Supernatural, Season 10, Episode 9: Open Thread

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… coinciding with John Milton’s birthday. An accident? I think not.

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144 Responses to Supernatural, Season 10, Episode 9: Open Thread

  1. Lyrie says:

    Quick! Grab your ponchos!

  2. Pat says:

    Hi, everybody. Found this blog about 6 weeks ago and appreciate the SPN love here. I love the in-depth episode reviews. I’ve been watching since S1 and my Winchester feels have not waned yet. Jensen Ackles is an amazing actor, full stop.

    My contribution to the discussion bout this episode is speculation — I got the idea that Claire is a possible plot device to taper off Cas’ interactions with the Winchesters. I think the writers have been trying to figure out a way to write a new story line for Cas where he doesn’t become the guy in the backseat of the Impala or hanging out in the bunker 24/7. Having Cas want to do right by Jimmy’s daughter may be a convenient way out of the corner they painted him into. He can be gone for long periods, making sure Claire is on the straight and narrow, then every once in a while the brothers can get a phone call from Cas with a little update on how Claire is doing.

    I hope I’m wrong cause I love Cas.

    • sheila says:

      I think Castiel looking out for Claire might be a good fit (a dovetail with Sheriff Mills’ new responsibilities??) – this whole season has felt like it’s been about parenting, to be honest.

      Castiel/Claire is better than embarrassed Castiel and naked Hannah. I was so embarrassed for both of them that I had to cover my eyes. Castiel’s plot-lines have been a real issue in S10. Zero point to them.

      We shall see.

  3. Helena says:

    Jeezlouise … that was intense. When they knock it out the park, they really knock it out the park.

  4. Jessie says:

    talk to me Helena, I wasn’t feeling 70% of it!

    Pat (hello!) I get that feeling too — especially when Cas protectively removed her from the MOC situation at the end, which was maybe their best moment. It’s a good reason for Cas to stay away — but does that mean we will be getting many Cas & Claire On Their Own storylines?

    • sheila says:

      Or maybe Castiel and Sheriff Mills can commiserate on how to parent a wild teen. Maybe they can have play-dates and Claire and Alex can set off fire-crackers and get stoned together while Castiel and Jodie have coffee and complain.

  5. Helena says:

    OK, Jessie. Um, 70%?

    Well, firstly, black ‘impala67’ tshirt to the fore. ( Do I actually need to say any more :-)

    Also, rescue, redemption, guilt, atonement, family – including mirroring creepy surrogate families, daddy issues, mommy issues, nightmares/flashbacks, teenage Dean, toasted cheese sandwiches. Plus overall a much better balance between showing and telling than, say, the episode with the Werewolf Sisters, plus an engaging performance fromthe actress who played young Claire. Castiel and Winchester story lines becoming more enmeshed, and on a personal level (about their shared past) rather than a Big Bad level, although the MoC thing has now roared to the fore after a few weeks of undertainty, or teasing, if you prefer to look at it that way. A Castiel story that is actually intertwined with his relationship and history with the Winchesters, rather than random car rides with Hannah.

    re dads and Daddy issues – I loved the John Winchester anecdote, firstly because it’s a bit of Winchester back story and it’s always fascinating to me to see where the Winchesters are with their dad and also how they narrate their own lives at any given point in the series. The story didn’t (for me) erase the more creepy and controlling aspects of JW that we’ve discussed endlessly on this site, but it threw a fresh but authentic (non-retconning) light on the father-son relationship, as well as being a joy to watch Ackle’s performance while telling it. JP’s facial expressions were also wonderful. And that little anecdote works hard – it prompts Castiel to return to find Claire; it invites us to contemplate the huge distance young Dean even as he appears in Season 1 and where (and what he is now – much closer to what his Dad became with all the not good things that implies and wonder whether it’s too late to rescue him (Dean seems to think it is, at least that’s how I interpreted the earlier conversation with Castiel. Which, again, was awesome.)

    Plus, the beginning (manic laughter) and the ending (dead eyed, barely coherent) – but particularly the ending. So reminded me of the final shot of AHBL Pt 1.

    • sheila says:

      I love all the shadings of the anecdote about JW. That he would discover Dean gone and know immediately where Dean was. In such a huge city, he knew where to find his son. and they were in NYC in the 90s, when there were still hookers on the street here and peep shows everywhere – all kinds of AWESOME stuff for a teenage boy – before our glorious dirty city got rid of the smut and turned into Disney World. I still miss the smut – that link is safe for work, it’s just a bunch of photos I took of boarded-up peep shows on 42nd Street, and the couple of remaining porn shops that linger in the 42nd Street area, hold-outs – and, oh well, yes, I know where all of them are. Ha. I moved here juuuust as the smut was getting run out of town, and I miss it still. But anyway, with all of THAT still going on in New York during their “visit”, JW knew instead to go to the East Village straight to CBGB’s. I liked that a lot. I liked that he was so commanding in the doorway that a Johnny Rotten type would automatically call him “sir” – which was pretty hilarious if you ask me – and I liked that Dean found it funny. It is funny. The most anti-authoritarian movement ever, punk, would cower in the face of John Winchester. I don’t know, thought that was pretty subversive and funny.

      • sheila says:

        oh, and a coda to the vanishing of Smut in NYC:

        A while back I attended the Montreal Film Festival – a little short film I acted in was being screened. Super exciting. I sat in a huge theatre, eating popcorn, watching MYSELF onscreen.

        I had never been to Montreal. It’s a beautiful city. I loved it. And was amazed at all of the smut on display! The peep shows, the hookers, the dirty magazine racks … they were all just out there, for the picking!

        There was a frank-ness about sex work, you could see hookers hanging out on the sidewalk, congregating in certain areas. I felt like a country bumpkin. I was like, “Oh, so that’s where all the smut went once New York stopped welcoming them all. They hitched a ride to Montreal!”

  6. Michelle says:

    I enjoyed this episode a lot. I will echo Helena and say that I loved having a Cas storyline that was personal and not about some mission that I could never invest in because I never really got the big deal about it. I can totally see him calling Sam and Dean for help in that situation and so it was a perfect way of getting the three of them back in each others world….which I like.

    I absolutely adored the scene between Sam and Dean in the bunker with the grilled cheese and the laughter, but I’m torn in a way because I almost feel like it was a little too heavy handed. Dean was so…..DEAN in that scene but it was almost too much. I don’t know, maybe it was just that I knew they were using that scene just to turn around and break our hearts in the end. Jared knocked that one out of the park though. Sam’s face when he saw Dean acting so normal and then he glanced over and saw the mark was heartbreaking and perfect. JP has some of the best face acting of anybody that I’ve seen on television.

    The more I see Rowena, the more I like her. I can’t wait to see more of her and Crowley together. Crowley managed to break my heart a little in this episode though. He wants a family. Rowena know this too and she is totally going to manipulate him. Should be an interesting ride between those two!

    I found the John Winchester story to be fascinating. I had to laugh a little bit though. They weren’t hunting anything in this episode so to speak and they didn’t have to have any lore conversations in this episode so instead they gave us a Dad story. I liked hearing it. Again I totally agree with Helena. The story wasn’t sweet or sappy or in any way designed to cancel out the negative aspects of John; it just gave us yet another small glimpse into his complex and fascinating character. Dean and Sam have felt so many thing towards John and a lot of it bad. Dean in particular has come the farthest in that journey of feelings. However, bottom line is they did love him and I love that they still remind us of that as well.

    My favorite line of the whole episode? Dean logic. “She’s hanging out with a guy named Randy….of course she’s in trouble.”

  7. Lyrie says:

    No « apocalypse take 3 », just shitty parents, shitty pasts and their aftermaths (god, I love this word). I loved the epic stuff of seasons 4 and 5, but you can’t top that. Smart of them to go personal. After all this time, there’s so much to dig. And the Legend of John Winchester lives on! Fascinating. (it made me dream of John Winchester. Not fascinating.).

    Castiel’s story didn’t bore me, but it felt artificial – you just know it’s because they want to keep the actor around. But he and Claire had really nice scenes. I wonder where this is going. Daddy Castiel… I’m sure there are tons of fanfiction of that.

    Fergus, I’m sorry, Crowley: what are you doing? Are you that lonely? Or do you have something in mind? He was unreadable. What about Rowena: what does she WANT? I’m intrigued by that family drama. (Also: I love a show where a woman much younger than Mark Sheppard gets to play his mother and it’s totally OK).

    That last scene… I suppose that’s what you were talking about last week? Try not to make fun of me: I’m heartbroken. Oh, Dean!

  8. sheila says:

    Well, the image of Dean and John at CBGB’s has made my week. Also: John hated the New York Yankees. As a Sox fan, that made me happy to hear.

    That whole monologue was beautifully performed – but I have to just mention JP’s REACTION SHOTS. It was so siblings-ish – a shared story, so long ago, funny in retrospect, terrible in the moment, but also kind of awesome. JP was doing some really great defensive-stuff there, reacting to JA’s work.

    I love that there they still have ambivalence about John. There was some great behavior around that. I get it that many see him as a villain. Sure. But the ambivalence is just so much more interesting to watch, and soooo real.

    Bored with Castiel, in general, but this was better than the bullshit with Hannah. Maybe Castiel has a purpose now outside of … what. Moping? Being cutesy? I did like that even Sam and Dean seemed impatient with Castiel when he called them. Like, “dude, deal with your own shit.” (and get out of OUR story. What the hell. No, just kidding. But not really.) Also – what’s the status with Heaven now? I’ve been so bored with the angels I can’t retain the information.

    They’re really pouring on the whole absent/bad parent thing – which has been fascinating since the start of S10. John Winchester mentioned OFTEN. And then we have Crowley’s mum and absent Jimmy Novak. That’s been a theme in almost every episode. That pleases me – it has more “oomph” than even fighting with some Big Bad.

    It was good to see Crowley again. To Gerald in re: his mum burning him with cigarettes: “Nobody cares.” Not enough Crowley, though – it was really 3 episodes rolled into one.

    Dean laughing with a mouth full of grilled cheese.

    Dean just murdered, like, 5 people. Holy shit.

    When they closed the door after Sam left – don’t you think Sam would have immediately noticed and not even made it to the car?

    I did not like the scene with Claire Novak saying that Castiel was a “doof.” That at first he was uptight, but now he’s not, he’s just a “doof.” That’s the sort of writing-to-please-the-Castiel-fanbase thing that stands out for me like a sore thumb. It’s too self-aware. It feels like pandering.

    BUT that being said – Castiel wanting to make things right and finally thinking about Jimmy Novak and the consequences of those actions and how it affected Claire is a FAR more interesting “arc” for him than … well, anything we’ve seen in about 2 seasons from him, frankly.

    Randy’s glasses skeeved me OUT. Perfect casting, perfect glasses choice. Disgusting human being.

    That was one creepy isolation room they put Claire in. Jeez. How about providing her with a book or something. Or at least a magazine.

    I am generally dissatisfied with instant reactions – but those are my quick-sketch thoughts upon watching the episode.

    • sheila says:

      When I say “dissatisfied with instant reactions” – I am ONLY talking about myself. I like to think about things more, have a bit more time to chew things over. I was not talking about other people’s instant reactions. Sorry!! just want to make that clear!

  9. mutecypher says:

    Just how hard will Season 8’s “I deserve to be loved” end up biting Crowley in the butt? A demon with emotional needs that can’t be met with bloodletting. That’s like a tiger …um… like a tiger eating um…. like a tiger eating tofu (shoulda thought about where that was going before I typed it)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hx_lcdrhhA

    I’m very curious about Rowena’s end game. She was up for training hookers to become witches, but happy to betray the demon who helped her out of the dungeon? No chick-solidarity there.

