The Sheila Variations

Oh, sure.. I have friends who go for the alpha-male types. Always, and they find these guys irresistable. And, inevitably, the qualities that are adored for three months quickly sour and I just wait for it..

...and wait for it. And then the phone call, the cup of coffee, the asking of questions and seeking of answers. Of course he won't listen to you, of course he isn't "sensitive" (what-ever the heck that means to anyone at any given point in time), of course he goes and does stuff without asking you first. of course he belittles your opinion, and of course he (usually) ignores your advice. oOf course he wants to control the little things you do that drive him nutty. Isn't that what made him attractive in the first place? Um, well... all I can do is shrug. And refer to tomes of Jung and Adler, and enjoy the day, still unable to unpuzzle the puzzle that is a woman, but loving you-all anyway.

Sheila -
I'm not sure Jane Austen would ever say "Jeez." "Sheesh," maybe.

P.S.Someday you must visit the Charlevoix region of Quebec (I love how they pronounce it Kebek). La Malbaie, specifically, on up to Baie St. Chatherine and the Saugunay River. Just got back, and I can't get it out of my head.

The most successful relationship I've ever had was with a true alpha. I can't describe it, but all I can say is I was totally able to RELAX with that guy. I could BREATHE.

I know the stereotype you describe, tonecluster, I've seen it around me, I know, I know - but in this case, I will resist being "lumped" in with it. It doesn't apply.

I mentioned Georgette Heyer novels on my site a few times. She is like THE romance writer - a woman who wrote good, gripping romances, most of them set in Jane Austen's period (Regency/early 1800s) although she was writing 1920-1960. And the appeal of them is probably just what you say - all her romantic heroines are attracted to men with strong wills, a la Darcy, and clearly there is this yearning for dominance/power/alpha stuff. But the thing is, the heroines themselves have very strong wills and the theme is that it's just no fun to be with someone who simply adores you and does whatever you ask; if you want an exciting life, you need some challenge & sparring. It's as if the greatest part of the pleasure is in the resistance. (Um, how's that for a sentence?)

Anne - good point. I missed that side of the whole thing, although I hinted at it with the Howard Hawks reference. Equal sparring partners was Howard Hawks' whole THING with the male-female dynamic.

If you're a strong personality (and woah, baby, I am) - oftentimes you need equal strength back, or you get bored.

I know there are also women who have strong personalities and just want to dominate their male - but not all women are alike.

Jesus, Red - post something that's been on the forefront of my mind for months at a time when I have no time to respond :-)

I don't see any contradiction between being a strong and independent woman and yearning for a strong and independent man. For me, it is the only way to go.

Let me see if I can distill it down to 9000 words or less: Sure, it may be chemistry, pheromones, Discover Channel stuff, but if you take a look at the data you'll see that the Mr. Darcys of the world treat women like crap. We've all seen it, either first hand or observing loved ones; most of us could probably say "been there, done that."

We tend to forget that, though. Rationalize it away. If our political memories are short, our romantic memories are even shorter. That chemistry buzz hits and WHAM! The memories of the last person that we had great chemistry with but who treated us like crap vanishes.

In short, Chemistry tends to trump Reason. The question is: should it? Sure, as a strong and independent woman, yearning for a strong and independent man may be the only way to go. But what if "strong and independent" also comes with "and treats people like crap?" In my experience both as a participant and an observer in the game of love, I find those two usually go hand in hand.

I don't think you're alone in the "it is the only way to go" idea. Hell, I've gotten into more trouble as a result of chemistry than I care to admit. But reason has to be a component. Mr. Darcy might cause all the girls to swoon, but at some point he has too be seen for who he is. And it is my opinion that that point should come sooner (like, when your friends are trying to wave you off) than later.

Perhaps I'm just bitter. I carry that "nice guy" gene that always loses out to the cads of the world :-)

Mr. Z, like I said in my post - I COMPLETELY get the complaint of men.

Completely.

But to me, alpha doesn't mean "asshole" or "cruel" or "distant". It's the opposite (at least from the guys I've known, and who I'm attracted to). I'm not attracted to many people. I'm certainly not attracted to distant aloof guys - never have been. (Member the blurp conversation?)

To me, alpha means something else, perhaps.

