my sister knows them – she teaches middle school English and reads all the hit books to keep up to speed with her students.
Ditto. What I figured out a long time ago was this: As long as you’re not calling it art, you should never feel compelled to defend your enjoyments. If somebody sees you reading Nora Roberts or watching Arachnoquake and asks you how you can stand to read or watch it, don’t engage. In the first place, they’re being rude, and in the second place, pleasure needs no defense. You only get in trouble when you try to come up with objective reasons why everybody should read or watch it.
On the other hand, if you’re calling something art and somebody disagrees with you, they need a stronger argument than “Clancy’s good enough for me.” Of course, what the elitism squad objects to isn’t Joyce, it’s art itself. Buncha boobs, I say .
// pleasure needs no defense //
YES.
And I will never ever watch Arachnoquake. hahaha Too scared of the suckers – your mention of a certain nightmare in The Writing Class was horrifying to me!!!, and I am afraid that one day I will have the same nightmare!
That being said:
I do like to see good writers (good being the operative word) “make a case” for why they think such-and-such a movie is good. Or at least overlooked, or unfairly maligned, or whatever. Not “you’re an idiot if you don’t understand why Showgirls is genius” – but an honest attempt to discuss what THEY see in it … well, that’s what good criticism is about. Roger Ebert said something like – it’s not my job to tell you whether or not YOU will like it, it’s my job to describe why I like it.
I’ve always wanted to do an in-depth piece on why G.I. Jane is not just a piece of trash but actually a pretty great character study, as well as a film with two powerhouse performances – one from Anne Bancroft and one from Viggo Mortensen – and I maintain that it features the best performance he has ever given, and with a career like his – that’s saying something!!
But yes: If you love something love it.
// Of course, what the elitism squad objects to isn’t Joyce, it’s art itself. //
That’s it. And … good lord … how did all of those people end up squatting on MY site? I finally was like, “Guys, you’re just torturing yourself hanging out here. I’m not gonna change. Seriously. Save yourselves. Reading a blog about books and movies should NOT be this upsetting.” hahaha Weirdos.
Interesting that Hitchens brings up the secular world of Harry Potter, I vaguely thought the same thing though not as eloquently. What annoyed me during the Harry Potter years were the people who poo-poohed the magic. More than once I read bloggers who wondered why the Weasleys were poor if they were wizards. That just tells me you aren’t even trying to understand, which is fine. Put down the book, turn off the movie and move on.
I saw the first Twilight movie with a bunch of devotees, some of whom had already seen it. They were crying and gushing and I was merely annoyed. Didn’t get it. And I had an almost visceral reaction to Kristin Stewart as Bella. I didn’t–don’t–get her appeal at all. My reaction was rather like Elaine Benes’ reaction to the English Patient.
I also love boarding school books. And the shoes books! Have you read them?
Oh, Ballet Shoes!!! That book launched me into such an intense fantasy world that it took me years to emerge. To be honest, I still haven’t fully recovered and I first read that book when I was 9 years old. I read some of the other ones, but Ballet Shoes was The One for me. It had everything I loved: orphans, theatrical training, and a (sort of) boarding school atmosphere. Plus British-ness.
Glorious!!
Did you read them all? Which ones were your favorite?
There was a Masterpiece Theater production of Ballet Shoes, which I also loved – it was on when I was a kid, so it was perfect timing.
Yes, Twilight is pretty silly. And Robert Pattinson just doesn’t “do it” for me – at least not in that role. If it was a young Matt Dillon? And I was 13 years old? It might have worked better for me. Kristen Stewart is very annoying in those films – but I did love her in Adventureland and she’s getting killer reviews for a new movie she’s in that just premiered at Cannes with Juliette Binoche – so I am very curious to see it.
// More than once I read bloggers who wondered why the Weasleys were poor if they were wizards. //
Wow, really?
Sheila, when and how did you do your Stalinst Purge? I recall you mentioning a few years back that you didn’t necessarily like the folks that came used to come over from Instapundit…
You used the word “concern-trolling” in your La Bare comments, there’s certainly that aspect in the being “disappointed” in your choice of What’s Up Doc?. I mean, what in the world is wrong with the people who won’t even allow you to be yourself inside your own head? Or allow you to be someone else inside your own head? If you don’t own that space, then there’s no such thing as ownership.
Buncha Commie Boobs, I say.
Mutecypher – God, it was so long ago. I got a couple of huge links from Instapundit (who has always been very nice to me, it’s nothing against him) – but the throngs of people who would come here with his links were often just horrifying. I came to dread an Instapundit link. Now, conversely, there were many nice people who came too – and many non-trouble-makers. But many of those who found me through an Instapundit link stuck around, and were sometimes nice, but sometimes – as I’ve described here – awful. Again, this was before Facebook – once FB hit a tipping-point, everyone stopped “hanging out” on blogs all day. But back in 2002, 2003, people hung out on my site all day. Sometimes it was super-fun. But other times … there were bad apples who ruined the whole bunch. EVERYTHING had a political filter. So many of them would try to turn it around to what THEY wanted to talk about. “Off topic, but did you see the post over on such-and-such. Any thoughts?” BAH.
The moment I realized the situation was totally out of control was during the week the Abu Ghraib news broke. I had no desire to write about it. I wrote about, oh, Cary Grant instead. I could FEEL the nervous-ness of the commenters – the sort of circling-around-like-hyenas waiting for me to “weigh in.” It’s so strange, in retrospect. Who do they think I am, a major news outlet? Finally one guy couldn’t take it anymore and wrote me an exasperated email 4 days after the news broke – “So when are you going to write about Abu Ghraib?”
This became a HUGE joke at the time. I’d post about American Idol and a friend of mine would comment, “Sheila, I cannot believe you have not commented on Abu Ghraib yet.” hahaha
Making fun of the bad ones in this way was one way I got rid of them.
I got sick of the fight. I was fighting all day long. And these were “regulars”. I sound like an old whore. Ha.
I let it go on for way too long – I was new at having a lot of commenters and new at blogging. I didn’t know how to keep control. I learned a lot of important lessons. Civility is paramount. You can disagree all you like – but no name-calling and no consistent contempt. I would ask honestly, “My site seems to upset you. Why do you hang out here?” Usually that was embarrassing enough to make someone go away and never come back. Another thing I learned was NOT to get into big email conversations. Many of them tried to “isolate” me this way – and I fell for it a couple of times. I am very careful who I engage with in email now, because of those experiences.
I have a pretty stern banning policy, although I haven’t had to ban people in a long time. I have a three strikes you’re out policy (unless a person’s first comment is rude, sneering, misogynistic, or attacks another commenter – In that case, one strike and you’re out. I will not have that kind of behavior on my site.)
I would say over the year 2003, 2004 – was when I slowly started making my site an unwelcome place for those regulars. No more politics. And I made it clear that I didn’t want politics in the comments section either. So that muzzled them. I would delete comments that violated the policy – and call it out publicly: “No politics. This is a post about Judy Garland’s acting, not her politics. Anything more interesting to say? Anything to ADD to the conversation? Or no?” Usually one interaction with me along those lines was enough for the individual to leave my site for good.
The other thing was homophobia. The level of homophobia in these commenters was startling – and it is just not the world I live in in my real life – and it was nothing I wanted to engage in. So I started calling it out, saying to this or that commenter: “No homophobia on my site. Thanks.” I wouldn’t even debate it. If they argued, I would ban them. Then they would email me in a RAGE and I would blacklist their email. I mean, honestly. So high maintenance.
It took a year. Over the course of that year the political people dwindled away and the film fans started coming over. Once there were more film nerds and culture geeks commenting here it became THAT kind of site – but I really had to make a conscious effort to get rid of that element. I look back and am amazed I tolerated it for as long as I did. And those were the days where I would regularly get 80, 90 comments on every single post. (Now, of course, the SPN posts are blowing that number out of the water. Yay!!)
There were a couple of posts I wrote which were the beginning of my conscious effort to drive away the people who were being such pains in my ass. One was a huge post praising PBS. I went on and on and on and on about my love of PBS. My love of PBS is sincere but to be honest I had no real desire to write a 5,000 word piece about PBS but it was, in a hilarious way, a declaration of war. Fascinatingly enough, NOBODY commented on it. 80 people sat around staring at that post afraid to comment on it.
So my ploy WORKED.
But good Lord, the amount of thought it took to get rid of those boobs.
Again, nothing against Instapundit. At least not for linking to me. He always linked in a positive way – sometimes about my film stuff – you know, like, “Sheila O’Malley is celebrating Casablanca today. Some really good stuff.” And then over they would come, the Mongol Hordes, wielding swords on horseback, roaring about how “today” “liberal Hollywood” would “never make a movie like that” and blah blah the same old sneering script.
So anyway. That’s the long-ass story of my very own Stalinist purge.
and just so I am scrupulously fair: a couple of people still read me who found me from those Instapundit links, and they are wonderful people. And I love it whenever they comment.
But those others!! And it was 10 to 1, I couldn’t fight them!
and it was sad for me, because I actually love political discussions. But I could not talk to these people.
I have no doubt that the same thing would have happened if it had been a huge liberal site who linked to me. It was an extremely divisive time, as you will recall. I suppose it still is now – but the conversation has diffused a bit with more outlets for people – like Twitter and FB – they don’t NEED to come hang out on one woman’s blog all day long and try to get her to “comment” on Benghazi or whatever. They have other places to hang out and that’s fine!
The “disappointed” comment was really fascinating to me.
The Internet and its little cliques seem to breed consensus – you know, you hang out in certain circles where everyone seems to be on the same page about everything. And so then you are shocked … SHOCKED … when someone doesn’t “fit in” with that.
The disappointment seemed to come because he liked so much of my other writing – and could not understand why I thought What’s Up Doc was so funny. It made him question my taste, it seemed. He had thought we were in total agreement!! Because Total Agreement is the Goal, right??
Weird.
Ballet shoes, followed by Theater Shoes. I didn’t know about the Masterpiece Theater production and now I feel a huge gaping hole in my heart for having missed this.
I love orphaned, English boarding school books, too. I also love anything set in the 1930s.
Yeah, the Weasley thing was really annoying. I remember reading it and composing a devastating riposte in my head and then pulling back. Life’s too short. And I really don’t want to be that person.
If I were a teenager, I’m pretty sure my response to Twilight would be different, too. I saw the Zefirelli production of Romeo and Juliet more times than I can count. And each time I bawled my head off. Though, not to be an elitist or anything, I can’t help feeling that my movie was light years ahead of the Twilight movies in terms of quality.