    I liked the “look what you’ve grown up to become” exchange between Rowena and Crowley. I especially enjoyed Crowley’s silence when Rowena asked him how he’d died, making us think that she was correct in predicting that it would be in a gutter, covered with his own puke.

    And Dean killing again. It made me so happy. He’s going to find out that Hell isn’t other people, it’s being locked away with yourself after you’ve done horrible things. It’s gonna be operatic, I just know it.

    • sheila says:

      // It’s gonna be operatic, I just know it. //

      God willing! Can’t wait!

      Rowena’s line about the orgy made me laugh. But yeah, can’t really tell what’s really going on there, not yet.

      I want more Crowley!

      The show really feels all over the place right now.

      I’m not complaining. I kind of dig it.

  10. Helena says:

    By the way – is that it until January? In which case, AAAGH!

  11. Jessie says:

    Thank you guys for being so positive! I hope to watch again and like it more. Helena, yes, the T-shirt and the Three Stooges (how apropos) makes up for a multitude of sins!

    I think the idea of Claire and that arc with Jimmy was/is cool but my major issue with the episode was her and her scenes with Cas. I don’t want to be too critical of a young actor as this reaction may well be specific to me — there are some actors who have a tightness to their face that I read as a self-consciousness, or awareness of the camera — like they are about to break into a nervous smile. It’s an affect that’s anathema to my suspension of disbelief and completely took me out of it. I found her prison risible; similarly the lip-licking lasciviousness and awfulness of Mr Goombah Loan Shark and Randy (although I agree the glasses were great!). Just didn’t really buy any part of that story except, as I said, for Cas removing her from the House of Cain which was the first actively fatherly thing he did (why he took her back there in the first place…convenient).

    I still enjoy Misha’s performance — his voice and face work in the interview with the woman running the ridiculous facility (I liked that actress) was wonderful — but I guess I find Cas a little dull. However I did like that he was able to be a friend to Dean, who certainly needs them. That scene in the diner was filmed very intimately.

    I love the Rowena-Crowley show — a very cute arc with the “back in a flash” — but I actively dislike the set and the besuited demons that inhabit it.

    The best bits were the beginning and end. I loved the contrast between the dream and reality; I loved the camera work on that pull below Dean’s face when he woke. I agree Sheila, the Dean Show seemed a bit forced and I don’t know yet if it’s the writers pushing the contrast too hard or something organic and desperate to where Dean is at the moment. His endorsement of the Wiener Hut was pretty great.

    I loved the JW anecdote. There are a lot of daddy (and mummy) issues coming home to roost this season it would appear. What a contrast between this and Dean’s brainwashing comment! He “raised them right”did he? Hello, Winchester Belljar. One step forward two steps back.

    I wonder how old Dean was — soon after Bad Boys is my guess. I thought the anecdote was too on the nose to be honest, but the “sexual peril”parallel between Claire and Dean was interesting. I thought JP’s reactions where a bit ambiguous as to whether Sam knew the whole story — which pleases me either way. I will have to check it out again.

    I can’t say though that they didn’t stick the landing!!

    • sheila says:

      The silent symphony of behavior with the Weiner Hut endorsement was my favorite moment in the episode. And Sam, like, “Really? You’re eating right now?” And Dean, nodding, winking, thumbs up, mouth full – just great random stuff, classic JA.

      Oh, and yes, the interview with the social worker or whoever she was was very funny. I like Castiel when he tries to be human and fails because he doesn’t understand subtlety or … anything, really.

      And I despise that he is “pop culture savvy” now. Grrrrrr.

      The more I can hear about Dean as a teenager, the better. And yeah, JP’s reactions were fascinating – I love how they tag-teamed the story a little bit – it just felt very real.

      I liked the scene between Cas and Dean. JA is on some whole other plane right now – it’s those flashes in his eyes of – it’s really blank-ness, nothing else – it’s very different from his other Post-Traumatic seasons (hell, purgatory) – This is different. I’ll think more on what is different – there’s almost despair in his eyes, from time to time. Just glimmers. True despair. Not freaked-out, not agony, not open trauma – but hopelessness, despair. A blank quality, something he can’t fight, it goes deeper than emotion. It’s new. It’s really disturbing. Great.

      Interesting thoughts on the young actress. I love to talk about stuff like that. I thought she did a pretty good job – but felt the bursting-in-right-before-the-assault thing was pretty stock (I did appreciate that she fought like hell for herself). Not crazy about using rape in that way – it feels skeevy. I guess I feel like: if you’re gonna have a sexual assault, then REALLY have one – or suggest one (like they did with Alex) – don’t use it as a plot point, or as an opportunity for a man to burst through the door and be the hero. (Women in refrigerators.)

      The show rarely uses sexual assault in that skeevy way (except when it’s Sam or Dean as damsel in distress, that is).

      I will say that the big show-down in the alley – where she had the gun on the guys – the pace lagged for me (something to do with the editing – too many pauses) – but it reminded me as well of the Werewolf actress who just could not hold her own with those powerhouse guys onscreen. When Claire had the gun on the guys, I felt that having her in the position of running that scene, essentially, was too much for her.

      Think of the difference with other really young actresses on the show – Ava (as we just raved about!) – or even Alex in Season 9. Those two young actresses were more than game to really do some heavy lifting in the scenes that required it.

      But I thought she did an okay job – punching the wall made me very sad for her – and she was funny in the scene with the counselor when she was coaching her “dad” on what to say.

    • sheila says:

      // I loved the contrast between the dream and reality //

      YES. VERY effective. Really really well conceived and well executed.

  12. Jessie says:

    I find it fascinating that I had such a problem with the actress and you guys didn’t. That’s the magic I suppose. Just couldn’t buy her troubled-ness or wall-punching or really any of her emotions. Why was she pretending to be happy in the interview situation before the prison lady came in? Who did her hair? Come on! ha ha. Maybe I wasn’t in the zone; I feel like a nitpicker now. I like it in theory. I like that she knows and hates Sam and Dean. I just didn’t enjoy the execution and I’m not really looking forward to more…c’est la vie.

    Yes, Cas knows about CBGB’s now! Gag me with a spoon. Gimme the pest control discussion any day.

    Re: Dean: we keep getting that recurring expression after his MOC violence — that helpless, lost expression. It was in his dream tonight but not at the end of the episode that that look was even scarier/sadder :-(

    • sheila says:

      // Who did her hair? //

      hahahahaha

      I think it might have been better to have her just be on the streets, and messed up, as opposed to hanging out with a sort of Fagin/Artful Dodger type (although maybe then it would be too much like Alex/Annie, blah blah??) – her “plight” with Randy and his plight with the loan shark didn’t really do much for me – except that obviously it gave Dean 5 people to kill in half a second.

      // It was in his dream tonight but not at the end of the episode that that look was even scarier/sadder :-( //

      Yes. He looked devastated. And really really scared.

      Good good stuff.

  13. Helena says:

    //The show really feels all over the place right now.

    I’m not complaining. I kind of dig it.//

    So do I. I’m enjoying the lack of Big Bad, it’s created an excellent space for Ghosts from The Past who keep barrelling up and thwopping our motley crew in the face. Cole and Dean. Castiel and Claire. Crowley and Rowena. So, about consequences – examining the wreckage of the Winchester’s Shermanesque trail of destruction, or Castiel’s. And All About Parents, good, bad and both.

    I’ll just go back to the JW anecdote because I’m a bit obsessed with it. There’s so much in it. Sam and Dean’s back and forth with, the fact that Sam asks Dean to tell it and his contribution to the story as Dean is telling it, its content, where it sits in the episode and the Season … the irony and the hidden pathos, the layers to Dean saying Dad ‘raised him right’ while being in the grip of his bad-dream-cheese-eating-forced-laughter-kill-me-if-I-go-too-far madness. I can’t help reading into that it that Dean, as he tells it, is burningly aware that he’s now this thing his dad would kill (shades of Save or Kill Sam) and must be feeling he has let his dad down terribly by becoming this thing … the memory of his dad hauling his drunken 16-year old self out of a den of iniquity must be funny and excruciating at the same time. Who could haul him out of where he is now?

    And interesting that it’s Dean that steers Castiel back to Claire with the anecdote and ‘hanging out with a guy called Randy’ line.

  14. Jessie says:

    Well, Alex had her own Fagin type who was pimping her out, right? Randy existed to be a replacement failure-father.

    I like how you write about the anecdote Helena! John Winchester as the Absolute Hunter, the Absolute Authority — the name of the Father — even Cas likened him to God this episode. Remember the Thinman “good ol’ days” tale of absent dads and broken arms? It’s so great that the backstory is so riddled with holes, and all of these glimpses we get are richer in their inconsistency. It makes it feel real.

    • sheila says:

      // Well, Alex had her own Fagin type who was pimping her out, right? //

      True, true, I guess the Alex situation just worked better for me, because it was sicker and more explicit, and more fucked up. If you’re gonna “go there,” in other words, then really go there. It just didn’t work as well for me with Randy and the loan sharks (coming that very night! Up those stakes!).

    • sheila says:

      // It’s so great that the backstory is so riddled with holes, and all of these glimpses we get are richer in their inconsistency. //

      Yes!!

      And it’s obviously possible to laugh about a childhood memory at the same time that you are ambivalent about what happened later. Or you have mixed feelings about it. Both JA and JP played a llll of those subtleties in that scene – so many mixed feelings, but also – there was a sense of sheer joy in “going back” and talking about something in their childhood.

      Yeah, man, Thinman! broken arms, handlebars – and Sam not having ANY of that ‘member the good old days’ stuff. Pain!

      Sam’s come a long way too- and I love the mother-hen-ish second glances he gives Dean. So often it’s been the other way around, with Dean worrying over Sam – it’s gotten old. This starts to feel a little bit fresh to me, it’s fun to watch them both play it.

    • sheila says:

      Oh and Jessie, by the way, I’m with you:

      I dislike the Hell set intensely.

  15. Barb says:

    The line that keeps haunting me, out of that whole John Winchester story, was Sam’s. “He saved you.” Not sure what to make of that, how deep it goes–but it seemed that Sam was recalling his father’s rescue of teenaged Dean in the light of his own attempts to save his brother (from Hell, from the Mark). The story was resonating for him on that level somehow. Or am I reading too much into it?

    • sheila says:

      Yeah, that line struck me too.

      It made me think that Dean was leaving something out of the story. That maybe he was in a bit more of a compromising position than he was letting on to Castiel – a detail maybe Sam knew, and Dean knew, but they weren’t telling. Saved him from what? So he was a sloppy drunk kid in a bar. So? What else was happening?

  16. Kathy says:

    As usual this episode needs a second watch for detail, plus I love watching with everyone’s observations in mind. One point: the ‘dream’ at the beginning I thought was a flashback of a real event from when Dean was a demon rather than a foreshadowing dream. We suspect he did a lot of ‘stuff’ with Crowley to feed the MoC. Is all of that eating behavior another way to feed the mark?

    Ok, the three stooges, um, Team Free Will? Too much?

    The JW story – I was wondering if Dad knew how to find Dean because Sammy had to tell. Can’t imagine too many times Sammy could withstand Dad demanding answers. And maybe Sammy was a little worried about Dean disappearing into the big city (rightly so as it turns out). Sam’s expression during the story was… interesting. And the story itself, a memory of a teen being endangered by predators and what Dads have to do sometimes to keep their kids safe.

