Below, I posted a brief comment about the pilgrimage which has resulted in 244 deaths, because of trampling, due to the grace of Allah.
But then I just read this piece on Oxblog by Patrick Belton.
Patrick points out one of the things that is missing from the chatter about the trampled pilgrims, one very important thing.
Update: Mr. Reynolds weighs in on this whole thing:
There's no question that the more fanatical Islamofascist ideologues -- and a huge number, perhaps a majority, of Palestinians -- are in the grip of something that might reasonably be called a "death cult," with its worship of suicide-bomb martyrdom as an end in itself. But I don't think that's what's going on here, and I think it's a mistake to paint with too broad a brush.What's going on here seems to be classic Arab-regime ineptitude, glossed over with a convenient fatalism...Disney could solve this problem in its sleep. That the Saudis aren't up to Disney's standards, and use lame fatalistic theology as an excuse, isn't evidence of death-cultism so much as arrogance and ineptitude.
I am in agreement on this. It's the ineptitude of Arab officials who never want to admit that they don't know something (like simple elements of crowd control).
Update: Mindles H. Dreck has another point of view. And the beat goes on ...
I don't mean to just sit on the fence here - but at least on this particular issue (the trampled pilgrims, and the mullah's speech) I can see the validity of the different sides.
Posted by sheilaFor what it's worth, Little Green Footballs takes an alternate view of the speech Patrick Belton mentioned. LGF took pains to point out that he didn't mention attacks on non-Muslims in non-Muslim lands, and further argued that another term for "non-Muslims given sanctuary in Muslim lands" is dhimmitude, describing it more or less as "Jim Crow status."
That said, I thought there were parts of the speech that had less wiggle room, and--even giving full credit to the LGF viewpoint--overall I would be inclined to call it progress...if not much progress.
Posted by: Ken Hall at February 2, 2004 06:41 PMWhile I like Little Green Footballs sometimes, and while it was essential reading for me in the year after September 11 - I find the viewpoint of a lot of the commenters over there frightening.
I do prefer to be able to recognize progress as progress, even if it is just a tiny baby step.
Posted by: red at February 2, 2004 07:53 PMThere is no room for non-muslims who don't convert in Islam. It is the one fact that is consistent in the many different interpretations of the Quran. Non-muslims are to be treated as lesser beings or killed. It has been written and taught over and over. The "liberal" or "progressive" muslims that appear to be integrated into modern society are considered to have gone astray and in need of correction. All muslims in western society are instructed by their clerics to not speak of these laws to non-muslims as the the Ultimate Goal of Islam is world domination. Our American tendency towards tolerance and political correctness will be our undoing.
Posted by: Jim at February 2, 2004 08:20 PMThere is no room for non-muslims who don't convert in Islam.
Utterly incorrect, totally false, and absolutlely not what the Koran says.
It is the one fact that is consistent in the many different interpretations of the Quran.
An utterly incorrect, specious statement.
Non-muslims are to be treated as lesser beings or killed.
Wrong, misinformed.
The "liberal" or "progressive" muslims that appear to be integrated into modern society are considered to have gone astray and in need of correction.
By whom? Their fellow Muslims? Which ones? "The majority?" Says who?
All muslims in western society are instructed by their clerics to not speak of these laws to non-muslims as the the Ultimate Goal of Islam is world domination.
Them and the Masons, right? Are there secret handshakes involved?
Do you actually know any Muslims? Have you ever read any of the books written by Muslims in defense of their faiths? Any histories of Islam by non-Muslims who take a critical eye to it, while being neither worshipful nor condemning of it?
Or do the moonbats at LGF and whatever some hard-line Christian groups have to say define your entire outlook?
Our American tendency towards tolerance and political correctness will be our undoing.
For 225 years we have stood with such principles. I'm not willing to just shitcan them because some paranoids who've never even read the Koran, who think picking out a random Sura and an article or two from the paper, makes them experts.
Posted by: Dean Esmay at February 3, 2004 02:59 AMDean -
I don't know if you're familiar with my cast of characters over here (people who regularly read me) - but Jim is a regular reader, an intelligent person, and not a LGF freak.
Just had to throw my two cents in because of the tone of your comment.
I am very glad that I went over to Oxblog yesterday - I, too, don't read it enough. Those guys are terrific, all of them.
Posted by: red at February 3, 2004 08:19 AMThank You Sheila, as always, you are a gracious hostess.
Dean,
If you did a little more research... Just as I was right about the jobless recovery I am also right about this. I do exhaustive research and if you told me my mother loved me I would check it out.
I can't dig out the urls (links) for you right now because I'm working four jobs to makeup for the one I had pre-offshore outsourcing and need to get moving. When I get time I will compile the list for you as anyone with your thirst for truth should have those resources available. They are all from Islamic websites and you might want to go to Anonymizer before you visit some of them.
Yes, I know and talk to muslims. I probably have more access to them than you do and have had over a longer period of time. Now that I'm out of the conference room and back in the street I'm sure I'll have more contact than I ever did.
You could start your education by becoming familiar with the Pact of Umar.
Sheila, if this is a hassle here we can take this elsewhere.
Posted by: Jim at February 3, 2004 02:30 PMJim -
It's not a hassle - at least not yet.
I'm like a mother-lion over her cubs though when it comes to my regulars - and Dean's a regular, too!
So if you two want to fight this out, go ahead. A lot of people in the blog-world are fighting about this today.
Posted by: red at February 3, 2004 02:32 PMI think the truth is in between Jim and Dean's views.
While there a whole bunch of Muslim extremists that are much like Jim described, there are just as many that are not nearly as fanatical about their religion, and wish the extremists would sit down and shut up.
I liken the people we might call "progressive" Muslims as Muslims who use their religion to better themselves, but not necessarily conquer the world. I would compare them to many Catholics (such as myself), who still use religion in their daily lives but do not go to organized Catholic gathers, who think for themselves and do not blindly follow Catholic leaders and lastly who do not believe what is said by The Pope is the last word.
Maybe I'm naive, but there are usually more people in the middle of most groups than both of the extreme edges put together.
Those are the people we need to appeal to get the group as a whole to change, right?
Posted by: Easycure at February 3, 2004 02:47 PMI'd point out that while your analogy has some validity, Easycure, it's also far from perfect. For you to consider yourself Catholic or for me to consider myself Jewish, yet not be actively involved in some of the more regimented aspects of our respective faiths might be cause for sneering derision from some people, but it's not like it requires the same level of real courage as being an openly "progressive" (for lack of a better term) Muslim. For someone like, for example, Irshad Manji to call for reinterpretation of Islam is to put her neck on the line, and while that may not really be something inherent to Islam as such, it certainly says something about the current state of Islam as being fundamentally different from the rest of the world's religions.
Posted by: Dave J at February 3, 2004 06:22 PMThis is such a good post & I enjoy reading you Red. I came by way of Dean's World.
I entered my thoughts there & just want a better understanding of the Muslims. It is important to me to be enlightened & I want to know where they stand in protecting & defending America without getting them upset for asking.
Thanks
Posted by: Janelle at February 4, 2004 04:31 PMJanelle-
Thank you for stopping by ... we're all on the same quest, I suppose!
Posted by: red at February 4, 2004 04:34 PM