I mean, honestly, Twilight is trash – the movies even more so than the books. There’s a very funny Supernatural episode that makes fun of Twilight, with an “awkward” girl, who is always pushing her hair behind her ears, Kristen-Stewart-style, and saying stuff like “I’m so clumsy”, and this penetrating-eyed guy who may or may not be a vampire saying stuff like, “I don’t know what I’d do if I hurt you …” and it’s hilarious.
The Ballet Shoes Masterpiece Theater is out on DVD!! I own it! I am actually afraid to re-watch it though. I am afraid my memory of it will be ruined.
I love the older Weasley brothers. Their names escape me. They were totally peripheral but every time they entered the action, you knew it would be hilarious.
I see Emma Watson also starred in a Ballet Shoes version, speaking of Harry Potter. I know what you mean about revisiting some of those old favorites, though, it would be crushing to discover that something you loved was really mediocre.
Wow, didn’t know that about Emma Watson. Let me look it up.
My favorite of the Ballet Shoes girls was Petrova, the tomboy who wanted to be an aviatrix. I think that was her name. One of the things I found so fascinating about that book was the really grim rainy world of London – how scarce everything was – how they really had to scrimp/save/make their own dresses – all that. You could feel how tight funds were, and how money was a motivating factor. They had to learn a “trade,” if I recall.
I do vaguely recall the “When are you going to comment on Abu Ghraib?” meme. And wondering WTF? I didn’t realize it was part of a strategy. What a pain it is to get the wrong kind of attention.
It’s interesting to hear about how FB has changed the hanging-out aspect of blogs and comments. I hadn’t thought about that.
re: “Disappointed.” It gives you an unintended insight about a person who makes that sort of comment. There’s no “huh, maybe I missed something about this” if they agree with only 9 out of 10 items on your list.
Wuthering Heights with a Twilight cover… I recall when The English Patient movie came out (Hi, Rachel) that there were tie-ins to Herodotus’ The Histories because of the Gyges story in the book and movie. Good marketing, it got me to read Herodotus. There were probably complaints about that sort of thing back then.
I have friends on FB who still joke about Abu Ghraib. I’ll post some link to a photo of Rita Hayworth or whatever and some smartass will say, “Still no comment on Abu Ghraib?” I die laughing. People who don’t know the joke must think, “What the hell is happening.” We got a lot of mileage out of it. Anyone who seemed to mistake my blog for the White House press room got made fun of mercilessly and usually that did the trick – they’d vanish eventually.
Mutecypher – wow, in re: English Patient! I don’t remember that tie-in! Very nice indeed.
Kind of like, uhm, the Key of Solomon perhaps?? :)
Yes, they had to earn a living. I’ve always been fascinated by the resourcefulness of people who are living through hard times, whether it’s Jo from Little Women selling her hair or the Ingalls family having to eat their seed corn during the Long Winter or Lucky Jim smoking cigarette butts. That’s why I like the 1930s so much.
Me too! As a child it was a total eye-opener. Reading The Long Winter, like you say, or Ballet Shoes – or, hell, Dickens – which I came to early – really really gave me an education on life in other eras. It FASCINATED me. Children having to work. Children having to figure stuff out. Anne of Green Gables was sort of the “soft” version of that, because of course, she found a happy home.
Ah, the Key of Solomon. Gotta be sure to make those candles during the Day and Hours of Mercury, when the moon is waxed into submission. And made by an innocent girl. Who probably won’t be waxed.
I need to get a wall calendar going to keep it all straight.
BTW, how do you feel about Abu Ghraib?
Also, I should add that I avoid your Supernatural posts not because I’m disappointed in you but because I simply DO NOT HAVE TIME to add another enthusiasm and/or obsession to my ever-growing list of enthusiasms and obsessions.
hahahahahahahaha
I am sure there are those out there who are “disappointed” that I am writing about Supernatural and not, oh, Kurosawa. Whom I adore as well!
Seriously, never feel pressure – those posts are super fun for all of us participating, but I totally get it!!
There are certain shows everyone raves about and I’m like, “oh God. Do I have room for this?” Because I don’t do things halfway. Obvi.
though as time has elapsed Rowling has probably acquired male readers who find themselves having vaguely impure thoughts about Hermione Granger
Pretty funny that Hitchens thought this would be the extent of impure thoughts re: Harry Potter!
Love the essay though and the discussion. Boarding school narratives were never my jam (although Dahl’s Boy was formative for me) — for me it was always Famous Five — still have my careworn favourites in the bookshelf — and pony stories. You know, at its most elemental: I Wanted a Pony by Christine Pullein-Thompson. Yup. I wanted a pony. 15 guineas and off to the gymkhana.
// Pretty funny that Hitchens thought this would be the extent of impure thoughts re: Harry Potter! //
Ha, I thought of that too. Maybe there were tons of male readers who alREADY had crushes … on Harry? Or Ron? Hmmmm, Hitch?? :)
Did any of you all read Enid Blyton? I loved her too when I was a kid – siblings fighting crime in the “Adventure” series. Mountain of Adventure, Valley of Adventure, Tropical Island of Adventure, I can’t remember, there were a lot of them. Very British too.
The Adventure Series and the Famous Five were where it was at for me — never too interested in the Faraway or Wishing Chair stuff. Secret Seven a little bit although they were too domestic, and the children too young. But Julian and Dick and George were the stuff of fantasies! We went on so many adventures together in my head.
So English. There’s a scene in book three where they’re hiding in a cave with a sandy floor and Anne whips out a quick lunch of fresh bread and ham and chutney and lashings of fucking ginger beer. I’ve craved that experience all my life.
Enid Blyton, man! I only read the Adventure series, not the Famous Five, sorry I didn’t recognize them when I asked my Enid Blyton question!! I’m not sure why I didn’t move on over to those as well. I should have!
// Anne whips out a quick lunch of fresh bread and ham and chutney and lashings of fucking ginger beer. I’ve craved that experience all my life.//
hahahahaha
I know, The sheer British-ness of the vocabulary and the accoutrements and the quips – and yes, the chutney in a cave … I was amazed by stuff like that.
and saying stuff like, “We need to get the aeroplane to land on that mountain pass down there…”
Aeroplane. Aeroplane. So much nicer than “plane” or “airplane.”
Do British children eagerly read books about the American childhood experience? Or is this a one-way street, I wonder?
Like, was The Outsiders as huge a hit in England as it was here? I am sure there is an answer to that, I just don’t know it.
Forget Abu Ghraib, what do you think about Pablo Escobar’s escaped hippos?
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27905743
Good Lord, that was a great article. Thanks!! I didn’t know anything about the hippo situation!
// How much the hippos like Colombia can be judged from how much sex they are having. //
Good for them.
But still … what is to be done?? I hope a good solution can be found.
ICYMI…
More thought given to Pablo Escobar’s hippos. Maybe a good thing for the ecosystem?
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/26/science/pablo-escobar-hippos.html
Speaking as a colonial who read tons of English novels and Englishish fantasy, I’d never even head of the Outsiders until a couple of years ago. Babysitter’s Club and Saddleclub and so on through to Animorphs, etc were big hits though — and Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew were household names if you were a child who could stomach something written — gasp — before you were born.
I was a big Trixie Belden fan too – although I am sure they might seem totally ridiculous to me now. It was sort of the alternate Nancy Drew. A freckled tomboy detective. At least as I remember it.
I never read Enid Blyton, but I also fell in love with the food and the feasts. Specifically, Mole and Rat’s repast at Xmas when they go to Mole’s house (Wind in the Willows). Also Edmond’s Turkish delight and Lucy having tea with Mr. Tumnus.
I was obsessed with the delicious meal Lucy and the others had at the beavers’ cozy abode. I remember the thick soft butter in particular.
Sheila, This post kicked my butt in the most positive way. I recently wrote a blog post about my enjoyment of weight-loss/anorexia memoirs, and was feeling a bit defensive about putting that out there. I titled my post “Guilty Pleasures: Weight-Loss Memoirs”. After I read what you wrote here, I went back and amputated the GP part of the title. Thank you!
Bybee – Ha!! You are welcome!! That’s awesome. Perfect timing. No “guilt” in getting pleasure out of something!
//lashings of fucking ginger beer. I’ve craved that experience all my life.//
Lashings of ginger beer is one of those shibboleth phrases for people of a certain age, I think, at least in the UK.
I also love the thought of Ann tromping around the countryside carrying jars of condiments.
I’m loving this discussion on favourite reading. I used to love Blyton, couldn’t get enough, then loathed her, and now I think I might re-read just from a food point of view. Maybe someone could do a blog a la Julia and Julia – recreate all the meals and picnics in the Famous Five series. Food in Blyton is the stuff of fantasy and comfort just as much as the adventures she describes, and I remember feeling that when I read Blyton as a child – how delicious food and fabulous adventure were bound up together. JK Rowling understands this too. The food in Hogwarts is awesome.
Did anyone here read ‘A Traveller in Time,’ by Alison Uttley, about a girl who is transported back in time to live with the Babington family who were involved in a plot to rescue Mary Queen of Scots. A source of one of my earliest literary crushes. Uttley also wrote a book of recipes from her childhood growing up on a farm in the post-Victorian era – they are incredibly evocative of food and tastes, and a whole world, which has utterly disappeared.
I have not read A Traveller in Time but it sounds right up my alley!
I love that we all remember the food in these books. It’s incredible, the tactile and sensoral things that stick in the brain from this stuff read when we were kids. It was such a great contrast: the danger in the Adventure series, and then the cozy and elaborate food. If I was stuck in the middle of some Valley of Adventure, I would not have chutney in my bag, and my life is the poorer for it.
And yes – the Hogwarts food!!
//If I was stuck in the middle of some Valley of Adventure, I would not have chutney in my bag, and my life is the poorer for it.//
Maybe if I put a jar of chutney in my bag, I could actually find my way to the Valley of Adventure – like a magic homing device.
And as for pie …
Well, yes, pie is the key to it all.
Plus pig-in-a-poke. Every Tuesday.
I also love the thought of Ann tromping around the countryside carrying jars of condiments.
Where did she keep it all Helena? She was only 10!
Those sensory delights stick in the mind and some (cue Creamy Old England). Another favourite series was Redwall which were approx 85% elderberry wine and honey cakes, 10% hares saying toodle-pip and wot, and 5% grim and bloody death at the hands of creatures red in tooth and claw.