    Crowley – lost his BFF and no one to show Mom when she started to taunt him! Think how much he would have loved being able to show off his Knight of Hell friend to Mom. I don’t think he’s fooled by her either. He killed his demon side kick because side kick refused to stop when ordered. I really like Rowena, though. Looking forward to that dynamic.

    • sheila says:

      I don’t know – I think one of the ways Dean bonded with John was through music. I think John is well aware of Dean’s passion for music, as well as his taste, and the only club to go to in New York – the only one that really has brand-name recognition, even for a kid from Kansas – would be CBGB’s.

      I like thinking that John just knew where Dean would go. Even with all of the other things to do in New York, John knew.

    • sheila says:

      Predators? Did I miss a line or something? That’s not how I heard that anecdote at all.

      Maybe we’re supposed to make those connections and I did get the sense Dean was leaving stuff out – but I didn’t hear that he was in the presence of a bunch of leering predators at all. People doing drugs, sure, people maybe buying him drinks, sure, but that’s not the same thing.

  17. Lyrie says:

    // And I despise that he is “pop culture savvy” now. Grrrrrr. //
    Me too. I liked strange deadpan Castiel better. I like that he doesn’t have a clue about how a teenage girl works. And very selfishly, I liked that he didn’t get any cultural references: I could relate! I resent him being “pop culture savvy”. I do not know what CBGB is.

    // don’t use it as a plot point, or as an opportunity for a man to burst through the door and be the hero. (…)
    The show rarely uses sexual assault in that skeevy way //
    Right!! Don’t use it if you don’t have something to say about it, for fuck’s sake! (Are we really supposed to apologize to Sheila’s mum every time?)

    Also: Dean calling Claire a chick. No! Nope. No, no, no, no, no, no. She’s a child, you know, kinda like the ones you used to look after, like say for instance that hunter’s daughter you wanted to protect? Is he that far gone? I don’t know, it bothered me.

    • sheila says:

      “She’s urinating right now.”

      That was funny. The cashier was like, “Uhm, ew, pal.”

      I didn’t mind the “chick”, but then I’m pretty far gone myself. I think he was annoyed, in general, with the entire Castiel situation as well as Castiel’s naiveté about it. “The girl is in trouble. She is clearly in trouble. She’s hanging out with someone named Randy. I mean, come on.”

      Also: I LOVED when Sam said, “I don’t think you can make it right” – or whatever it was he said, when Castiel was wondering how to make it right. That’s great, depth like that is why I love this show. In its own CW-ish way, it is uncompromising in its ambivalence.

      Because you know what? Not everything can be fixed, and some damage runs too deep. I appreciate that.

      • sheila says:

        CBGB’s is one of the most famous rock clubs in the history of America. Like Castiel said: The Ramones got their start there. Blondie. Joan Jett. Lou Reed. The Velvet Underground. Patti Smith. Iggy Pop. It was a staple of New York nightlife. It created stars. It was a scene, man!! Tiny grungy hole in the wall.

        It closed its doors in 2006 – and the howls of despair could be heard round the world.

        The following year, the club owner, Hilly Kristal, who had been around since the 60s and 70s, died.

        I was walking by the old CBGB storefront a couple of days after Hilly Kristal died and took a picture of what I saw:

        http://www.sheilaomalley.com/?p=6950

  18. Helena says:

    Barb, good catch about that line ‘He saved you.’ Though it’s Castiel who says it. But Sam’s the one who comes up with the ‘it’s my job to raise you right’ line, which is an awesome touch. I get the feeling that would resonate a lot with Sam, given his troubled relationship with JW … a lot of good and bad memories, a lot of water under the bridge …

    • sheila says:

      Also, it’s not like they ever sit around reminiscing. It’s all just too … scorched earth. They rarely talk about their father, and suddenly … he’s coming up almost once an episode. I think it’s fabulous. And you can feel the … volcano of shit that is still there, mostly for Dean – Sam seems pretty okay with ambivalence, it’s harder for Dean, always has been.

      So when Castiel asked about their father, there was this almost … startled reaction that went on between the brothers.

      This is why these guys are so good.

    • sheila says:

      There goes my theory about that line then if it was Castiel who said it.

      I don’t know – seems a tad dramatic. Saved him from what? He was drunk, he wasn’t tied up naked on a table. He wasn’t being held down with someone forcing a heroin-needle into his arm. I still think there was more to the story that Dean didn’t share.

      Ahhh, these glorious gaps in the story. I LOVE how they do that to us.

  19. Jessie says:

    Yes, the Alex situation was much more effective – you’re right, it committed. This one felt rather thin. I think it was asking too much for us to buy the “family” dynamic from one scene. I did like that Randy owed only $5k (on “the ponies”?! Come ON), which is a lot of money, yes, but definitely on the “these are a small and petty people” end of the scale.

    All mixed feelings are great. I love Sam getting glimpses of the MOC and pausing but moving on. His demands at the end are very intriguing. “Tell me you had to do it” is a far cry from “hey bro are you okay”. Barb, I don’t think you’re reaching — there are a lot of echoes here; with S2 as well as someone mentioned upthread.

    • sheila says:

      Yeah – 5,000 bucks! That was great.

      Maybe it would have worked better (sorry, I try not to be script-doctor) – if she was actually in a relationship with Randy. If it had been explicit, and she was madly in love with him, as gross as that would be – but, you know, come on, do it if you’re gonna do it – don’t be sneakily suggestive in order to put her into some vague kind of peril so Castiel can be a hero. Randy was skeevy – let him be skeevy. If she, Claire, were madly in love with him, that would have been a cluster-fuck that would have had some Oomph. (Maybe, again, too much of a mirror to Alex’s love of her vampire family – but, you know, I’m grasping at straws.) It was too much to establish “family” in one kind of weak scene over the dinner table. I didn’t understand the close-ness she had with the other kid, or with Randy – it just wasn’t “there” in the sick sick way that you could see how much Alex really did love her “Mama.”

      ANYHOO. Moving on.

      // His demands at the end are very intriguing. “Tell me you had to do it” is a far cry from “hey bro are you okay” //

      Totally agree. We are in a new landscape. That comment was extremely revealing.

  20. Jessie says:

    Lyrie, I agree, there were some interesting shades to Dean’s comments about Claire. On the one hand I like that he respected her choice when he said to Cas that she ditched him, let it go — but obviously, yes, she’s a kid, in trouble, and he used to be so much more protective! And she’s not “hanging” with Randy; she’s in a twisted manipulative objectified relationship with Randy and the boy she “took under her wing”. Sounds familiar….I wonder at your hesitation there Dean. Not.

    • sheila says:

      // Sounds familiar….I wonder at your hesitation there Dean. Not. //

      Ha.

      The same lack of concern went on with Alex, which I thought was fabulous. He couldn’t even see that she was a mirror. Brilliant, in my opinion. JA not ONCE tipped his hand – that was some deep deep shit, and he never let Dean see it. (But you know JA himself sees it.) Hard to play a character who doesn’t “get it” – I love it when that happens though.

      S10 so far is a swirly mess of familial problems!

  21. Lyrie says:

    // Also: I LOVED when Sam said, “I don’t think you can make it right” – or whatever it was he said, when Castiel was wondering how to make it right. That’s great, depth like that is why I love this show. In its own CW-ish way, it is uncompromising in its ambivalence. //
    Yes, great stuff, and what I love too: life is messy. No perfect solution. Things are rarely black and white. And some messed up stuff stay messed up. I felt so relieved when Dean pointed out to Cas that walking around in her dead father’s meat suit probably didn’t help. I was like: FINALLY someone said it!

  22. Barb says:

    //I dislike the Hell set intensely// Yeah, I was underwhelmed by it, too–but now I don’t think it actually IS Hell. I think it’s Crowley’s headquarters on Earth. The demon who gets put in the cell with Rowena says that she’s there because she came topside without permission. Didn’t she actually say, “up here”? I’m ok with the plain jane set if it’s just some (warehouse) basement that Crowley is using to hold court. (Similar to the one he had the prophets in during s. 8?

    • sheila says:

      Oh that’s right, either way, it looks very 80s television series to me. Fake and slightly dumb.

      They do great stuff in abandoned warehouses a lot and this feels like a set to me. It’s generic, I guess.

      Same with the jail in Heaven which is the worst set they’ve ever had.

  23. Barb says:

    Agreed–it’s uninspired.

  24. Lyrie says:

    // The same lack of concern went on with Alex, which I thought was fabulous. //
    Yes, but Alex had a vampire family, and we know that vampires are scum. (except – Oh stop it, now Lyrie!)

    • sheila says:

      No – I saw the lack of concern was a staunch denial that Alex was a mirror to his own experience. The vampires didn’t help – but I thought what was going on there was much much deeper than just that.

      • sheila says:

        In other words, if he empathized with her … he’d have to empathize with himself, or at least – at the very least – see the connection.

        Deep subtext. JA’s in charge of that – no lines to support any of it – but I felt it coursing through that episode. Super disturbing.

  25. Lyrie says:

    Sheila: I agree. I just wanted to talk about the vampires, really.
    But really, I see the disturbing mirror with Alex, and why Dean would avoid it. With Claire, it didn’t strike me that way.

    • sheila says:

      // I just wanted to talk about the vampires, really. //

      hahahaha Carry on!!

      Yeah – I didn’t see the connection either, and I think part of that was how the whole Claire thing was set up – it just didn’t have the sick queasy quality of Alex’s situation – and then there was Dean’s general annoyance that Castiel had called him for THIS. He didn’t really take it seriously.

      I don’t know – something was a little off there.

      In a way: you could feel the plot needing to move – They needed to have Dean do some horrible thing, some horrible random thing – beyond the pale – and so they backed into it by creating this cockamamie den of thieves and scary loan sharks who are so desperate that 5,000 is enough to warrant kidnap/sexual assault/human trafficking/whatever.

      Funny, though – just want to point out that SPN has done its work on me. A nest of vampires seems more real than actual live human beings.

  26. Tonya says:

    Did anyone catch what Dean’s answer to Sam at the end was? I can’t make it out.

  27. May says:

    This episode had some great lines. Crowely was conceived at an orgy. HA!

    When the social worker(?) states that what Claire needs is a “father”, the episode immediately cuts to Dean (watching the Stooges. Ah, Dad jokes). Now SPN is just openly feeding my Dean=The Good Father pet theories. They shouldn’t enable me like this!

    Speaking of daddy issues…I also really liked the JW anecdote. It is so very real, that Sam and Dean have these mixed feelings about their father. And that despite everything still love him. I appreciate that SPN hasn’t gone the route of painting John entirely as a bad guy who is now openly hated by everyone. That John did the things he did out of love is, I think, what keeps him from being hated (by his sons, at least). It’s one of the aspects of the show that I’ve always related to, having a…complicated…father myself.

    (I am blessedly free of daddy-issues. I do have some, erm, minor issues with authority, though.)

    RE: Dean being Dean. I’ve had the feeling these past few episodes that Dean is forcing himself to behave normally. That’s why his “Dean-ness” seems so overt and in-your-face. And that he’s doing it for Sam and himself, as well. I think he’s about reached his breaking point, in terms of dealing with his emotional exhaustion. He doesn’t even have the energy to fake it anymore.

    • sheila says:

      Okay, your second link has made me almost fall off my chair laughing. That was not what I was expecting at all.