//Plus pig-in-a-poke. Every Tuesday.//
hahahahaha!
From The Sword in the Pie, oops, Stone – which I feel I must read again NOW:
//”Now breakfast,” said Merlyn.
The Wart saw that the most perfect breakfast was laid out neatly for two, on a table before the window. There were peaches. There were also melons, strawberries and cream, rusks, brown trout piping hot, grilled perch which were much nicer, chicken devilled enough to burn one’s mouth out, kidneys and mushrooms on toast, fricassee curry, and a choice of boiling coffee or best chocolate made with cream in
large cups.//
Followed by the bit about the walking mustard pot, which everyone loves.
And God, I clearly don’t take breakfast seriously enough.
Oh Lord, Sword in the Stone. My mouth is watering reading that section, which I remember dearly. Also: “mustard pot.” I grew up with mustard in a jar with a label on it bought in a store. So mustard in a POT? With a little spoon?? I loved that.
Speaking of swords in pie, Dean’s classic “Wart” moment with the dragon sword is one of his funniest bits of physical comedy and I still laugh every time I see it. Especially since he is set up as so super heroic as he approaches the sword, the inspirational music. And then … splat.
//Those sensory delights stick in the mind and some (cue Creamy Old England). //
haha!
Never heard of Redwall – tell me more?
And anything by KM Peyton. The Pennington books were a riot. Flambards – probably my defining pre/early teen reading experience. Could read and re-read, they stand the test of time. And I don’t even care about horses. Or biplanes.
Wow, I am gonna have to check out Flambards! Sounds right up my alley! The Redwall series is ridiculous, but very absorbing if you’re in the right spot for it. Set in an abbey peopled by the good vegetarian creatures of the forest, defended by warrior mice and other noble critters against stoats, ferrets, foxes. Vaguely racist in that creamy old English way. All the different animals have their own way of speaking and badgers are terrifying berserkers. And they all eat 24/7. Haven’t reread in a long while, but I remember the prose holding up rather well.
//Vaguely racist in that creamy old English way.//
Wind in the Willows has come in for various batterings for being classist/racist/just plain snooty to the ‘lower class’ animals – there’s even an anti-WITW, called Wild Wood written from the pov of the weasels. (Haven’t read it, tho.)
Right now, I am listening to a radio adaptation of the Bride of Lammermoor (narrated by David Tennant) which is almost persuading me to read Sir Walter Scott.
//Speaking of swords in pie, Dean’s classic “Wart” moment with the dragon sword is one of his funniest bits of physical comedy and I still laugh every time I see it. Especially since he is set up as so super heroic as he approaches the sword, the inspirational music. And then … splat.//
When he brought in explosives I put my hands over my eyes. It was all over for that sword. But it would have been awesome if Dean had pulled it out and become King of England. What a Season that would have been.
hahaha Right, if suddenly in the middle of that dragon hunt, he was swept away to Buckingham Palace against his will. “Well, you pulled that sword out of the stone, King Dean. That’s what happens.”
//“Well, you pulled that sword out of the stone, King Dean. That’s what happens.”//
I’m no monarchist but this would have swung me over to the side of the royals, right away.
With a name like mine, it is basically an ancestral requirement to show disdain for the British monarchs … but I definitely would make an exception in that case.
This is now turning into a Mark Twain novel and I LIKE it.
//This is now turning into a Mark Twain novel and I LIKE it.//
‘A Vampire Killing Yankee in the Court of King James’
I’m guessing the Campbell side of the family are Scottish, so there’s a bit of redressing the balance right there. The Royal coach will be replaced by a gleaming Impala. Pie will be declared the National Dish.
“Is that the speech from ….?” “It’s the only one he knows.”
//“Is that the speech from ….?” “It’s the only one he knows.”//
hahaha!
Yep. He could give it every friggin’ Christmas Day.
// avoid your Supernatural posts not because I’m disappointed in you but because I simply DO NOT HAVE TIME to add another enthusiasm and/or obsession //
Rachel – I can’t recommend these posts enough. Like you I don’t have the time to take on 9 seasons of TV, but I really look forward to the SN posts – despite never having seen a single episode. Sheila is sharing her love for the show, but she’s also giving a lecture series on the art and craft of telling stories with moving pictures, using SN as the text. Obviously I don’t know if that’s her intent, but it’s definitely the effect. Those posts are full of great stuff about the ‘nuts and bolts’ of the medium – so much to learn and take away to your own viewing!
Dan – so nice! Thanks! It’s been fun to pick it apart and see why it works in all its angsty operatic horror and drama and slapstick. I’m glad you’re enjoying them – very impressive especially since you haven’t seen the show!
WOW! Ms Shelia,
Somebody woke up raring to go today!
……….No shit Sherlock. Sorry: I’m not sorry. Douche.
Worry about yer own damn self! And the piece de resistance……….
FUCKS i dont give!! Yes, blow off some steam.
I think i hear Helen Reddy belting it out in the background.
I’m grateful, i think,that i survived the early rounds of your Stalinist purge. But of course those never really end while the man of Steel is about.
Fucks i don’t give. I have often felt that around self-important posers prattlin on.
I’ll be using that one. ———-Sean
Sean – ha! Good to hear from you as always.
// I think i hear Helen Reddy belting it out in the background. //
hahahaha Some things just get me going and people being weird about other people’s tastes or whatever is one of them.
I certainly have written a lot about it in this post if I supposedly don’t give a fuck – ha! – but I actually haven’t written too many posts on this particular subject and poor Hitchens’ piece was the launching-off point!
More aerodynamic. Like it would fly more reliably.
Totally agree.
Dan–I’m sure you’re right about the quality of the posts, but knowing me, I’d FEEL COMPELLED to watch to see for myself. Someday, perhaps, I’ll decide to watch the show and I’ll look up those posts. Of course, I won’t have an active comment thread in which to throw my 2 cents, but life is a series of choices.
I’m trying to think of a similar thing where I felt that way. Oh – I know – Mad Men. I was very late to the game. I don’t have TV hookup so I wasn’t jumping on the bandwagon. I was reading Matt Seitz’s Vulture re-caps and thinking, “I am thinking I will LOVE this show” but then 3 seasons passed, 4, 5 … and I tried to just avoid all commentary because I couldn’t deal with it. It was too much. I stopped reading about the show.
Finally, one day, I fired up Netflix and started watching. YEARS after everyone else. And yes, I became obsessed with the first episode. But I definitely resisted, especially once there were multiple seasons I was facing.
This is a really fun thread: adventure food (one of my favourite things EVER), childhood literary loves, shameless pleasure taking, interesting history of Sheila’s blog, and a little SPN thrown in…awesome.
Oh, and G.I. Jane. I love that movie. Best motivate-me-to-get-off-my-ass-and-exercise movie ever. And Viggo Mortensen is excellent in that movie. I remember trying to talk about his performance in G.I. Jane and people not registering that it was him. I had to pull up his IMDB page to get them to believe me. Maybe they didn’t want to remember…
Snobbishness always comes off like such an obvious defense mechanism that it seems to do the opposite of what people want it to. Reeks of fear to me; just like the ‘all working towards agreement idea’.
I understand some of the worry though. Not peoples’ worry over an individual’s enjoyment- that is so intrusive. Unless of course that person says “I like snuff films” or something like that in which case, link them to Quantico- but if no one is getting hurt then…leave them alone to suck out what pleasure they can from life. I understand worry directed at “the influence” is I think how Sheila put it when discussing some Judd Apatow comedies. But there should be a distinction made.
Sheila, very interesting to learn about the history of your site. I have never commented on another website before, but the tone of this space is so welcoming and content so fucking interesting I couldn’t resist. The story of your “Stalinist Purge” makes this all a bit more understandable.
Heather –
You may very well have motivated me to finally write that darn GI Jane piece. YES. Viggo! The DH Lawrence book of poems in her locker! I mean, I can’t even. It’s really great stuff – takes what could have been a cliche and turns him into this weird weird guy. LOVE it.
I love how all of us love “adventure food.” It’s so specific, all of our memories of these childhood books and the meals they would have.
// I understand worry directed at “the influence” is I think how Sheila put it when discussing some Judd Apatow comedies. But there should be a distinction made. //
There is definitely a distinction to be made, you’re right. I’ll have to think more about it. Some things become so hugely influential that EVERYONE imitates them – like Seinfeld – it seems to happen automatically, everyone just chasing the same kind of success success. And obviously there is a huge market for Judd Apatow’s films, and I’ve enjoyed a couple of them myself. But ugh, what it has done to rom-coms … a genre I love – yeah, I’m not a fan of THAT.
and in re: “Stanlinist purge” – hahaha To the real victims of Stalin, my apologies for my totally inappropriate analogy.
It’s been really interesting for me with these SPN recaps – where we’re getting almost 300 comments per post. Of course it’s the same small group of people commenting – but so far there hasn’t been ONE negative moment. Definitely disagreements – but nothing that crosses the line. The tone has been awesome. It really speaks, I think, to the power of the show and how fans can’t get enough of just talking about this stuff. But it took some getting used to – I was like, “Oh shit, is it about to get too big again??”
And in re: Instapundit. I’ve always been proud that my site is not political – I know for a fact I have flaming liberals and damn-near right-wing firebrands reading me and commenting – and they’re all awesome, because everyone loves movies and books – or at least the ones who hang out here. It gives me hope.
I have never wanted to have to moderate comments. It just slows things down. But it definitely took a very conscious effort on my part to create a site where I wanted to hang out, let alone everybody else. I finally just realized: “Wait a second. Something is OFF here if they think I’m the kind of person who needs to ‘weigh in’ on Abu Ghraib – they are not getting me at all – and I need to take responsibility for that.”
Anyway, Heather, I’m glad you’re here.
I’ve been slowly working on the re-cap for the first episode of Season 2 – yay! Dean in scrubs! Sam with a bum eye! Tessa!! – but I have a couple of paid gigs I have to get out of the way first.
It’ll be fun to get back to it though. Season 2 is awesome. :)
I think the perfect example of how strange and raucous my site was back then – 2003, 2004 – was that in a 24-hour period I was called (by different people) “shallow” and “elitist.” Normally you get called one or the other. But I was called both! Ha!! I wrote about American Idol or something, and some snob said, “I had no idea you were so shallow” or something along those lines. The following day I wrote about Seamus Heaney or whatever, can’t remember, and someone else said, “Way too elitist for me.”