    • sheila says:

      May –

      // I appreciate that SPN hasn’t gone the route of painting John entirely as a bad guy who is now openly hated by everyone. //

      Absolutely. I would be really really turned off by that. It would be way too simplistic. The show is better than that. It’s about family and family is complicated and good and bad can co-exist, uneasily, in the very same moment.

      // Now SPN is just openly feeding my Dean=The Good Father pet theories. They shouldn’t enable me like this! //

      Ha!! I love how you noticed that cut – I have to go back and watch for it.

      // And that he’s doing it for Sam and himself, as well. //

      Interesting. He really needs Sam right now, doesn’t he – I like that.

      The whole Dating App thing … even getting laid isn’t open to him right now like it used to be. Similar to S9, but totally different. He’s more troubled now – there’s an outside force working on him.

      Maybe it’s almost like a dry-drunk.

      Or someone white-knuckling sobriety.

  28. Lyrie says:

    // Maybe it’s almost like a dry-drunk.
    Or someone white-knuckling sobriety. //
    Funny you mentioned that.

    I realized this afternoon why this last scene upset me so much. I felt like watching a drunk relapsing. It just took me some time to make the connection because it’s “just” a show, because he’s not a drunk (well, that’s not his problem right now, anyway). And probably because it hurts a little.

    That look on his face? High, and lost.

  29. May says:

    Sheila — //Okay, your second link has made me almost fall off my chair laughing. That was not what I was expecting at all.//

    Hee hee! Success!

    //Ha!! I love how you noticed that cut – I have to go back and watch for it. //

    I’m (very slowly) learning!

    Barb — //The line that keeps haunting me, out of that whole John Winchester story, was Sam’s. “He saved you.” //

    My first thought when watching that scene was “Oh, was this when Dean learned how to recognize roofies?” It wasn’t roofies, exactly (I just re-watched), but Dean says that it wasn’t “fun drunk” and that he wasn’t “quite sure what was in that stuff.” So I think that John really did save him, that time.

    • sheila says:

      Oh, that’s right – Forgot about that line that someone may have spiked his drink! Oh, Dean.

      I definitely think there was more to the story.

  30. Jessie says:

    They may not have been predators but if Dean was “way underage” (in the same way that Claire was underage enough to rob the store) and got that drunk — and there were drunks and drug-users there — with sexual hothouse Dean being in some ways an innocent, depending on when we’re looking — it was a risky situation. Without wanting to liken punk fans to two-bit loan-shark rapists I think the parallel works. AT ANY RATE love the ambiguity!!

    I actually had the same thought while watching Sheila that the Randy-Claire thing could have been more effective if it were grosser. Even grosser.

    LOL at Darth, May!

    • sheila says:

      // Without wanting to liken punk fans to two-bit loan-shark rapists //

      Damn you, Supernatural, for making that sentence make sense to me!!

      I love the ambiguity too. I see the connection they were going for. It was definitely a risky situation and that was the way Dean told the story – he was too drunk, he was underage, he was by himself – but to characterize it as being surrounded by predators – that’s not what the story was (in my opinion).

      But then again, I dated a 21 year old guy when I was 16 and did all kinds of illegal shit like that. I drank, people got me into clubs, I saw drug use around me, adults bought me drinks – you know … I suppose people may have looked at my 21 year old boyfriend and think he was a perv, but whatever, he was my boyfriend, we both wore hi-top sneakers and liked Marx Brothers movies, and I didn’t like boys in high school. All this is coloring my response to that word “predators”. It’s a bit too dramatic, in my opinion. Randy was a predator.

      Punk kids at a club getting a teenage kid too drunk doesn’t qualify.

    • sheila says:

      // I actually had the same thought while watching Sheila that the Randy-Claire thing could have been more effective if it were grosser. Even grosser. //

      Yeah. If you’re gonna go there, go there – we can take it. Make those connections. Don’t pull your punches. Otherwise it feels even more manipulative somehow.

      I mean, listen, I got the sense from the way Dean told the story that he was leaving stuff out – I don’t like the use of the word “predators” in this case – but I definitely think sexual hothouse Dean (ha) could potentially have been in a lot of trouble. He may have welcomed that trouble, too – you know, like Alex did. Asking people to buy him drinks, right? Batting his eyelashes? Seeing if it worked on people. And of COURSE it WOULD work on them.

      Either way, it’s all rather fascinating.

  31. evave2 says:

    The roofie story (I don’t think of it as the CBGB story, that was a venue) bothered me because Dean was so casual about it. And Sam was so casual about it.
    I didn’t think about Sam spilling the beans to dad. I guess I prefer to think that John just “knew” where Dean would be.
    And Sam was bobbing his head and excited about the story. I LOVED Jared’s excitement about the story.
    But neither of them cared about the roofies. I can see all these “with it” New Yorkers seeing a boy who was beautiful and just all looking at each other and smiling. Then somebody striking up the conversation. And then “helping.” I would PAY to see that story acted out.

    Yeah, in retrospect, Dean was acting too much of himself. Question: my kids watch things off their computers too but they also have TVs; do you think they have a big screen TV in the bunker? Last year when Charlie and the guys watched Game of Thrones (that Joffrey is a dick) in Dean’s room did you think it was on a big screen TV? I try to map out the Bunker, that place is just as big as they need it to be, isn’t it?

    But I thought when the Mark was really taking Dean (at the beginning of Do You Believe in Miracles?) that he DID NOT eat. So what’s the deal with the Joy of Eating?

    • sheila says:

      I’m not sure what you mean by “casual”?

      Dean has been making jokes about being roofied, off and on, since almost the beginning of the series. It is clearly a part of how he understands life – a sort of whistling in the dark kind of thing – it’s probably happened to him a couple of times until he learned his lesson, he does what he can now to protect himself – but he’s always joked about it.

      To Dean, it’s kind of a funny story. A little weird, with dark edges, and stuff he probably isn’t sharing, as well as tainted by the memory of raging at his dad afterwards, but still, kind of funny too.

    • sheila says:

      and we definitely need a good map of the bunker!!

      We’ve discussed this before somewhere. The place is endless!

  32. May says:

    Jessie — //with sexual hothouse Dean being in some ways an innocent, depending on when we’re looking — it was a risky situation. Without wanting to liken punk fans to two-bit loan-shark rapists I think the parallel works. AT ANY RATE love the ambiguity!!//

    That’s my thinking as well. It was a risky situation for an innocent Dean. Who knows what really happened or what MIGHT have happened, but Dean was just too young to be there.

    //I actually had the same thought while watching Sheila that the Randy-Claire thing could have been more effective if it were grosser. Even grosser.//

    *Shudder* I’m not sure if I needed it to be more effective. I think sometimes I happy with the sanitized version!

    • sheila says:

      Dean was definitely too young to be there, and was too young to be out in NYC by himself.

      Don’t mean to sound cavalier. I didn’t find the story all that disturbing, though. Just a wild night out for a teenage kid who idolized CBGB’s and the music that came out of there – a risky night, sure, and more happened he didn’t tell, of that I’m sure, I am sure there was at LEAST some making out that was going on – but it’s one he survived, and it’s a funny story now – Especially the punk kid who called his dad “Sir.” and the memory is ruined a little bit (for Dean anyway) by how he was mad at his father afterwards.

      Every moment containing its opposite.

  33. Barb says:

    The “saved” line came from Cas? Dang–I was so sure it was Sam! I even heard it as Sam when I was watching it last night. Perception is for crap, apparently. Ok–“nevermind”.

    Though, the resonances are still there, just skewed in a different way, I guess.

    • sheila says:

      Yeah, I need to watch these things twice to nail them down in my memory – funny what sticks, and what gets messed up.

      This is why I take obsessive notes in the dark at all the movie screenings I go to. I don’t want to make mistakes or mis-attribute a line to the wrong person!

  34. Lyrie says:

    Now I feel like an idiot for having written my last comment – dumb, and probably too personal. Of course, there’s a parallel between theMoC and addiction. It’s not new, and I noticed it before. Yet, I was so swept up by the story that I was just in the moment. Heartbroken. And then I thought about it all day, felt that familiar mix of disappointment and angst…
    Anyway. Moving on. Except, I have to live with that until January 20!

    May: the dad jokes! I laughed so hard!

    I have so much to say about John Winchester, but I’d probably express myself terribly, and I’ve written too much already and it would get too personal and then everybody here would hate me (for those who don’t already) and then I’d be The Crazy Reformed Drinker Obsessed With Vampires Who Writes Too Much.

    Angst.

    • sheila says:

      Don’t feel like an idiot, Crazy Reformed Drinker Obsessed With Vampires Who Writes Too Much!!

      This show taps into deep stuff and we all make deep personal connections with it. They may not be the same from person to person – that’s the beauty of it.

      I am clearly bothering everyone by over-identifying with Dean currently, because of my own wild-child teenage years, so I’ll have to let that go. :) Sorry everyone! My parents did their best to slow me down and I’m lucky nothing really terrible happened to me. At least not then. But that’s where I’m coming from with all this – bah, I’ll stop now!

      // Yet, I was so swept up by the story that I was just in the moment. Heartbroken. And then I thought about it all day, felt that familiar mix of disappointment and angst… //

      Yeah, it was a really powerful moment. He was snapping out of it – and he looked devastated. Sated, and yet devastated.

  35. Barb says:

    //This is why I take obsessive notes in the dark at all the movie screenings I go to. // Ah, good advice! Where did I put that notebook–?

    Do you have one of those pens with the tiny spotlight on it?

    • sheila says:

      Ha! I don’t – those things are REALLY annoying in the darkness!

      Sometimes trying to decipher my scrawled comments, written in the dark, is quite a challenge.

  36. mutecypher says:

    Lyrie –

    I’m going through a divorce now, so I may have had an extra dose of exaltation and joy in Dean knifing everything in that room that had a pulse. Sorry to hear that the addiction parallel strikes close to home. Despite all of that you seem to take pleasure in the show. Me too. Take care.

    A song that has nothing to do with the show, but sustains me when I’m a bit down.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PC57z-oDPLs

  37. Natalie says:

    Okay, brace yourselves. I have a lot to say here. Feel free to skip it ;-)

    I actually really liked this episode overall, so I don’t want to get overly negative, but I just HAVE to address this. Even though I’ve moved on to a different (related) field, and I’m not a social worker anymore (nor do I want to be ever again), I still get really worked up about how social work and child welfare agencies are portrayed in the media. More so than I do with how mental health/counseling is portrayed in the media, because therapists are not generally thought of as “the enemy,” and there is plenty of information that’s easy to find to counterbalance the inaccuracies of how mental health is portrayed on TV. This is not the case with social services/CPS. Media portrayals usually fall into one of two categories: social workers are evil people who want to take kids away from their families/prevent people from adopting children/warehouse children in foster care/etc., or they are lazy, negligent drain-on-the-economy government workers who falsify documentation and allow abusive parents to kill their babies and foster parents to use foster care as a moneymaking scheme. Public perception is not that much better – I can’t tell you how many user comments I’ve read on news stories about a child fatality when CPS was involved with the family that blamed the social worker for the child’s death – because apparently, social workers are supposed to be clairvoyant. (Child fatalities are also pretty much the only time you hear about what social workers do in the news, which adds to the negative public perception.) So having social workers (and the child welfare system as a whole) portrayed this way in TV shows and movies is just inexcuseable, as far as I’m concerned. Yes, there are bad workers out there, and the system is FAR from perfect, but the people working these jobs are generally doing the best they can with a broken system and unmanageable caseloads, for very little pay (seriously, a lot of food service workers make more than I did, without the added burden of student loans), and often at the risk of their own safety (in my own 3 years as a front-line CPS worker, I was attacked by dogs, repeatedly sexually harrassed by an extremely creepy client, yelled at, threatened, and even at one point allegedly on a gang’s hit list). Their job, which many often forget, is to KEEP AT-RISK CHILDREN SAFE. In other words, they are not the enemy

    So, having established why I have such strong feelings about this, hopefully you all will understand why I feel the need to take issue with some of the stuff that came up in this episode:

    1.) Least restrictive placement is the general rule of thumb in treatment facilities. Seclusion is used by a lot of psych hospitals, residential treatment facilities, and group homes (but not all). It is ONLY supposed to be used for crisis management. Patients/residents are secluded when their behavior is placing themselves or others at immediate risk of physical harm. The maximum amount of time for seclusion is generally going to be no more than a few hours (and usually less). Seclusion rooms are supposed to be a safe place for the resident to calm down. In the residential facility where I worked, the doors to seclusion rooms had to be physically held shut by a staff member, who monitored what was happening in the room at all times through a one-way window. The door is opened as soon as possible, preferably a few minutes after the resident has demonstrated an ability to remain calm, and the staff then processes the crisis event with the resident and creates a safety plan with them before returning them to the group. It is not meant to be punitive, ever. Placing a minor child in isolation for 48 hours as a punishment for running away is, to the best of my knowledge, COMPLETELY ILLEGAL in the entire United States. (I know for sure that it is illegal in my state.) That group home should probably be shut down.

    2. “Oh, hi, I’m Claire’s dad, the one who’s been MIA for the last five years. I’m not going to explain anything about where I’ve been, but I’d like to see my daughter and have some alone time with her.”
    “Sure, no problem!”

    SERIOUSLY???

    If this happened in real life, the person who allowed the visit would, at minimum, be written up. Possibly fired.

    3. Social workers do not have the authority to approve or deny custody. Group home workers (or administrators or directors or whatever she was) DEFINITELY do not have the authority to approve or deny custody. Custody can only be granted or denied by court order. This is done by filing a petition with the court, which then results in a hearing being scheduled. Of course, plot-wise, this would not have made sense for Cas to do, because it would have taken way too long. (Family court seriously sucks.)

    I really think the whole story would have been better served if Cas had snuck into the facility to begin with, and busted Claire out without ever talking to the group home lady at all.

    These issues aside, I actually liked the group home lady and the things she had to say about Claire and what Claire needed. I really think Sam’s interview with her would have been sufficient to get the information about Dustin to track Claire down.

    This comment is already way too long, so I’m going to save the rest of my reactions to the episode for another comment :-)

    • sheila says:

      Natalie –

      I always love to hear your perspective on these things. I really really appreciate it.

      Some of your stories … sheesh. I have friends who have done that kind of work, too – CPS and social work – and it’s back-breaking thankless stuff, and yes, they are blamed when things go horribly wrong. It’s terrible.

      The seclusion room was over the top!

      Wondering if you’ve seen Short Term 12? It’s a movie about a group home for kids trapped in the wilderness of the foster care system. Came out last year, I think. I thought it was fantastic and highlighted the work that the people do who work in those group homes – many of them post-college kids. So they’re on the front lines with these kids, as the court system and everyone else deals with them. I thought it was compassionate, but I would be really interested to hear your take on it.

  38. mutecypher says:

    Natalie –

    I also thought it was ridiculous that Cas was allowed to be alone with Claire just a “yo, I’m the dad.” And all of my experience with such things is second hand.

    I had a girlfriend (before marriage, not during) who worked in a group home. I think it was something like 6 days on, and 2 or 3 days off – just an insane work load and for a tiny amount of money. And rules for the counselors and how they could interact with their charges, oy. It’s an admirable and challenging line of work.

    I think the show just had to have a scene where Cas was a doofus, for the fans of such things. So they had to do it with the group home lady, and give Claire a chance to try to de-doofus Cas (and fail). If Cas had just come in and taken Claire, we would have missed that (not that I would object). We could still have had the scene later with Sam interviewing the group home doctor/counselor, an excellent scene.

    I wish Cas would get back to being a creature whose true form is the size of the Chrysler Building. But that ship has already foundered.

    • sheila says:

      // I wish Cas would get back to being a creature whose true form is the size of the Chrysler Building //

      Ha!

      I know! I miss ferocious mysterious Castiel, and I suppose one of these days I’ll let it go.

      He does provide something interesting for the brothers – a kind of openness that forces them to be open – why else would Dean have shared that CBGB’s story? Castiel just asked the question, like a 5 year old would do, not being careful of how Sam and Dean would react – just asking it. That was nice.

  39. Natalie says:

    mutecypher –

    I admit that I laughed at the “sleep tight and don’t let them bite” answer to the bedbugs question. (Although, that reminds me, bedbug infestations are another risk of the job. I got bedbugs from a client. It cost over a thousand dollars that I really couldn’t afford to treat my house, my agency’s position was that there was no way to conclusively prove that I got them in the line of duty, so they had no obligation to assist me with the costs, and I was told that I still had to conduct visits with clients in their homes even when they had known bedbug infestations. I was also told that if I was that concerned, I could conduct my home visits outside, on the porch. This was in December, by the way. I turned in my resignation less than a month later.)

    Anyway, I think SPN had ample opportunity for cutesy Cas moments in this episode even without that scene. That said, I did really like Claire in that scene. I thought she was very believable, and she reminded me of some of my old teenage clients. She was a good balance of sweet and vulnerable with tough and obnoxious – both in that scene and the rest of the episode. And I also actually did really like Cas trying to be a father figure. “She’s urinating” was one of the funniest lines in the episode.

    I appear to be in the minority, but I did like the whole thing with Randy and Dustin. Randy had a similar effect on me that John Winchester did. There was a part of me that almost wanted to like him, until the whole “well, you didn’t try hard enough” thing. And then I was like, oh, I get who you are now. There were moments that were forced, but overall, I thought he served his purpose well. Fagin was also my first thought when he was introduced. He was so very much like Fagin that I wouldn’t have been surprised if he started singing You’ve Got to Pick a Pocket or Two. (Weird personal connection: there was a creepy older guy named Randy who was part of an activist group that my parents participated in when I was a teenager who once told us that he played Fagin in a local theater production. He fit the part.)

    I also thought the rape thing did work for the episode. I don’t think Cas bursting in and saving the day was the point – the point was that a positive anecdote about John as a father led directly into a scene in which Randy was pimping out his “adopted” daughter. Of course, it’s not an exact parallel to John pimping Dean out – as May pointed out, John made his choices out of love. Misguided, codependent love, but love nonetheless. That’s part of what made him so real. Randy, on the other hand, pimped Claire out to settle his gambling debts. He faked it well, but he didn’t really love her.

    Claire telling Cas that she used to pray to him broke my heart. And he listened to her prayers and didn’t respond? Harsh. And she had my favorite line of the episode: “You’re not sorry. You feel guilty. There’s a difference.” Very astute, little one.

    God (or whoever it was that reassembled Cas’s vessel) has a meticulous attention to detail – he was reassembled right down to Jimmy’s wallet, apparently!

    I CANNOT WAIT to see where things are going with Crowley and his momma. All the little under-the-surface manipulations that were happening in their scenes were awesome. They were both playing their hands so close to the chest – I have no idea what either of their agendas are, and I’m looking forward to how this will develop.

    Dean’s Dean behavior may have been a bit heavy-handed, but it was certainly effective – I know I was putty in his hands by the last scene, and it made his descent into violence that much more terrifying and heartbreaking.

    Lyrie – I really enjoy your perspectives. It’s frighteningly easy to relate to this show on a really deep-down personal level. You haven’t even come close to oversharing ;-) Also, your English is remarkably good. I’ve seen you apologize for it several times, but I have to say, you seem to have a better grasp of the language than a lot of native speakers. (At least, a lot of American native speakers.)

    • sheila says:

      Bed bugs. Shivers. I had them, and it was an absolute nightmare to get rid of them. I am convinced I got them from all the movies I go to. One huge multiplex in Manhattan had an infestation and didn’t tell anyone. A concession stand employee contacted the NY Times and blew the whistle on it – causing the multiplex to shut down for one day. ONE DAY. You don’t get rid of a bed bug infestation in one day. I will never ever go to that theatre again – but I’m sure there are others out there. Horrible. They had to close down an entire subway line recently because there was an infestation on the damn train. Ugh.

      // I don’t think Cas bursting in and saving the day was the point – the point was that a positive anecdote about John as a father led directly into a scene in which Randy was pimping out his “adopted” daughter. //

      I need to watch that sequence again. I’ve only seen the episode once, and feel I am missing a lot of subtleties. That is an interesting dovetail – one of the cool ways the show is put together – to sort of “soothe” us with a family anecdote and then thrust us into another family dynamic to shake us up. That was definitely on the episode’s mind – the whole family thing has been such a theme – but I think I’m missing some of those connections.

      // And he listened to her prayers and didn’t respond? Harsh. //

      Yes, that was a devastating moment. Castiel, really? This could prove to be a very interesting arc for the character – more human than angel, really – but still, interesting.

      // God (or whoever it was that reassembled Cas’s vessel) has a meticulous attention to detail – he was reassembled right down to Jimmy’s wallet, apparently! //

      Ha!!

      I’m really excited for the Crowley Family Drama too. Rowena is great, I love that actress.

  40. mutecypher says:

    Natalie –

    I can’t hear the name “Randy” without thinking of Stan’s dad on South Park, so he was a ridiculous figure in my head before he really got going. His glasses gave him a Sons Of Anarchy look, to my mind. A skeezy biker kinda thing, without being an alpha in the Outlaw department. The creator of the show, Kurt Sutter, wears glasses – though his rims are thicker than Randy’s. I don’t know if they did that on porpoise, but Tuesday was the series finale. Maybe their nod to the show.

    Man, bedbugs. Glad you resigned and got another job.

    • sheila says:

      I need to get on the Sons of Anarchy bandwagon – I was seeing so much chatter about the finale everywhere. It got me curious!

  41. Helena says:

    //Dean’s Dean behavior may have been a bit heavy-handed, but it was certainly effective –//

    Interesting responses to Dean’s behaviour … I got the feeling from the get go that all that behaviour was ‘off’, too much by a few notches. Maybe trying to convince himself that he was still ‘normal’ – doing things he didn’t do the last time he was spiralling down, laughing (just a bit too hard), eating, whatever. Like his exchange with Sam at the end of the previous episode that he feels more like himself because the opposite is the case. Though the truth slips out in the ‘kill me’ scene with Cas.

    • sheila says:

      I also think – in those moments – sometimes “faking it til you make it” works. Laughing about the Three Stooges is its own medicine – and it feels good, but it’s hard to let go of worries – so Dean is doing his best. These are clips he’s watched a thousand times.

      // Like his exchange with Sam at the end of the previous episode that he feels more like himself because the opposite is the case. //

      Right! He’s trying to find his way back into himself. It’s been a long time, right? He hasn’t felt like himself in ages.

  42. Natalie says:

    Helena, I agree that Dean was trying to convince himself that he was okay – and also trying to convince Sam. I think he’s pretty uncomfortable with Sam’s mothering. That’s supposed to be HIS role.

    mutecypher –
    //She was up for training hookers to become witches, but happy to betray the demon who helped her out of the dungeon? No chick-solidarity there.//

    I think it was more that there was no demon solidarity there. I don’t get the impression that Rowena thinks too highly of demons. Remember when she talked about the types of witches? She seemed pretty proud of the fact that she was a natural witch who didn’t have to borrow power from demons. Which makes her unknown agenda in joining forces with head demon Crowley that much more intriguing.