It was hilarious. I am shallow AND elitist?? Now THAT is a neat trick.
I wanted to make it the tagline to my site: “Sheila O’Malley. Bringing You Shallow Elitist Content Since October 2002.”
But it was a clue that something was a little off/
But I still like that. Shallow? Elitist? Sure, I’ll cop to both – and in the same damn day!!
I read and enjoyed Harry Potter, starting about the time “Goblet of Fire” came out. I was mostly curious about them due to the hype that surrounded that book, and the delay of its publication which lead to some hysteria on the part of its fans. When I had kids and they were old enough, I read the first 3 books with them. While I agree about the “surfacey” nature, and the fact that Rowling’s plot sometimes needs to be propped up in increasingly confusing ways (I completely lost the thread of how the Deathly Hallows came to be under Harry’s control in the final book, for example), I also found that the series hit a lot of my buttons, and had some serious stuff going on as well. For instance, I love the message that it’s not the stray thoughts you have or even the basic components of who you are that matters in the overall balance of life. What matters is how you respond to them and what you do with them. This is a powerful thing to realize, and I hope my boys may have gotten something out of it.
For me, Harry Potter as a cultural phenomenon can’t be divorced from the films. The books and the movies together are a remarkable achievement. I’m so pleased that the films by and large capture the sense of wonder that the books present–and I love them even more for giving me a chance to introduce my boys to the likes of Richard Harris, Alan Rickman, Maggie Smith, Ralph Feinnes, Jim Broadbent, Helena Bonham Carter–I could go on and on, here! The movies are a who’s who of contemporary British stars, absent only Helen Mirren. Their peculiar power is enhanced by the decision to keep the same group of child actors throughout, rather than recasting them. The viewer gets to see these kids grow up before the camera, for good and ill (I felt so sorry for Rupert Grint in Goblet of Fire, his gawky early teendom contrasting with Daniel Radcliffe’s emerging good looks). The way the books and movies played with and against each other over the course of what, ten years?, will stand as a remarkable moment in pop culture, whether or not either retain their popularity.
On the other questions raised by the article, whether books like Harry Potter can inspire a lifelong love of reading, and how snobbery works-or doesn’t, rather-in an artistic context, I might have an unusual perspective due to my profession. I thanked you in the SPN posts for highlighting the show’s appreciation of librarians, since I am one. Part of my job is management of the adult fiction collection for my library, and it has been an eye-opening experience. My goal is to be inclusive, but not in the same way as a bookstore might be. I need to be sure that what people want is on my shelves, while also collecting what needs to be there in order for the collection to be well-rounded. My hope is that, even as I sigh over having to order 12 copies of “Fifty Shades of Grey”, the fact that our patrons can get that book might then lead them on into the collection to pick up something else. Even if it’s only better written kink like Sylvia Day or Anne Rice. And meanwhile, I keep copies of Lolita and D.H. Lawrence on hand, just in case.
I also experience on a daily basis the way a phenomenon title affects the material that comes after it. This is nothing new, of course, but it’s endlessly fascinating to me. Harry Potter begets Septimus Heap and Artemis Fowl. The Hunger Games leads to Divergent and City of Bones. On the adult side, Steig Larsson hits big and suddenly every Scandinavian crime author is being imported, and we get Jo Nesbo, Camilla Lackberg, Lars Kepler, along with renewed interest in the likes of Hanning Mankell. I wait with baited breath to see what Gillian Flynn’s “Gone Girl” might lead to–perhaps a run on neo-noir? Of course, in all this, the good stuff (or the popular stuff) will stick around, while the poor imitations will fall away.
As for the judgement aspect of pop culture, well, the city doesn’t pay me to pass judgement. But you’re absolutely right, it goes both ways. I remember with pain hearing a parent trying to cajole her child to put down the Harry Potter and read Huckleberry Finn instead. I wanted to say to her, let him read what he wants now and if he comes to Twain later, great! Who knows what Harry might lead him to? If he moves on to the Lord of the Rings or Neil Gaiman, that’s wonderful. If he re-reads Rowling over and over for the next few years, that’s ok, too. What snobs on both sides wind up doing is taking away opportunity from themselves, which is sad in my book. Who says you can’t like both Shakespeare and Stephen King? Joyce and Supernatural? What calls to you, embrace!
The only art that I personally dislike is the impersonal kind, the kind produced solely for commercial purposes. James Patterson is the bane of my existence for this reason–he’s far more a commercial property than a storyteller. Same with Nora Roberts. I mean, I’m sure she is good at what she does BUT, I never get a sense that any story she tells is personal to her. If you look at her backlist, she has been extraordinarily successful at riding trends. In the 80’s, when sweeping family sagas were in vogue, that’s what she wrote. Then when “Dynasty” became popular, she added in elements of sin and criminal activity. Now she has several series of paranormal romance. Who is this woman?
Anyway–all of this is by way of agreeing with you that the term “guilty pleasure” should be stricken from our vocabulary, seen for the condescending nonsense that it is. And I am in the weird position of being able to say that with certainty.
Barb – fascinating news from the front lines of a librarian!! Love it!
Love your thoughts on how trends open up – how one successful book leads to other successful series – and then you wonder what might be next?
Deathly Hallows really lost me at points, too – my favorite of the series was Order of the Phoenix – I loved its darkness and angst, and it really seemed to me to capture adolescence in a really palpable way. Even with all the magical elements. Everyone was so BUMMED OUT in that book. :) I liked that Rowling didn’t shy away from that.
And I still think that the opening chapter of the first book is a masterpiece in its own small way. Can’t be improved upon. You MUST read further. You MUST.
Goosebumps, still:
Dumbledore turned and walked back down the street. On the corner he stopped and took out the silver Put-Outer. He clicked it once, and twelve balls of light sped back to their street lamps so that Privet Drive glowed suddenly orange and he could make out a tabby cat slinking around the corner at the other end of the street. He could just see the bundle of blankets on the step of number four.
“Good luck, Harry,” he murmured. He turned on his heel and with a swish of his cloak, he was gone.
A breeze ruffled the neat hedges of Privet Drive, which lay silent and tidy under the inky sky, the very last place you would expect astonishing things to happen. Harry Potter rolled over inside his blankets without waking up. One small hand closed on the letter beside him and he slept on, not knowing he was special, not knowing he was famous, not knowing he would be woken in a few hours’ time by Mrs. Dursley’s scream as she opened the front door to put out the milk bottles, nor that he would spend the next few weeks being prodded and pinched by his cousin Dudley … He couldn’t know that at this very moment, people meeting in secret all over the country were holding up their glasses and saying in hushed voices: “To Harry Potter – the boy who lived!”
Sheila–Yes, it’s the coming at nine seasons in that deters me. I’m a compulsive completist!
It’s kind of like Doctor Who. I’ve never watched it. I probably should. But honestly it’s overwhelming. Where do I even BEGIN??
Probably someone here will be able to answer that.
Barb –
re: James Patterson and Nora Roberts, and keeping with the theme of food… I think we are narrivores – story-consuming animals. Or stories are part of the ‘omni’ in omnivores.
And then there’s Hannibal. I wonder if he ever refers to human flesh as “long pig.”
//Probably someone here will be able to answer that.//
*Raises hand*
Begin speaking. Walk me through it. But be gentle. I know nothing. Help!!
Shelia-
Oh, yes, the opening of Harry Potter is so beautiful, and sets up so much of the series’ atmosphere and its characters. I also love the description of Vernon Dursley and the owls that follows. Put that together with how Harry grows up in his closet under the stairs, and I felt like I had found a cousin of Sarah Crewe!
I think my favorite of the series, though, is probably Goblet of Fire. Voldemort’s “resurrection” in the graveyard gives me chills every time.
mutecypher-
Re: Hannibal. I have yet to watch that, but it’s on my list. I can’t imagine him using the term “long pig”, though! Maybe around some law enforcement type. When I hear the term though, I think of Dean, and how he was so proud of himself to work the term into the conversation. Which episode was that? (I miss that guy—)
“Narrivores”–I like! Stories are essential to our survival as far as I’m concerned. And any story can provide nourishment, I guess–though some better than others. That’s the beef I have with storytellers who approach their work as if it were a commodity. I don’t think Patterson or Roberts necessarily started out that way. I think maybe they allowed it to happen?
A good friend of mine used to work on James Patterson’s website and his marketing efforts. She had some awesome stories. She’s actually in one of the posters for one of his books. I’ll see if I can track it down.
But yes, those are Art as Product. Sheer Product. I’m not into that myself – and have a hard time with writing that isn’t eloquent of something else, of an artist trying to express something. And that could be Enid Blyton or Noel Streatfield, as we’ve discussed here, or Charlotte Bronte or Joseph Heller. I don’t care. I just want to feel a PERSON behind there.
Well Classic Dr Who and New Who are different enough that you can treat them as separate but related shows.
Classic Who – a weekly serial, 20-odd minutes in length, with each story generally running 4 to 6 episodes. Legendarily bad special effects with a ‘Boy’s Own’ flavor (no snogging).
New Who – weekly one hour show, mostly stand alone stories with various elements carried over. Respectable FX and recognition of sex.
The Doctor – Main character of both. Time Lord from the planet Gallifrey. Can regenerate into new form, a plot device they came up with when the original actor was leaving the show. So – same character & continuity, any different actors and portrayals. Travels through time and space helping folks. Does not carry a gun or have super powers – is very much a Trickster figure.
Plenty of folks only know & watch New Who, so starting with season one is as good a plan as any, and most of it is available via Netflix streaming.
Classic Who – I would recommend the first two seasons of Tom Baker’s time as the Fourth Doctor – IMHO the height of Classic Who and the best way to get a feel for the appeal of that series. But I admit I’m biased. Those were the seasons that WGBH was airing waaaaay back when I got hooked.
Dan – that was an excellent and concise tutorial. I totally appreciate it. I get very LOST with all of the Who commentary out there. There’s just so much of it.
So maybe I’ll start with New Who and go from there.
Thank you!!
Barb –
I have a lot of happy memories reading the Harry Potter books out loud to my daughter, and us trading off reading them aloud as she got older and the latest one would come out. She hasn’t done much reading since for pleasure, but she just recently grabbed The Divine Comedy off the shelf and started reading. I showed her where the glossary and some of the explanations of the verses were in the back of the book and explained why it had two book markers. I asked her why she picked up the book and she said she wanted to get some culture. I also suspect she is looking to get ideas for the stories she wants to tell in animation. Stealing from Dante, Hell Yeah!
I remember the two of us reading one of the Artemis Fowl books together. Not the same quality as HP.
Narrivores (or should it be narravores? I bet a librarian would have a better word sense than I do): I think the appeal of Patterson or Roberts is much the same as any chain restaurant’s. If you’re in the mood for it, you know exactly what you’ll get – from Spokane to Key West, a Big Mac is a Big Mac. Or from airport to beach, a Patterson story is a Patterson story.
Wow – Dante – I am very impressed!!
Great post and wonderful comments, per usual!
I’m with you, Sheila-I have never second guessed the things I am passionate about, and it never occurred to me to do so. If something speaks to me, if I care about it-then it automatically has value, right? This post reminded me of my last book club meeting, where we discussed Sense & Sensibility by Joanna Trollope-the first book released as part of The Austen Project. The consensus was that it was a terrible thing to do, and it was contributing to the “dumbing down” of the reading public. My thoughts were that I enjoyed the book, and if it led even one person who might not have thought of Jane Austen, to pick up the original material-then hurrah!
Another example, , my daughter always loved books, but she was slow to learn to read. In second grade, she became interested in manga, and I truly believe that is what set her up as the reader she is today. I used to get comments from other parents, saying that they would never let their children read those kind of books, they wanted them to read chapter books. My feelings were that she was reading and more importantly-getting used to having that book in her hand, and I had a gut feeling that it was going to be a good thing. Well, 11 years and many thousands of book buying dollars later-I can say I was right! As someone said above, you never know where books will take you-so I say bring on the fun covers of classics-the “reimaging” of Austen-and like you said, let your freak flag fly!!
Maureen – that’s a wonderful story about your daughter, and I love how you supported her, and understood she was getting used to reading/holding books – an important step sometimes.
I mean, Zadie Smith wrote an entire novel that was basically a re-do of Howards End – and the literati went NUTS for it. Granted, she’s a superb writer – but she too was using someone else’s classic book as a launching-off point for her own fascinating speculations and ideas. The gatekeepers get weird – THEY want to anoint the ones who “get” to do stuff like that.
mutecypher:
//Narrivores (or should it be narravores?//
How about Narrivores to be correct and narravores to be cool?
My best to your daughter and her new literary adventure. You know, there are a couple of classics that have been done via graphic novel. I can’t remember if The Divine Comedy is one of them, but I wouldn’t be surprised. She might like the visual tickle, since she is into animation.
It is almost Wed… I’m going to try to make this one count.
Barb: //What calls to you, embrace!//
Nice! Hats off to librarians. I want to hear more on the ebb and flow of literary trends. What are your thoughts on genre categorization?
Rachel: Just watch the first season of SPN so you can play with us during the season two recaps. You don’t have to watch the rest…cough, cough…;)
Sheila: //You may very well have motivated me to finally write that darn GI Jane piece.//
mmmmwwwwhahahahah.
But seriously, slamming the door in her face, giving her poetry- the man lives ‘out there’- and Jane hoarding and sharing her wadded up food (does that count as Adventure Food?), the giant cigar and Anne Bancroft’s hair, let alone smirk. Love it!
Anne Bancroft with her glasses of bourbon, and her steely-eyed Southern charm – crazy camp performance, so much fun.
And Jason Beghe, whom I love (and not just because he very publicly exited a famous cult and has now become an international spokesman AGAINST brainwashing).
And Jim Cazaviel.
But yeah, Viggo almost steals the whole thing. In those horrible shorts.
Reminiscent of the horrible shorts worn by Haley to go hiking in “Wendigo.”
Heather –
The dinner table conversations have been fun.
“How could he put Aristotle in Hell?”
“Well, Limbo, not Hell.” And then a conversation on notions of salvation, and the importance for Dante of Christ’s sacrifice. None of this “just be a good person” stuff if you want to get to Heaven.
“And Hector is in Limbo, didn’t Dante know he’s a fictional character?”
“Do you think Stan Lee was the first person to want all his favorite heroes in one place?”
A few days later she’s quietly reading and then pops out with, “Oh my god, he put a pope in Hell. He put a pope in Hell! How could Dante put a pope in Hell?” Followed by a discussion on primogeniture and the consequences for societies when there aren’t many avenues for ambitious people to scratch that itch. It’s fun to teach someone who wants to learn.
We have Dore’s drawings for The Divine Comedy and Boticelli’s. I may look around for a graphic novel version – or let her do that search herself if she’s interested.
This is so great!!
Did you ever see the “Comic Strip” parody episodes of the Famous Five?
Ken! You popped into my mind the other day, coincidentally – wondered how you were doing. You and Dan, on this thread, are the old-timers, you’ve been around here since almost the very beginning – and I truly appreciate it.
And I do not know the parody episodes of which you speak – I wonder if Jessie does!
mutecypher-
There’s one version of the Divine Comedy in graphic novel form, by Seymour Chwast. I was just taking a look at it. If you prefer the traditional drawings, I’m not sure it’ll be to your liking–the illustrator takes a simple, line-drawn approach, and has modernized the tale with his language, and by putting Virgil and Dante in 30’s era garb–fedora, trench coat, bowler, etc. There’s a fair bit of humor in the drawings, but not much poetry in the dialogue.
The same adaptation is available in The Graphic Canon v.1. If your daughter is interested in illustration, you might want to check this out–though you may also want to vet it first, depending on her age. There are depictions of sex and violence sprinkled throughout. It’s a series of books that starts with Gilgamesh and continues up through time, showcasing excerpts of different author/illustrator adaptations of important works. It’s a mixed bag, I think, as the chapters vary as wildly in tone and visual style as you might expect. Some parts you may like, some you probably won’t. (I myself tried to read it straight through, which was probably a mistake–I didn’t even make it to the Divine Comedy!)
mute cypher:
//“Do you think Stan Lee was the first person to want all his favorite heroes in one place?”//
hahahahaha. But what happens now that Limbo is gone? They head out for shawarma?
Heather-
Thanks! What would you like to know?
On genre-fying a collection, I have mixed feelings. We do not separate our fiction collection by genre here, a decision which was made long before I signed on. This is both good and bad, I think. The decision was made both to save the time of the catalogers and to encourage patrons to browse outside their comfort zones. Also, it can be difficult to quantify the genres. How granular do you get? If a writer works in several genres, do you split his or her books up into those locations? What do you do with classics/short stories/literary works?
In my experience, though, patrons often expect us to have the genres mapped out–ex. they will come up to the desk and ask for the westerns. Some hate to be told that they will need an author’s name first! The other downside is that I see good books that may not get checked out once they come upstairs to the general Fiction collection, simply because people don’t know to look for them, that they belong to this or that genre. Genres are a bookstore approach, but I think that type of organization is what most people expect when they come in for the first time.
I have made inquiries, a few times, about taking steps towards genrefication in my library, but have met resistance so far.
What are your thoughts on the subject?
Barb – That’s really interesting!
It reminds me of the olden days when you would go to a video store and the way they would categorize stuff sometimes made it impossible to find what you want. I’m talking Blockbuster type stores, not more niche-independent video stores. I would be like, “Where the heck are the John Wayne films?” And sometimes they’d be put together in the Action category – where I never would have looked. You know, I had to imagine myself a Blockbuster employee and imagine how THEY would categorize something in order to find, oh, The Apartment. Is that a “romantic comedy”? Is it a “drama”? Is that a “classic”? You just never knew.
//I have gotten it from all sides, and I could fill a warehouse with the fucks I do not give.//
Ha! I love this.
I’ve gotten so used to not having anyone share my interests (in my “real” life) that I long ago stopped caring what anyone thinks of my reading/viewing habits. I like what I like. I don’t need to defend myself. Though, if provoked enough, I’ll pull out the old “I majored in English Literature” card.
It’s strange, how people expect others to only enjoy certain types of entertainment. That liking one thing means excluding the other. There are all sorts of weird insecurities about personal tastes.
I am a tad hypocritical when it comes to things like Twilight. I’ve, teasingly, given friends a hard time for liking it…but really, I just want them to admit that the books are trashy. Embrace them for what they are!
I loved Sailor Moon as a teen. One of my favourite shows is Ouran High School Host Club, for God’s sake! They’re ridiculous. But enjoying them doesn’t limit my ability to enjoy or understand “art.”
Twilight seemed fairly innocuous to me although I have read a couple of pretty compelling blog-posts about how it is basically a Manual for an abusive relationship. Sure, yes, I can see that. But maybe that’s why it’s also hot to the girls reading it? It’s not like Twilight is the first book to depict sex in a twisty powerful dark way – sort of “you are drawn to it, but you fear it, he will overpower you, you will resist”, etc. – I don’t know. Rhett basically rapes Scarlett. And she loves it. I’m not saying that’s a good or a healthy “lesson” for society – but I don’t think art is there ONLY to teach lessons. It’s there for all kinds of reasons.
I think maybe people were over-thinking Twilight. Which tends to happen when it is GIRLS who flock to loving something. It makes the what-whats of the world very nervous. What does it mean?? Girls loving something en masse? SCARY!
“I think maybe people were over-thinking Twilight. Which tends to happen when it is GIRLS who flock to loving something. It makes the what-whats of the world very nervous. What does it mean?? Girls loving something en masse? SCARY!”
I’ve actually over-thought Twilight, too. I read them when my daughter did and found them compelling. (Particularly the second book – when you think about it, nothing happened and yet you read to the end.) As someone who never thought I’d marry and have children, I saw the books, but the films in particular, from an outside perspective. They focus on the emotional beats (tropes?) of a young woman’s life.
A young man’s (the Hero’s) journey may be to overcome internal/external obstacles in order to achieve his goal and win the girl, the end. Whereas, a young woman’s journey starts with choosing the man she wants to be with, 4ever. It’s a big choice; if you have children, you are attached to that man for the rest of your life (or your children’s lives.) Not something to take lightly.
Once the choice is made, we have a series of events that are extremely important to a young woman. Many girls dream and plan their wedding dresses, their bridal showers, and their weddings from a young age. These moments are big deals to young women; they signify a change in relationships with their friends and family and a change in their lifestyle (from single and looking to, well – not.) The 3rd (?) movie really high-lighted this in what it chose to focus on. (And Bridesmaids riffed on the whole experience, too).