    • sheila says:

      Yeah, I’m really interested in Rowena and what her deal is. What exactly are her powers, too? She’s clearly not invincible – they are able to chain her up, and she’s not able to break free.

      I love how Crowley keeps getting sucked into the hurt from his childhood – “But you did such and such to me – how could you??” and she is just like, “Come on, can’t we just let it go? That was the past!!”

      What a shock that Crowley doesn’t have a father! (Not.)

  43. Barb says:

    Natalie — //I think he’s pretty uncomfortable with Sam’s mothering. That’s supposed to be HIS role.//

    I loved how Sam just sort of set the plate down in that scene, with zero fanfare. Total opposite of Dean with his serving tray taking care of Sam in s. 8. It also put me in mind of the bit at the beginning of that season, when he buys a hamburger for Dean, and then unceremoniously shoves the basket towards him when it arrives at the table. I don’t think Sam is entirely comfortable in the caretaker role, either–at least, not when it comes to the domestic stuff!

  44. May says:

    Sheila — //Don’t mean to sound cavalier. I didn’t find the story all that disturbing, though.//

    I don’t think you sound cavalier. I don’t find the story particularly disturbing either, in and of itself. Sneaking out, underage, to CBGB sounds like a very Dean thing to do. I do think the story implies that Dean wasn’t ready to be there. How and why it was risky for him is left to our imagination. And since it’s young Dean we are talking about, we’re all (well, I am) worried about him being stalked by sexual predators. People are always creeping on him!

    mutecypher — //I can’t hear the name “Randy” without thinking of Stan’s dad on South Park, so he was a ridiculous figure in my head before he really got going. //

    Hee. Same here.

    Natalie — //I think it was more that there was no demon solidarity there. I don’t get the impression that Rowena thinks too highly of demons. //

    That’s what I think too. She’s the only witch to ever make that demon-killing spell? Regardless, she doesn’t seem to like them much.

  45. May says:

    Barb — //I loved how Sam just sort of set the plate down in that scene, with zero fanfare. Total opposite of Dean with his serving tray taking care of Sam in s. 8. It also put me in mind of the bit at the beginning of that season, when he buys a hamburger for Dean, and then unceremoniously shoves the basket towards him when it arrives at the table. I don’t think Sam is entirely comfortable in the caretaker role, either–at least, not when it comes to the domestic stuff!//

    Yes! That’s a great observation. Sam, for all the “you’re such a girl” joking Dean does, is NOT comfortable with…let’s call them stereotypically feminine…roles. I’ve always thought Sam loves the opportunity to take on an older-brother role with other people and play his idealized version of Dean. But Dean is really very motherly in a lot of ways that I don’t think Sam is necessarily consciously aware of.

    • sheila says:

      // But Dean is really very motherly in a lot of ways that I don’t think Sam is necessarily consciously aware of. //

      Totally. That whole dynamic is fascinating.

  46. Lyrie says:

    The name Randy is in my favourite line of one of my favourite show, in one of my favourite episode. So stupid it makes me laugh out loud every time I think about it. Right up there with « Dean grimly ».
    I’ll send maple syrup to the first one who finds out which show and which episode. (no cheating with google) (too bad if you’re Canadian)

    “Ready Randy?
    Ready Joan.”

  47. Michelle says:

    // “You’re not sorry. You feel guilty. There’s a difference.” Very astute, little one.//

    Agreed…very astute indeed. You know there was an angle with Cas going to find Jimmy’s daughter that I was expecting them to address and they didn’t.

    Cas is still ultimately dying right? He’s fine at the moment but the grace he has is still borrowed. I was honestly expecting this to be more of a storyline that Cas wanted to make sure Jimmy’s daughter was ok before he died. They haven’t talked about that in several episodes though.

    • sheila says:

      Michelle – yeah, I was thinking about that too – the grace issue. He seemed to have his powers back – putting people to sleep, blowing doors back, etc. – but other than that, he seems fine. It’s definitely going to come up again though –

      How does one get one’s grace back?

      Inquiring minds want to know …

  48. Lyrie says:

    Sheila:
    You’re allowed to project your personal shit much more than us (here, I mean. Not in our heads. You’re not the boss of us, of course. Who do you think you are, Elvis?): this is your site. We’re here because we enjoy reading your stories, we like your perspective. As guests, maybe we should hold back a little more? That’s what I feel for myself, but I enjoy when other people share too. You’ve created a space where we feel we can do that. If that’s OK with the hostess, that’s really cool. Thank you, Sheila.

    // I’m also glad you share these things, it gives the rest of us permission to bring our own experiences into the conversations. //

    Yes. What Mutecypher said.

    About CBGB: thanks for the explanation! We have until January 20 to chew on this episode, so maybe someday I’ll talk about that very, very strange thing that is New York.

    Mutecypher:
    I’m sorry about your divorce. I was lucky enough to get married and divorced very young. That’s done. I hope First Aid Kit will help along the ride. And of course, the violence by proxy. That can help too. For Mutecypher, go, Demon Dean!
    As for the addiction parallel striking close to home: it’s all good. It’s part of the reasons why I love the show. It did trigger a rough patch this summer when I first watched the 9 seasons in 14 days (oh yeah). But it also helped me sublimate my own shit, as good fiction does. With humour, two hotties and an awesome car. What else could we ask for, really?
    Take care too.

    Helena:
    // I got the feeling from the get go that all that behaviour was ‘off’, too much by a few notches.  //
    Sheila: // I also think – in those moments – sometimes “faking it til you make it” works. //

    I too, had the feeling it was too much, and it made me very uneasy. Of course, “faking it til you make it” can work, and sometimes you try to convince yourself. You also fake it when you don’t want to impose your ill-being on the people close to you – he probably doesn’t want Sam to worry. For many reasons. It’s not just one thing.

    Natalie:
    Don’t apologize for long posts or we’ll all have to apologize!

    // Lyrie – I really enjoy your perspectives. It’s frighteningly easy to relate to this show on a really deep-down personal level. You haven’t even come close to oversharing ;-) Also, your English is remarkably good. I’ve seen you apologize for it several times, //

    Thank you, you’re very kind !
    I know you’ll all be nice and forgive grammatical errors. But I get very frustrated when I lack the words to express subtle and complex ideas. I read all your intelligent comments and sometimes I’d like to add something, but it just doesn’t come out right. I like to think I’m (a little) smarter in French.

    I know I swear too much. Do I apologize too much, too ? I’m so sorry.
    Fuck.

    • sheila says:

      // You’re not the boss of us, of course. Who do you think you are, Elvis? //

      HAHAHAHA

      // You’ve created a space where we feel we can do that. If that’s OK with the hostess, that’s really cool. Thank you, Sheila. //

      You are most welcome – and it’s more than OK – it’s awesome – what’s the fun of talking about Supernatural if you can’t project all your own stuff onto it? Publicly?

      I love what you say about sublimating your own stuff into the show. It makes me think about a comment one of my favorite acting teachers made in class once: He said, “I am a big fan of sublimation. Do you know what sublimation is? You take your pain … and you make it sublime.”

      I’ve always been a big fan of it myself.

  49. Heather says:

    Lyrie, I’m Canadian and I don’t need any maple syrup so I won’t name the show, just say I watched it to the point of memorization and one of my favourite lines from that episode was “Hey. Stay away from Randy!”.

    About the whole Randy as a reluctant pimp (gag) thing, I also felt it was a bit rushed and missing in gravitas. But I figured the reason they didn’t make all the ‘bad guys’ evil to the level we know they can go on SPN, was to deny Dean a good reason for killing them all. I thought they made them lame so that Sam’s terrifying “tell me you had too” line could be as desperate as it sounded. Wouldn’t be as worried about Dean’s soul as I am now if those had been the family in “The Benders”. Although what I saw as the show playing a bit light with the whole thing really bugged me, cause the rapist and the surrogate father pimp and all their little friends who went along with the deal are horrible! Reminds me of a conversation I had with a colleague who is also a teacher at an alternative high school, like myself. We were venting and she was telling a story about a mother who was trying to convince her daughter to get into prostitution. After the initial gasps, stomach rolling and head shaking, I suggested “maybe the mother is possessed by a demon?”. She laughed. I thought, ‘man do I have a weird frame of reference now’.

    Natalie, I just wanted to say that in my job I have worked with many social workers from Children’s Aid Society and thanked the gods for them. It bothers me too when child welfare workers are seen as the enemy because it makes helping an already bad situation so much worse. I stopped telling people what I do for a living (teacher/guidance counsellor) at parties because of the vitriol- and at least everyone has actual experiences that they draw on to form their bitterness towards my job. People really don’t have a clue of what the workers at C.A.S. do and still they have the worst ideas.

    And that isolation room…wow. Not even a blanket, but bizarrely large. It looked like something out of Star Trek or a psych experiment.

    It is interesting, I have seen adolescents who have parents I could flatteringly call pieces-of-shit (Sheila’s mum, you would understand the need for this language) defend them out of love and devotion. I couldn’t help thinking of that during the bar scene with Sam and Dean discussing their father. Children find ways to love their parents.

    I understand that Cas wants to do right by Claire, but he is wearing her dead father’s face! I loved Sam and Dean’s reaction to the situation. Yeah she is in trouble; you ruined her life, what are you going to do? These were good choices and so appropriately bitter. Really, what is the plan, Claire can hang with them? Cause that has worked for nobody.

    So do you think Rowena is going to coax Crowley to be the new Big Bad (again)?

    • sheila says:

      I need to know this Canadian show of which you speak!!

      // was to deny Dean a good reason for killing them all. I thought they made them lame so that Sam’s terrifying “tell me you had too” line could be as desperate as it sounded. //

      Yes, Heather, I think that’s a really good point. It needed to be fairly un-justified. I also love that we didn’t see him actually do the killing. It was like he went into a fugue state and woke up surrounded by bodies.

      // I loved Sam and Dean’s reaction to the situation. Yeah she is in trouble; you ruined her life, what are you going to do? //

      Yeah, that was great – a great outside perspective.

      And hmmm, Rowena: she does seem to be trying to make amends so they can pair up. But what is she ultimately after? Gonna be really interesting to find out.

  50. Heather says:

    Lyrie,//I know you’ll all be nice and forgive grammatical errors.//

    I’ll forgive you yours if you forgive me mine…which are driving me crazy right now!

  51. Helena says:

    //Although what I saw as the show playing a bit light with the whole thing really bugged me, cause the rapist and the surrogate father pimp and all their little friends who went along with the deal are horrible!//

    Heather – interested that you feel they were playing a bit light with these guys. Could you say a bit more?

  52. Lyrie says:

    // Lyrie, I’m Canadian and I don’t need any maple syrup //
    Oh hi, Canadian person! What am I supposed to send from Montreal, really, except really good maple syrup with a label written in French?
    Would you like something else? Do you like Firefly?

    // I won’t name the show, just say I watched it to the point of memorization and one of my favourite lines from that episode was “Hey. Stay away from Randy!” //
    That whole episode. So stupid. I love it so, so much.