Then, we have sex, pregnancy and child birth. Yes, these events change us – change our bodies, our lives, our outlook, everything. Most women don’t like to hear this, but pregnancy DOES suck the life out of you. Your body is working to make another. And child birth- well, if you’re lucky everything goes smoothly. Child birth is still the number one killer of women in the world (yes, I know that would likely be in countries without Western medical care, however, not unheard of here, too.)
Here’s the thing, though. Often, women become heroes on behalf of someone else, usually their children. You hear of women with children with special needs and they become power-houses of fund-raising and political lobbying, change for the better anyway. For women (I’m generalizing, I know!), it’s after they’ve had children that they become confident, then that they step onto the public stage and become “heroes”. And their hero journey begins. (Erin Brockovich comes to mind).
I think Twilight, the movies especially, really caught those moments in a woman’s life and hence the appeal. ( Also, during a young woman’s choice of man phase, she is the center of attention, then again during the events leading to the wedding, and the wedding itself. After that, she is ‘mother’ and is relegated to the background. So those moments are your glory period to be planned carefully.) I wonder how intentional all that is on the part of the writer? I have a feeling the directors and writers of the last three movies knew what they were doing.
Bainer – wow. This is absolutely fabulous. Thank you so much for all of it.
I have read quite a bit of commentary on Twilight – mainly because I feel defensive when something that young girls choose to love is attacked so harshly (whereas things young boys choose to love – like comic books – are seen as “boys will be boys,” or whatever). Yes, girls like comic books, and boys like romances, too … but in general …
It’s when girls go apeshit that the culture starts worrying obsessively. Footnote for Elvis.
(My point is: when teenage girls start screaming, en masse, it would behoove the culture to follow their lead and at least see what the fuss is about, as opposed to sniffing derisively. Because those screaming teenage girls led us to Elvis and The Beatles. Come on. They were RIGHT.)
I love your take on all of this. I am not a wife or a mother – maybe someday I’ll be the first one. I have come to terms reluctantly with the fact that I will never be the second one. But I love your thoughts on how important these issues are – culturally – and how much they dominate a young girl’s fantasy life. (They never dominated mine. Maybe that’s why I’m a spinster? Pardon me – I am trying to reclaim that word. :) I got no problem with it – spinsters get shit DONE. They have less distractions!!)
But your point is also taken that motherhood can bring out levels of productivity that people didn’t even know they had. My friend Farran, who just published her first novel, has three children – and she said that having children made her even more productive with her writing – because she HAD to use the time available (which was limited) and she had to use it WELL. I love that.
But this is a wonderful breakdown of the various issues at work in those books. Very positive over-thinking!!
The books/movies clearly tapped into a seriously powerful strain in their audience – and that should never be treated with scorn. We should attempt to understand it – even if we are no longer 14 year old girls – because through such things, we understand the world better.
I enjoyed the books. I probably would have lost my MIND about them had I read them when I was 14.
Also, the chastity element. It would have appealed to me. I was a late-bloomer and not ready at all for sex with boys – so all of that “we can’t do it” stuff would have appealed to me tremendously as well. Because I could have seen myself in that. Not, you know, dating a vampire, but not being ready to take that leap. And having a guy be okay with it, as opposed to mean and dropping me like a hot potato? APPEALING.
Thanks, Sheila! Yes, the chastity part is also important. (Even if it comes from a Mormon writer.)
I, too, never planned on becoming a wife and mother. All the things I’ve learned, as a mother, have come as a surprise to me; I see it all from an “outsider’s” perspective. For example, moving to the suburbs. I looked down my nose at the “‘burbs” growing up but I didn’t grow up in that environment so had no idea what I was sneering at. I moved around a lot and went to many different schools: imagine my surprise to learn there’s a whole rhythm to a school year I’d never noticed. That the curriculum builds and layers on from each year to the next. It seems so obvious, but only if you had the kind of stable life that would make you bored with it.
I’m around your age (close to 50!). One of the revelations to me, with kids in the suburbs, is seeing how involved fathers are. Seeing them kiss and hug their kids (!), grocery shopping, playing with them. My dad was a university professor (as most of my friends dads were) and they were never around, off at their important jobs. When they were around, they were intimidating and everything revolved around them. I never saw dads hugging and kissing their kids.
Dads – men – get a bum rap these days, in my opinion. We rarely hear about the “good guys” who worry about supporting their families and who just do the right thing. I guess they just aren’t as interesting!
I thought I would be a writer and I was in love with all the ‘beat’ writers. I thought that was how my life would go – hah! I never planned anything; I sneered at “those” girls who planned their wedding etc. A friend from college asked me to be her maid of honour. I had no idea what my role was and failed spectacularly. It was the first (and only) Catholic wedding I’d been to. All that rising and kneeling and talk of blood and bodies; I honestly thought I was going to faint. It went on forever.
I was married at NYC City Hall. It was an assembly line;They were hollering next before the ink was dry.
Do you remember Coliseum Books at 57th and Broadway? It’s gone now. I worked there in ’85-86. Best job ever. That’s where I met my husband.
I’m getting long-winded and off the point. It’s the idea of planning that I wanted to talk about. A woman I met told me she knew she wanted to stay at home with her kids so she saved all her money and when she married she paid for the house, in full. She feels no guilt or pressure to contribute financially as a stay-at-home mom. Wow, planning!
I’ve told my daughter to pick a career where she makes money. Not to follow her dream job or whatever, especially since she doesn’t know what that is yet. I told her to make lots of money while she can. That way, if she wants to stay at home with her kids she won’t feel bad and, if it’s job in demand she can keep a toe in while at home. Or, if she doesn’t have kids, that when she does discover her “dream” job, she’ll have the money saved to go for it. (Even if she does have kids…) She’s chosen to go into Computer Programming.
Sorry for the long-windedness of this post! But Twilight really opened my eyes to the idea of planning, of the importance of these events to a woman’s life, the impact they have, and, hence to my own daughter’s decisions.
You’re right, when all the girls go “ooh” there is a reason, and it shouldn’t be dismissed.
Bainer – oh my gosh, Coliseum Books!!! I LOVED that place. I used to take dance class near there – well, sort of near there – over at Alvin Ailey – Dance class was three mornings a week – so on my wandering back to the subway after class to go back downtown, I’d just have to stop by Coliseum. That bookstore was impossible to just walk past – I HAD to go in. It was horrible when it closed down – it was one of the first bookstores to go, as I recall. My time visiting there regularly was 95 through 98. And I do remember loving the staff too!
Your stories are wonderful – I can really hear where you are coming from. It’s an interesting perspective – and I actually can really relate to it, even though my details are different.
// Dads – men – get a bum rap these days, in my opinion. We rarely hear about the “good guys” who worry about supporting their families and who just do the right thing. I guess they just aren’t as interesting! //
Amen to that, girl!
I have very ambivalent feelings about “planning” – mainly because I didn’t plan, and I feel the repercussions of that now. In a weird way, the script I wrote – the one that was just (partially) turned into a movie – is about the “planning” aspect of women’s lives – especially with that biological clock thing. If you take that seriously, then you need to plan. Women know, in their bones, their bodies are made that way, that they don’t have forever. Oh well, though, I didn’t plan.
I am not complaining. My life is bohemian and interesting and I’m somewhat of an outlaw. (I prefer that term to “pathetic”. hahahaha. The culture tells me every single day that I am off the rails – it’s relentless – and it’s pretty much ceased to bother me.) At my age? Never married? No kids? I know there are others out there like me – a couple of my friends, for example – but we are definitely on the outside of that main cultural narrative. Therefore, I like “outlaw” as the term. It sounds more … deliberate, rather than “oh woe is me.” Enough of that.
But sometimes, in darker moments, I do wish I had planned more – and realized in my 20s that I wanted to have kids and a partner and get serious about it.
But whatever. That’s not the way it went. Shouldn’t dwell upon it. There is lots of good stuff in being free and unfettered. I do appreciate it.
I find your insights fascinating – especially when it comes to the “planning” aspect of Twilight. I think it’s extremely insightful.
Barb — //Also, it can be difficult to quantify the genres//
You mean, you don’t have a separate section for the paranormal historical romance? This is outrageous!
I also work in a public library, so I understand the difficulty in assigning a genre to a book (we don’t have separate sections, but we do put genre stickers on the spines). That being said, I cannot describe the joy I experienced the first time I saw a Highland Vampire Romance novel. I think I laughed for 10 straight minutes. Finally, the two popular genres meet!
Barb –
Thanks for the references. I’ll forward those to my daughter and see what she thinks. She’s 18 and in college, so she gets to decide what she likes. I did not think that Blake’s and Dali’s complete works for The Divine Comedy were in book form, but I did discover that they both are available at Amazon. Blake’s book is about $14, while the Dali available is $3,115 (and used). I put the Blake on order and I’ll see if I can find a cheaper Dali.
For anyone interested, I have a Pinterest folder( feed?) for Dante and Beatrice (not the entire Comedy) and that relationship has been the inspiration for some beautiful art.
http://www.pinterest.com/mutecypher/dante-and-beatrice/
Cool!!! Thank you!
Heather – I gotta find Joss and pitch “The Avengers In Hell” for his fourth movie. The trick will be to keep the Hulk out of the 5th circle, since that’s for people with anger issues. And he’s angry all the time.
//And I do not know the parody episodes of which you speak – I wonder if Jessie does!//
Um, I do :-). As far as I remember, it was part of a series called ‘The Comic Strip Presents,’ iirc. Lashings of double entendres and bags of bad puns. I’ve not watched it for years, but a quick scan through the clip indicates that picnics and farmhouse teas figure prominently.
Here’s a link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUo4-SwSdyM
It starred Jennifer Saunders, Dawn French, Ade Edmonson, Robbie Coltrane, with occasional involvement from Keith Allen. Rik Mayall was also part of that group.
Well, the cast list alone is fabulous.
Actually, watching the clip now … there’s a conversation at the end of it which so reminds me of agonised conversations between Sam and Dean about Family, Friends, and Difficulties of The Hunter’s Life that I’m slightly discombobulated.
Okay, I’m roaring just watching the first scene. The school uniforms!
“I feel so sticky after that long train journey!”