  53. Heather says:

    Helena: // interested that you feel they were playing a bit light with these guys. Could you say a bit more?//

    Yes I can- because I don’t want to do work!
    First though let me say that I only watched the episode once, during air time, and so I am sure that I will see with greater accuracy once I have access to re-watch to my obsessive heart’s content. So feel free to forgive and correct anything I missed. What I was referring to as ‘light treatment’ comes from two things mainly: the cliche of it all, and in comparison to other villains we have seen on the show.
    The whole ‘Claire needing to be rescued before she is raped’ thing feels cliched to me now. I’ve seen it so often it doesn’t strike the same chord. In other words, I wasn’t really afraid that she would be raped. When SPN wants to portray rape, they don’t actually show it, they show the trauma, the shame, the terror and mind-fuckery of it. But the set up sequence of: girl in the room alone sitting on the bed; bad guys discussing petty loan; our heroes; bad Randy waffling; heroes; girl in room; Randy agreeing; girl in room and door opens… pause for commercial; etc. (I’m sure I am not accurately depicting the sequence because I can’t remember it all) but that set up doesn’t trigger the same reaction as say the danger over the MOC. Instead, I know that they are just setting up this bad situation so she can be rescued. I’m not going to have to worry about Claire’s trauma from this the way I worried about Alex and therefore by extension the ‘bad guys’ are seen as less scary and more conventional. When SPN wants us to fear a villain and relish their death they know how to accomplish it. I was actually glad when Dean killed rapey Cuthbert Sinclair, cause he scared me. In this episode I felt they weighted it so that we were as much, if not more, scared for/of Dean.

    I am also very open to the idea that I am desensitized because of how much sexualized violence to females I see on-screen. So I could just be a little dead inside. I hope this clarifies a bit.

    • sheila says:

      // I’ve seen it so often it doesn’t strike the same chord. In other words, I wasn’t really afraid that she would be raped. //

      That was my issue with it. The comparison with how they handled Alex is definitely instructive. You could see all over Alex’s face all the things she had done, all the bad things, and how – even queasier – she had maybe enjoyed a lot of it. And that will be the thing that will be difficult to handle, come to terms with. That’s the sick queasy side of this sexual assault stuff – that often comes out in Dean’s behavior too – the batting-eyelashes stuff, his “comfort” in being bait and in using himself that way … he brings it out of people/monsters, he does it on purpose – it’s somewhat automatic for him. Maybe not so much now – but definitely in those early seasons.

      // When SPN wants us to fear a villain and relish their death they know how to accomplish it. I was actually glad when Dean killed rapey Cuthbert Sinclair, cause he scared me. In this episode I felt they weighted it so that we were as much, if not more, scared for/of Dean. //

      Excellent!! I think that’s spot on, now that I’m thinking about it more.

      Thanks for all this!

  54. Jessie says:

    Well said Heather!

  55. Helena says:

    Thanks, Heather, that’s an awesome response.

  56. Heather says:

    (blushing) aw, shucks…

  57. May says:

    Sheila — //what’s the fun of talking about Supernatural if you can’t project all your own stuff onto it? Publicly?//

    LOL! SPN is Andy from season two, Obi-Wanning us into oversharing.

  58. Alison says:

    I enjoy this commentary so much. All of you seem to get right to the point behind things and show me things I missed when I saw the episode. I’m almost intimidated to jump in with my comments.

    I liked Claire. It seems that S10 is the season of strong women: Jody, Donna, Rowena, and strong teen girls: Marie, Maeve, and now Claire. I liked that Claire didn’t really need rescuing — she just needed Cas to distract Mr. Evil Rapey guy so she could put the boots to his gonads a couple of dozen times. In fact, taking into account the number of kicks, it’s amazing he was able to go back downstairs and hit Dean with that beer bottle. I figured he’d have to spend at least a half hour in a fetal position, cradling his groin.

    I liked that Claire was hostile to the boys (I nearly died laughing when she called Dean ‘Hasselhof’.) For all that they came busting in to save her like big damn heroes, they are really the Big Bads in her life. They were instrumental in taking her father away and destroying her family. No wonder she remembers their names. And is not impressed.

    The NYC anecdote was awesome, but it underscored for me that Dean is still in denial about his dad. “He was there when we needed him.” Like when he dumped you in a boys’ home? Or when he didn’t come back on Christmas Eve? Or when he wouldn’t answer the phone for most of Season One? The only time it seems that Dean let himself see John for what he really was, was when he was Demon Dean taunting Sam.

    I like the addiction parallel someone mentioned upthread. My ex was an alcolholic, and I know the tiptoeing around on eggshells that you do when you’re trying to gauge someone’s state of mind so that you can moderate your behaviour to avoid an argument. The looks that Sam was throwing Dean when Dean was watching the Stooges on the computer looked like just those sort of looks. Like he was taking Dean’s emotional temperature. I think that Sam remembered that Demon Dean/MOC Dean had little interest in food (the comment in Soul Survivor when Dean was cured and Sam said he was going to hand feed him burgers), so bringing the sandwich was an attempt to reassure himself that Dean is not being affected by the mark. Sam eventually sat down and watched with Dean, but he still looked a bit uneasy.

    Someone upthread (I’m sorry I didn’t pay attention to whom) said that Sam seems uncomfortable in the mother role, but Dean does not. Maybe because Sam never had a mother and Dean did, at least for a bit?

    • sheila says:

      Alison – hello!! Thank you for commenting! Don’t be intimidated! Happy you are here. :)

      I, too, am loving how many women so far have been featured in S10 – not to mention Rowena. It’s refreshing, I really like it.

      // The looks that Sam was throwing Dean when Dean was watching the Stooges on the computer looked like just those sort of looks. Like he was taking Dean’s emotional temperature. //

      Yes. Although it is also reminding me of “Everybody Loves a Clown” – back in S2 which I wrote about here. I get that the Mark of Cain is worrisome – but the overall feeling is that people just cannot let Dean BE. Just let him BE. Dean is the center of attention, and always has been, even when he tries to hide and protect himself, and he hates it, but also expects it, and has this uneasy relationship with being important. He has created the Burlesque Act of personality as a way to DEAL with it – and I saw the Stooges/grilled cheese/blah blah as a part of that burlesque. Like: stop LOOKING at me. For the love of GOD.

      I may be in the minority, but I don’t see Dean’s feelings about his Dad as being “in denial.” I see it as a representation of the grey areas of life – of complexity – that things are very rarely just one thing – i.e. bad or good – but a mix of both. Especially when it comes to family.

      That nuance is crucial: You can be pissed off at your father and still have some affection for him – you can recognize that the way you were raised was horrible – and yet still have some good memories, or still feel that your dad was doing his best.

      The FANS can see John Winchester as a black-dyed villain – but that just wouldn’t work for the characters. Their feelings are going to be more complex. I adore the complexity and as I mentioned would be really turned off if Sam or Dean were like, “Dad was a DOUCHE, end-stop.”

      That would not be satisfying story-telling for me. I like the resistance to labeling Dad as bad, or whatever. Dean totally understood why his father left him in the Boys’ Home. We on the outside may be like, “Jeez Louise …” but that’s not Dean’s experience. I prefer to not label it as “being in denial” but as representative of his true ambivalence, his mix of feelings. Sure, maybe he’s at war with himself – I think that’s part of it. But I also think there’s a lot of truth in his outlook. For example: Dad’s leaving him in the Boys Home meant he got to experience normalcy, briefly. Maybe he’s thankful for that. Maybe on some level he feels he has his dad to thank for that.

      Life isn’t black or white.

      I am just happy that John W. is being mentioned so much so far in S10!! I can’t get enough!

  59. Alison says:

    I forgot one thing. I understand Sam’s being aghast at Dean’s killing spree, after all, they were human even though they were criminals. But neither Dean nor Sam seem to care when they slaughter the innocent humans being possessed by demons almost every episode. The decision made by the writers, or whomever, to stop with the exorcisms really bothered me. It’s like the ‘saving people’ part of the family business is being ignored.

    I realize that sometimes time is of the essence, and the Latinating might not work in time to stop a demon from stabbing, but Sam *tortured* some poor woman that the crossroad demon was wearing. And the one that bothered me the most was the poor woman in curlers with the historic city map and the crush on Dean in the episode where Crowley was looking for Lucifer’s crypt. They had plenty of time to exorcise her, and they stabbed her instead.

  60. Maureen says:

    Sounds like we have some Buffy fans in the house!! Sheila, that is the show that Lyrie and Heather are talking about-a great episode where the gang loses their memories-one of my favorites.

    I don’t have much to add, except I am loving the commenting thread-as usual!

  61. Lyrie says:

    // what’s the fun of talking about Supernatural if you can’t project all your own stuff onto it? Publicly? //
    Right?

    // You take your pain … and you make it sublime.” //
    That’s awesome! And it works in French too, so I’ll probably reuse it.

    I mislead you, I was not talking about a Canadian show: yes, it was Buffy, season 6, Tabula Rasa. I just didn’t know what else to send from Montreal except really good maple syrup, because that’s usually what my friends from France ask for. But that’s not very interesting if you’re Canadian, I suppose.
    So Heather, I might have something for you if you’re a Firefly fan.
    Maureen, would you like maple syrup with a label written in French? What other good would like from Montreal? Some snow, maybe?
    Anyway, if you feel like it, you can both give me your addresses or say hi at : cadenceparfaite at gmail dot com

  62. Maureen says:

    I’m fine, Lyrie-thank you for offering though! I live in Anchorage, so snow is usually not too scarce :)

  63. Cat says:

    Jessie, I didn’t like the actress either. I thought she was quite poor especially compared to the original Claire. I thought she had no depth and no range and no pathos. Just bleh

  64. Heather says:

    Lyrie, talking about Buffy, thinking about Buffy, is its own reward. But thank you. I did like Firefly, but not to the obsessive, write a paper deconstructing the rise of the Super-Femme for one of my University courses, level. Your continued insights and appreciations of things Sheila, SPN, etcetera, are all I need.

    Maureen, you live in Anchorage? Now that is a city I would like to visit.

  65. Lyrie says:

    Alaska? Awesome! It’s my second winter in Quebec and people expect me to hate it, but I love it. Snow!! I’d love to visit Alaska someday.

    I realize now that my offer may have make me come across as this guy this guy (trying to write a link without fucking the tags up again…) So I suppose you made the smart choice, ladies! ;)
    I have something I don’t want anymore and could please a Firefly fan, but I’ll find someone, someday, who wants it.
    Anyway, moving on!

    I’m currently trying to write about the « Claire and the rape threat thing », but that’s typically the kind of subject on which I’m limited by the language. Frustrating!

  66. mutecypher says:

    Heather –

    //talking about Buffy, thinking about Buffy, is its own reward.//

    Have you read any of the graphic novels/comics? I really liked season 8, but haven’t been interested enough to make it through season 9. I also like “Fray.”

    Who do you think would win in a battle of magic: Willow or Rowena? My money’s on Willow.

  67. mutecypher says:

    And speaking of Rowena … a son she seemed to loathe is now a kind of creature she detests. It’s hard to see two hates becoming affection – though no one with even half a brain looks to the heart for reason. It’s a perverse muscle.

    Poor Crowley. I wonder if he knows the Hunter S. Thompson remembered line from a forgotten poem “All my life, my heart has sought a thing I cannot name.” The dude should be like Cortez: burn the ships. There’s no going back, just forward.

  68. Heather says:

    mutecypher: I did collect season 8 and 9 as comics, but my interest dwindled and I stopped at season 10. The gang kinda broke up and it felt far from the show. Just when I stopped, it looked like they were coming back together, but still I had lost the impulse. I’m not much of a collector anyway. Hoarder maybe; collector, not so much. I kid. Mostly.

    And yes, Willow for sure. She’s not going to sit for weeks in a cell. First of all, she would die of dehydration, but also I’m pretty sure at one point she could teleport. Witch power in SPN is a bit confusing really; makes it hard to predict. Probably an asset for the show though. Lots of room for improvisation and less ‘let’s go to the supernatural rulebook/website to see how to defeat this thing’.

  69. Helena says:

    Goodness. Have just learned that the legendary SE Hinton is a HUGE Supernatural fan.

    Have to sit down now.

  70. evave2 says:

    Sheila, back to your explanation of the way Jensen has always been filmed as raw beauty and lit in such a way to show for gorgeous he is: I binge-watched with a friend this weekend and in Soul Survivor there is a scene in which Sam goes into Dean’s bedroom and just goes through some old photos of Dean.

    Most of them are Sam/Dean/John or Mom/Dad or Sam/Dean/Bobby. But in two (which are probably behind the scenes shots it’s just Sam and Dean. Dean is (in both) looking down and to the right with a slight smile (I would say coyly just because he looks like he’s got one of those secret smiles) and Sam is looking at HIM to the right and grinning (big smile).

    I don’t always know HOW they film things to SHOW what they are getting at, but this was one time I REALLY felt the force of “Dean as an object of beauty.” Because he was glowing.

  71. Lyrie says:

    Mutecyhper & Heather :
    I stopped reading the Buffy comics somewhere in the ninth season too. It felt all over the place and I just lost interest. I thought maybe it was because I’m not a comic books reader, but your comments made me reconsider. Maybe it’s just not very interesting?

    (How else could I be a creep? Why yes, I should answer a question that was not addressed to me, that’s an excellent idea, she though )
    (I should also write about myself in the third person.)

    About Claire almost raped except not really… That really pissed me of. As some of you said, we’ve seen this so many times, it has become boring. We know she’s going to be rescued (by a man, of course). Great way to make us not care at all about sexual assault! In my opinion, that’s precisely the kind of setup that desensitizes us.

    With Alex, it was subtle and disturbing, not only because it mirrors one of the male leads, but also because she was not just a helpless victim. She also committed terrible things. Her unhealthy upbringing had made her some kind of a monster, too. That’s horrible, and that’s also very true to life where people rarely are just one thing or the other, helpless victim or inhumane monster.

    In the past, Supernatural has used clichés with such brilliant twists. Take for instance the supernatural pregnancy: we’ve seen this a bazillion times. Boring, and usually sexist. But the Amazons? They’re no victims. Women, and even children? Certainly not innocent. But because they grow up and live in a group that is portrayed as a cult, they’re not just evil bitches who trick the men either. It’s more complicated than that. I, personally want to believe that Dean’s daughter was at least partially sincere when she said she wanted out. It was heartbreaking to see Dean hesitate. Now, that’s an interesting situation, with interesting characters and it plays with our expectations. That’s the way to use stupid clichés.

  72. Natalie says:

    Sheila – thanks for reminding me about Short Term 12. I meant to see it when it came out, but I don’t think it was released in my neck of the woods. But it’s on netflix now, so I was finally able to watch it. The filmmakers did their homework – the group home was incredibly realistic. The kids reminded me a lot of some of my kids, and I loved that they didn’t sugarcoat the behavior. They really captured how challenging it can be to work with that population, without losing sight of the fact that they’re still just kids. Difficult, angry, sometimes out of control kids, but still just kids who still need love and security, even though they don’t always seem lovable.

    The advice that Grace gave Nate at the beginning, by the way – to say no at first, until the kids stopped testing – was almost word for word the best advice that I got when I started that job. (Also, the “underprivileged kids” comment? So cringe-worthy, and so believable – as was Marcus’ response. A residential facility for kids was my first job out of college, and I was in so far over my head when I started. My first or second day, an adorable little 7-year-old boy asked me for a hug. I was all flattered and happy that he was connecting with me already, and I said yes and gave him a hug, and one of the other staff members pulled me aside to tell me that this kid is working on learning appropriate boundaries because he was sexually abused for years, and he’s not supposed to ask for hugs from strangers. Nothing in college prepared me for that.)

    • sheila says:

      Natalie – I am so glad you got a chance to see it! I thought it was superb.

      That is so tragic about the little boy hugging you. The whole thing about boundaries … I thought the film also tackled that really well. And the fact that it was college-age kids (like yourself) who were on the front lines – My brother worked in a group home for adults after college, and the stuff that the staff had had to handle!!

      Keith Stanfield, who was so wonderful in it, is also terrific in Selma – and it’s a completely different kind of part. I wasn’t sure if what he did in Short Term 12 was just capturing his true personality – or if he had created a character – the movie feels so improvisational I wasn’t sure. – after seeing Selma, I realize that he’s a hell of an actor. He has great range. He was at Ebertfest – I got to meet him. His character just killed me!

  73. Natalie says:

    Keith Stanfield was awesome in that part – how cool that you got to meet him! Judging by his Wikipedia entry, he’s got quite a career ahead of him. He reminded me sooo much of a couple of the kids that I worked with – and falling apart as his discharge date approached was something I saw all the time. Really, all the kids brought a couple names to my mind of kids they reminded me of. I worked with Jaydens and Sammys and Luises too. They really captured the group dynamics as well.

    My one criticism of the movie was that the staff’s personal issues were a little heavy-handed. Not saying that nobody who goes into that kind of work has a history of abuse or being in the foster care system, but in my experience, it was rare, and those who did generally didn’t last long unless they had a REALLY good handle on their pasts. Ante was actually the most believable staff character in that regard – most of the people I worked with came from relatively privileged backgrounds. I get that Grace’s father being released from prison was a trigger, but with personal unresolved issues to that degree, it’s surprising that she wasn’t over-identifying with the kids all over the place the way she did with Jayden, and that she actually made it into a supervisory role.

    I will also say that, generally, the front line staff where I worked got a little more respect than they did in the movie. Maybe I was just lucky with where I worked, but the therapists and management did recognize that we were the ones who knew these kids best since we spent 40+ hours a week with them, and our opinions were sought and taken seriously. We didn’t necessarily have the final say, but nothing happened without discussion.

    That hug had a huge impact on me. It was almost 14 years ago, and I still think about it. It had never occurred to me before that hugging a kid could be a bad thing. The staff who talked to me said it was fine that I’d hugged him this time, but over the next few weeks if he asked me again, I should tell him that we didn’t know each other well enough yet to hug.

    Your brother has my respect for sure! At least with kids I had the tactical advantage that most of them were smaller than me. I don’t know if I would have done well working with adults when I had that little experience! (The movie also captured the physical aspects of the job well – I definitely still have some physical reminders in my back and knees from doing that work!)

    • sheila says:

      // falling apart as his discharge date approached was something I saw all the time. // Yes, that was so nerve-wracking. And then to hear he was working at a Starbucks and going out with someone (if I recall, it’s been a while) … of such small details are huge triumphs made!!

      In person, he is far more like the character he played in Short Term 12 – saying “fuck” every other word and stuff – (“I’m just so fucking psyched to be here, man,” was the first thing he said to me – ha!!) – with lounge-y body language and inappropriate jokes. (But funny too. Nothing bad.) And in Selma, he is serious-eyed, conservative-looking, and extremely vulnerable – he looks so different I actually didn’t know it was him at first. The look in his EYES is different. Super impressed with him.

      I had mixed feelings, too, about the issues of the staff – although I think I thought they were more sensitively handled than you did. It could have been sentimentalized like: In Healing the Kids ….. She Heals Herself. … And maybe there was a bit of that going on. But the acting of the two leads – Brie Larson and John Gallagher Jr. was so understated and sympathetic it didn’t feel as manipulative as it might have.

      // it’s surprising that she wasn’t over-identifying with the kids all over the place the way she did with Jayden, and that she actually made it into a supervisory role. //

      I imagine that it is HUGELY challenging to not over-identify – for anyone in that position, regardless of your background. How to care for the kids, but keep yourself distant from them. To not project yourself and your own needs onto them.

      My brother had harrowing stories of having to restrain a violent adult – and they all got trained in how to do that without hurting the person. In general, these people were not violent – just troubled, and in recovery, all messed up … but there were some hairy moments.

  74. Natalie says:

    //But the acting of the two leads – Brie Larson and John Gallagher Jr. was so understated and sympathetic it didn’t feel as manipulative as it might have//

    I agree with you there – it was more of a story issue from my perspective than a performance issue.

    It is definitely a challenge not to get over-involved, and it requires a great deal of self-awareness.

    I had to go through the safe restraint and de-escalation training, too. (If you saw me now, you might not believe that I had ever singlehandedly taken kids – a couple of whom WERE bigger than me, and even the little ones could be surprisingly strong when the adrenaline got pumping – down to the floor. You’d never know I was such a badass to look at me, lol.) The ones who were most troubled and hardest to work with were actually the ones you would end up bonding with the most, because they needed so much intervention, and you had to go really deep to get to the bottom of what was going on with them.

    “Ante” in my comment above is supposed to be Nate. Stupid auto-correct.

  75. Lyrie says:

    I just wanted to wish you all, Sheila and awesome Supernatural fans, happy holidays. I’m so glad Helena encouraged me to grow as an artist. Thanks to her I was able to nurture my incredible talent to make this very beautiful and tasteful Christmas card. I hope you’ll appreciate it.

    Happy holidays!

  76. mutecypher says:

    Lyrie –

    What a sweet Christmas card! Merry Christmas to everyone also!

  77. Heather says:

    Yes, Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays, to all!

    Lyrie, cheers to you for the card. It is hard to make people laugh and cry at the same time, but you managed.

    I wish you all the very best of the season.

  78. May says:

    Lyrie — your card has brought a tear to my eye. Merry Christmas everyone!

  79. Michelle says:

    Merry Christmas everybody!! Wonderful card Lyrie!! It’s beauty will haunt me all day.

  80. Devin says:

    I believe at the end Dean said, “I didn’t mean to do it.”

  81. Devin says:

    There was sunlight coming through the window, so if it was Hell, that was a disconnect.

  82. Sheila says:

    The whole set is a “disconnect,” regardless of its alleged location.

  83. Lyrie says:

    (Sorry, really didn’t know where to post this, but I wanted to rejoice with you, guys!)

    Did you see? Supernatural has been picked up for an eleventh season! Wow. I hope they’ll still find great stories to tell. And my second thought was: I get to keep on talking with Sheila and friends for at least a year and a half? How lucky can a girl be? (Then I thought “I hope Castiel dies or gets better story lines”. )

    • sheila says:

      // I get to keep on talking with Sheila and friends for at least a year and a half? //

      Well, it looks like I will be doing re-caps until 2125 at this point, so if you all feel like hanging around until then … I’ll be typing away!

      // “I hope Castiel dies or gets better story lines” //

      Ha.

      anyway, yeah, good, if insane news. They’re gonna be chasing monsters with their walkers eventually. Popping Viagra.

  84. Pat says:

    I read some speculation that Rowena’s witch powers will likely be utilized to help rid Dean of the Mark of Cain. I can see this as a possibility and would give her a purpose this season, other than fixing her issues with Crowley.

  85. Lyrie says:

    // They’re gonna be chasing monsters with their walkers eventually. Popping Viagra. //
    That’s pretty much the comment Misha Collins made on twitter. :)

  86. mutecypher says:

    More Supernatural! Yeah baby!

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