Oh, and Sam and Dean have a way of dominating everything now. I’m re-reading Rebecca West’s Black Lamb and Grey Falcon and she has a whole section on the lost pirate tribe known as the Uskoks – who harassed the Turks off the Dalmatian coast in a successful guerrilla war – until that all ended, in one generation, and they basically vanished without a trace – although historians have tried to figure out the “family tree” and who out there are the descendants of this fascinating war-like group. But the way she described the morality of the Uskoks – their bravery, their mindset, their insularity and also their willingness to put themselves on the front lines – I was thinking: “Huh. Sounds kind of like the hunter lifestyle.”
And with that connection, I have finally lost my marbles.
Sheila — //And with that connection, I have finally lost my marbles.//
SPN invades everything.
Just yesterday a patron came into the library looking for some books on ancient symbols and languages. She was a little bit loopy and confused, but kept stressing to my coworker that it was very important. She was looking for an ancient language. One of the first languages! Older than Latin and stuff! It started with an “e” or something. Her mother had told her about. She needed to translate symbols!
I interrupted and suggested “enochian?“…and that was exactly what she was looking for.
HA! That is awesome!!
And as we all know, “It’s funnier in Enochian.”
//I interrupted and suggested “enochian?“…and that was exactly what she was looking for.//
May, that’s so amazing! The mind boggles about what she had to translate!
Sheila — //And as we all know, “It’s funnier in Enochian.”//
Hee! It is a truth universally acknowledged.
Helena — //The mind boggles about what she had to translate!//
I have no clue. But it was very important. We don’t have anything on Enochian, though we do have season of SPN…which she had never seen before (“Is it a true story?” “No”).
Last year around this time, a different patron came in and accused “everyone around here” of being guilty. She was innocent. But we (pointing at me) were all guilty. Then she left.
Obviously, there is some sort of evil plot afoot in my town.
// (“Is it a true story?” “No”). //
hahahahahaha
I think you need to paint a devil’s trap right at the front door. Just to be sure.
//“Is it a true story?” “No”//.
Hahahaha! I would have found it hard to say ‘No.’ Because these marbles are gone, baby.
Have you had an elderly Jewish gentleman working his way through your special reference section yet?
An elderly Jewish gentleman … who also played Barney Miller, one of the most realistic cops to ever grace the small screen, which just makes it even cooler.
Barb, thanks for the info on genre classification. The two sides you presented are pretty much what I was thinking. I wonder if the over classification leads to some of the snobbishness we were looking at earlier. Like the kind of book you like is linked to the kind of person you are. How many times have I had this conversation.
“What kind of books do you like?”
“Um, good books, funny books, interesting books…”
“No, I mean what KIND…”
“um…”
May: The enochian story is great.
//Obviously, there is some sort of evil plot afoot in my town.//
Time to call in the boys! Fuck, it is always time to call in the boys.
// Fuck, it is always time to call in the boys. //
What’s “Amen” in Enochian?
OK, I just googled Enochian and ohmygod JOHN DEE. I love him. In the British Museum you can see his crystal ball and obsidian scrying mirror.
Wow! I haven’t read that one – but I love that whole era. The alchemists.
Heather-
Yes, I think that people do have a tendency to align themselves with the books they like, if they are serious aficionados of a particular genre–that’s up to and including literary works, of course. And some can be very resistant to trying different things.
May-
First off–Vampire Highland Romance! I’m amazed I haven’t been asked for that one!
I can imagine the cover–shirtless sexy vampire in a kilt, right? Probably no ravished maiden, since more romance novel covers these days focus on the men exclusively. I wonder if he sparkled?
And dang, Enochian! We have that book–I’m not kidding. I ran across it once while inventorying last year. Made me laugh, then gave me chills–I had no idea up to that point that it was a real thing, and I wondered who had requested it, since it’s pretty esoteric, and was sort of a “knock-off” edition. Too bad she was in such a hurry, you could have suggested an interlibrary loan!
Barb — //I can imagine the cover–shirtless sexy vampire in a kilt, right? Probably no ravished maiden, since more romance novel covers these days focus on the men exclusively.//
YES! The author is Hannah Howell. The first book I saw was called Highland Hunger. I tried linking it before, but messed it up, so I’m not trying again. But you can find them on Amazon.
I particularly love the romance novel covers that are just chest and abs, like “No, we don’t need to see your face. JUST TAKE YOUR SHIRT OFF.”
//Too bad she was in such a hurry, you could have suggested an interlibrary loan!//
LMAO. Oh, our ILL librarian would have loved me for that.
Helena, Heather, Sheila — I think I’m going to start checking our security camera footage for laser eyes.
Sheila — //I think maybe people were over-thinking Twilight. Which tends to happen when it is GIRLS who flock to loving something. //
I agree. I’ve read some posts about Twilight and abuse (and 50 Shades and abuse) that I’ve found interesting and insightful, but at the same time I just don’t take those novels that seriously. I was on board the Twilight hate bandwagon until I saw how deep that hatred actual was. I enjoyed mocking it in the same way I enjoy mocking romance novels or really bad movies. But there is a whole lot of sexism in the Twilight/Twilight fan hate.
May – I mean, good lord, I was devouring Flowers in the Attic and Petals on the Wind when I was 12, which we have discussed ad nauseum to my great enjoyment on those other SPN threads – and those books make Twilight look not only tame but HIGHLY sane – and I turned out (semi) okay.
Fantasies are weird and young girls have a LOT of steam to let off. Hopefully they’ll all grow out of it. Hopefully they won’t look at the book as “This is the relationship I want to have and I will now proceed to live my life this way.” (Although … you know … that was kind of the point in “Twihard,” which was so funny – Sam and Dean having to deal with young girls thinking vampires are cool and sexy as opposed to horrible.)
But I had all KINDS of politically-incorrect-whatever fantasies when I was a kid – and still do. I don’t live my LIFE that way but God, it’s a fantasy, leave me alone. Thank goodness “thoughtcrimes” as per Orwell are not punishable yet. Although you’d never know it from some of the commentary!
I kind of touched on this a bit in my review of La Bare, a documentary about this male strip club in Dallas.
It was refreshing to meet all those dancers who basically catered to female fantasy without worry-warting over it. One of the guys said, “A lot of the clientele are businesswomen with stressful jobs – so they come to the club – get to live in a dream world for a while – and then go home and have sex with their husbands or go home and take care of it themselves – whatever.”
It’s healthy, realistic. I liked it.
You’re most welcome. The more I think of it, New Who is definitely is the best place to start, since it was written to be accessible to new viewers while retaining callbacks and continuity to make old nerds like me happy.
A difficult balancing act, I imagine!!
//I’m re-reading Rebecca West’s Black Lamb and Grey Falcon//
That’s impressive – I failed in my one attempt to tackle that one.
I’m reading ‘The Fountain Overflows’ now, which is excellent but a very different reading experience.
Perhaps unsurprisingly, I agree with Dan on Dr. Who; us holdover nekulturny apparatchiks from the old days gotta stick together. ;-) Tom Baker is the best of the “old” Doctors (I used to watch on WVIZ, the Cleveland PBS affiliate), and Season One is a good intro to New Who.
Also, if you’d like an overview of the whole shootin’ match in about two minutes, there’s the Craig Ferguson “Dr. Who cold open” on YouTube. :-)
Nekulturny apparatchiks … hahahahaha Ahh, the good old days.
You guys have both given me a good place to start.
The website with the Key of Solomon also has a translation of John Dee’s Mysteriorum Libre Quinque, with the “earliest version of Enochian Alphabet.” For anyone not wanting to wait for an interlibrary loan. Here’s the link http://esotericarchives.com/dee/sl3188.htm
And for the sigilophiles, there’s a Lesser Key of Solomon with a ton of sigils.
http://esotericarchives.com/solomon/lemegeton.htm
Okay, this thread right here may be the most brilliant thread ever. Look at where it has gone and is still going.
Sigils! John Dee! Dr. Who!
And yet
Abu Ghraib? (Bueller?)
Abu Ghraib? (Bueller?)
Abu Ghraib? (Bueller?)
mutecypher — I’ll have to remember those links if the patron returns!
RE: Doctor Who. I also agree with Dan and Ken. If you are going to start watching, probably the best starting point is Series 1 of New Who. There are places within the New Who seasons that are easier for people to jump in as well, like Season/Series 5. They are all on Netflix, last I checked.
I grew up watching Doctor Who, though I haven’t seen many of the older shows in a long time. Apparently I was mesmerized by the opening theme when I was a toddler. Tom Baker was my first Doctor, but my favourite is David Tennant (mostly because he was the Doctor when I fell in love with the show again).
RE: Twilight, Flowers in the Attic, and teen girl fantasies.
I’ve finished reading the Andrews blog and yes, Twilight is super sane and feminist by comparison! One thing I’ve never understood about the Twilight hate is the complaints about “sexy vampires.” Like, where have these people been for the past 100 years? Vampires have been all about sex for ages.
As to the hysterics regarding Edward and Bella’s relationship—have these people never looked at a romance novel before? Pick up any random historical romance and you will find tales of virgin maidens being forced into harems or sexual service. Where is the panic over our grandma’s reading that?
Twilight is a YA paranormal romance. Its fans will be fine.
You just don’t seen the same sort of hand wringing over the things boys like. Superheroes cater pretty heavily to adolescent male power fantasies, and while they have their critics, you don’t see the kind of hatred that Twilight fans receive.
Wow, thanks for the links, mutecypher–I might have to go grab that book now.
Careful with those sigils and invocations, though, don’t go spray painting them on walls or floors–you never can be too careful–
May-
//You just don’t seen the same sort of hand wringing over the things boys like. Superheroes cater pretty heavily to adolescent male power fantasies//
I agree as far as society in general is concerned. I worry about it, though, with my boys. Both of mine enjoy wargames, computer games, first person stuff like Assassin’s Creed (They are both “tweens”). I’m concerned that these games tend to present players with compelling scenarios in a way that may be out of context in terms of history–or with the idea of moral choices. I absolutely do not require my kids to stick to “moral” storytelling–I would rather they ask questions and figure it out for themselves–but I worry that they are not seeing the grey areas we like to talk about, much less the ethics involved in a situation. The games are so goal oriented, potentially so mercenary, that questions of right and wrong don’t even have to play into it.
I try to counteract all this by talking to them about this stuff–of course, they tend to glaze over. I see it in their faces–mom’s talking about monsters again!
Barb: //but I worry that they are not seeing the grey areas we like to talk about, much less the ethics involved in a situation. The games are so goal oriented, potentially so mercenary, that questions of right and wrong don’t even have to play into it.//
Wow. Without sounding sycophantic I have to say you NAILED it here. Really, this gave me chills. As far as your sons go, I feel like if you can identify the issue as clearly as you have here- you will figure it out successfully.
Context again.
May://Pick up any random historical romance and you will find tales of virgin maidens being forced into harems or sexual service. Where is the panic over our grandma’s reading that?//
Totally and hilariously. I read a great book on the types of relationships so often seen in romances, Loving With a Vengeance: Mass Produced Fantasies for Women, by Tania Modleski. She actually treats these formulaic stories and their audience with respect.
There is something a bit chilling about those sigils right?
Barb — I was definitely thinking about general society, and the reaction to the teen fans, when I wrote that comment. I had forgotten about video games. They do get more than their fair share of blame for violence (along with heavy metal and the rap music). There is also the stereotype of the basement dwelling comic book/sci-fi/fantasy loving, forever a virgin, male fan. And I certainly think boys have a whole slew of cultural issues to face that negatively affect them. I singled out superheroes specifically, because even though the old geek stereotype remains, superheroes (and sci-fi/fantasy) are mainstream now.
Twilight faces the same sort of hatred that boy bands and teen idols do. Every few years there is something new that teen girls love and it is always hated by everyone else. These things all basically represent ways for teen girls to explore their growing sexuality in a way they feel safe…and so they are mocked relentlessly for being superficial, shallow, bad examples, etc, etc.
I don’t like Twilight. I never liked boy bands as a teen. But I started to ask myself why I didn’t like them. Was it because of their content? Or was it because of the way their fans are perceived? I don’t want to be seen as silly and superficial, so I better not admit to liking that Backstreet Boys song!
Hi, May-
Perhaps some of the push-back has less to do with what girls/women like, and more to do with what filter we use to relate these things to ourselves? I look at Twilight as a horror fan (and I confess, I only saw the first movie, and haven’t read the books, so I am probably not the best to judge), so it’s tough to get past the presentation of vampires in that movie for me. Sex doesn’t really enter into it, for me, anyway, but I see what you’re saying.
Do you think that judgement matters to the girls who like it, though? It can be oddly self-affirming to be part of a group, whether that group is Twilight fans or anti-fans (which is another way of asserting your sense of self), romance readers, fans of music that your parents hate, sports people or geeks. I think that there will always be backlash, no matter what the popular thing is, you’re right about that. That can actually be part of its appeal.
I don’t know, I might be way off base and babbling here. Help?
This is only a semi-related story, but when I read your reply, I thought of my older son, who was talking to me a couple of weeks ago about some kids he was friends with in elementary school. They’ve gotten into drugs. I asked him if he’d ever been around drugs or alcohol (he’s just finished 7th grade), and he gave me this look, a little half smile. “I’m geek, Mom. That doesn’t happen to us.” Like he’s a member of a tribe–not even “a” geek, but Geek.
Try ‘Over Sea, Under Stone’. It’s a fun read.
Sheila, I have to apologize for posting a very late and very useless comment about which Susan Cooper’s book you need to read. I didn’t notice that someone else has recommended more of her books to you. Gah.
Yes, there was a television adaptation of Ballet Shoes. I remember watching it on BBC One. Unfortunately, I didn’t like it. It’s a bit uninspired and the acting was below average. It’s sad because I really really like the book.
Julia – never apologize for giving a book recommendation! :) My comments section is all wonky so the “reply” probably didn’t show up where it should, and etc. Thanks – weirdly enough the day after this whole thread strated, I found a huge post somewhere about Susan Cooper, and all the covers of her books, etc. – and I thought – “Hey wait! We were just talking about these!!”
Ballet Shoes was just a MAGICAL book. I should re-read it. Definitely there is something magic there that could not translate to the screen.
Barb — Babble away! I do it all the time. I think my comments can come across more…adamant? protesty?…than I actually feel about it. Like what you like, hate what you hate, I don’t care. All I ask it that people aren’t judged and pigeonholed by their interests.
I don’t think the dislike matters to the girls in the fandom, but I think it can scare away girls on the periphery, and fans from other genres from trying new things. I’m a geek. I’ve always loved comic books, Star Trek, Star Wars—interests that are often viewed (incorrectly, I’d argue) as male and that have a lot of male fans. And I’ve found these issues to be more pronounced in the geek worlds than in general society.
Sticking with Twilight as the example (I’ve read all of the books, seen the first movie, and I would classify them all as romance), I attended the San Diego Comic Con the same year the Twilight actors were there for the first time. Everywhere I went, you could overhear attendees complaining about the Twilight fans. There were too many of them. They were taking up space that could be used for other things. That they didn’t belong. I thought Comic Con was supposed to be an accepting place for all fans. But it isn’t always.
After that, I started seeing more stories about sexual harassment at cons, the “fake geek girl” complaints, and the Twilight hate started to sound more and more like sexism instead of just a dislike of content. So…I don’t know. I’m not worried about the girls in the fandom…I just don’t like the reaction they receive when they branch out into others.
Heather–I’m blushing, can you tell? Thank you for the vote of confidence!
May–Yes, I see that stuff too. It’s the dark underbelly of fandom, the feeling that someone else is “doing it wrong!” That some fandoms are more worthy than others. I haven’t personally experienced the fake geek girl thing, probably because I surround myself with other geek girls. But I know it’s enough of an issue to be satirized–have you seen, for instance, this video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUAYBllb7tY (Don’t know if I made that clicky or not :-) )
I love your unapologetic, “I can be a fan of whatever I want” approach. I absolutely agree that the entire guilty pleasure concept is ridiculous and no such thing exists. Or, no such thing should exist.
My long-time boyfriend is an architect and he says he always finds it funny that when he’s standing in front of any given building with people who know about his profession, they’re nervous and keep throwing him these surreptitious glances, trying to gauge his reaction, his opinion of the building, before saying whether they like it or not. Trying to figure out whether it’s correct and appropriate to like it or not. And he’s like “There’s no right or wrong here, you either like it or you don’t, you don’t need an architect’s opinion for that, and no snobbish architect or critic or anyone else gets to tell you what you should like.”
//why is blatant enjoyment seen as suspect?? How has THAT occurred?//
That’s what really befuddles me too. I think people are afraid of expressions of enjoyment because it reeks of subjectivity… and we’re all about being objective and politically correct and all that stuff. Oh, and also being very serious and respectable, and apparently fun or joy has no place in “respectable”.
At my uni, we have this class about British and American short stories (I’m Czech) and whenever we discuss some story, people always talk about the story structure, the subtext, the intertextuality, the plot devices etc. But no one ever says something like “I loved this story” or “This story made me tear up” or “This story made me laugh out loud”. No one. (Well, until I said it. And the teacher seemed really happy and thankful that I did, but the rest of the class stared at me as if I was an alien.)
Hunkenka – That’s interesting about your boyfriend!! There are definitely moments where I am not sure if my evaluation is correct – especially if it’s something I don’t know a lot about – like classical music, for example – I like what I like, but I am not an aficionado and would definitely want corroboration on what I like. Ha.
About “subjectivity” – This is really weird, but sometimes – in the comments to reviews I’ve written – and I’ve seen it elsewhere – a commenter will say, “This review is so biased.”
Uhm, what exactly do you think a “review” is? Of course it’s biased. It’s not written by a bot. It’s not a Wikipedia article. It’s the opinion of one person. It’s such a strange thing.
Some of the greatest history books in the world were written by people with HUGE biases – and a bone to pick – and an agenda. Like Thomas Carlyle’s French Revolution. Of course it’s totally biased. It still should be read. I think there’s a lot of confusion out there about what “objectivity” actually means.
And yeah, being “respectable” – that goes along with the “guilty pleasure” concept. But once you kind of eradicate that mindset, there is such freedom. I see no contradiction – in loving a movie like Ikiru and loving a movie like Blue Crush. Now, obviously, I have SOME skills in critical analysis and I would never say that Blue Crush is as good a movie as Ikiru because that would just be stupid. And I love both.
My dad always used to say when confronted with a contradiction like that: “I see no problem.”
Ha.
I think of that often.
I think a lot of people feel “cowed” by critical opinion. “Oh God, everyone is making fun of Sex and the City … so I feel defensive because I love it.” Or, as I experienced it: “She is writing so much about James Joyce and it makes me feel insecure that I haven’t read it, therefore she is an elitist and she is making me feel bad about myself so I am going to give her shit.” They weren’t examining what was really going on for them.
You know. You have to work sometimes to sort all that out.
I love this. I really do. First off: your boarding school thing! As a kid who was fed Enid Blyton, then became obsessed with Harry Potter, I get it. It’s a very special kind of weird. Must be the compulsion of a hothouse environment or something.
And the love-what-you-love stuff- this is wonderful, and I wish more people were encouraged to be impervious. Or not encouraged per se- but some people seem to think that their opinion is not valid unless it is SHARED- and that never ends well.
Twilight. Oh, lord. Being a 1999 child I actually got caught in the centre of all the hype- people were raving over them and other people were putting those people down, you know?
That’s actually one of Tumblr’s main problems. It doesn’t allow people to just love what they love. I’m easily pleased, myself.
Anyway- thanks so much for linking me to this.
Wren – another Enid Blyton fan!! God, I loved those books.
People were so MEAN about Twilight – and I can’t help but think it’s because it was so huge among GIRLS. Nobody freaks out to that degree about what boys love – except when they go shoot up schools, and then everyone blames that action on video games or whatever. But when girls decide: “OMG I LIKE THIS” – everyone falls into a fit of worrying. It happened with Elvis too. So silly!
And screw Tumblr! Those people there also need validation for loving what they love – “How DARE you criticize my ship? I have PTSD from people criticizing what I ship!” Uhm, get off the computer, take a walk, and get some perspective. Nobody is persecuting you. If it upsets you that people don’t like your “ship,” then write it all out in your journal where it is private and safe.
// I wish more people were encouraged to be impervious. Or not encouraged per se- but some people seem to think that their opinion is not valid unless it is SHARED- and that never ends well. //
“Impervious.” That’s a perfect way to put it. Loving something – being a fan of something – is a wonderful thing. (Unless, you know, it’s like John Hinckley’s version of being a fan of Jodie Foster. Then it is a BAD thing.) But if you love something? Who CARES if people make fun of you? I get it. It’s hard. People have made fun of me. But I’ve now had years of practice of not caring at all – and it’s a much better way to go about things!