The nicest guy I ever met was an alpha. So maybe we need to define our terms. :)

I don't think I'm saying what you think I'm saying, Mr. Z. Like I said - I probably need to go back and edit it.

I hate the term "alpha" anyway - but I don't know what else to call it. "Alpha" now reminds me of Al Gore wearing earth tones, and it's not quite the image I'm looking for.

My experience is that "sensitive" people are mostly sensitive about their own emotions, which leaves them little room for understanding the emotions of other people. Often, they simulate such understanding with "feel your pain" language...but it usually seems about as real as one of those artificial-intelligence programs that simulates a therapist.

David -

Okay, so your comment has given me a bit of clarity towards what I am DESPERATELY TRYING (arrrgh) to say.

A couple days ago, I wrote about the feeling of love I got, watching my parents hang my curtains. I felt that love is not what you SAY, it is all in what you DO.

My relationship with the alpha guy was all about the DOING. I don't think he ever said, "I love you" ... but I never doubted the feelings. He wasn't exactly sensitive - he could be gruff, impatient - if he thought I was over-reacting to something, or being insane, he would say point-blank, "I think you are completely being insane." He didn't obsess, or try to understand ... His whole attitude was: "Whatever you're going through right now is YOUR thing. Not mine." I found that unbelievably refreshing.

Also - member the story I told earlier this week about the guy I slapped?

I got the impression that I was not REAL to him, that what he saw instead was an amorphous symbolic "woman" - all the women who had rejected him ... I happen to have a female body, so all that hostility came out at me.

Many of my girlfriends struggle with not treating ALL men like their asshole fathers, or that one asshole boyfriend who beat them, whatever ... they really must try to start anew each time. To not look at him through that filter from the past.

I don't know how this applies, but I think that it does.

One other thing. I think that the technical meaning of "alpha male" comes from the study of primates, and that the alpha male is the one who dominates the other males. So, a moody, gruff artist (for example), who tended to be a loner and had no interest getting himself into leadership positions, would *not* be an alpha male by this definition, regardless of how insistent he was about having his own way in things (devoting time to his art, for instance).

Any anthropoligists or zoologists like to comment on this?

No man is confident all the time. We may put on a face that says we are confident all the time but that is not the case.

OTOH, no man is arrogant all time either. What may seem arrogance is a matter of pre-occupation with some stressful situation. You know, that kind of thing.

Are there men who are consistently unconfident? Yes. Are there men who are consistently arrogant? Yes.

(Abusive control freaks and other men or women with serious personality disorders are a class unto themselves, so you have to set those aside)

So men are somewhere in the range between milquetoast to alpha-wolf bad boy.

What it takes is some control of one's expectations and some curiousity about the person that goes beyond "attraction".

Not to mention some people's radar for attractiveness is seriously whacked. I am not talking about what our mind recognizes as culturally attractive. I am talking about an individual's soul level reaction to another.

Well, most certainly some people are attracted to their own destruction. Most certainly.

I was not thinking of quite that extreme, but more my own case. I can not entirely trust mine.

I oftened wondered if that was love at first sight. Where a person with a good sense of attaction and who can trust it completely meets someone with the same.

I immediately think of my "doppelganger" story - I posted it a while back.

What you describe is what that night felt like to me.

Although the discussion of this issue has made the assumption that women are in fact attracted to the Darcy types, I seem to recall that in the novel all the women, Elizabeth included, detest Darcy and adore Wickham. It is only after Wickham has revealed his worthlessness, and only after Darcy softens his personality, pays off Wickham's debts, and forces him to marry Lydia, that Elizabeth is able to love him.

Austen's point appears to be that Darcy's virtue is real, but it is a savage virtue that does not care to appear pleasing. I would also claim that Austen holds out considerable hope for their happiness, but only because Darcy has been educated out of his pride and Elizabeth out of her prejudice.

On a side note: I dislike having it be ASSUMED that OBVIOUSLY I don't know what I want...because no woman does, right? I'm not talking to any of you all specifically, I'm really just talking about my own hesitancy in even posting this thing, because I anticipated perhaps the response I'm getting. The response to me saying "I like alphas".

You can ASSUME that I don't mean what I say, but that's a bit rude. Especially if you don't know me at all!

Again, it all comes back to that filter thing - which I have been thinking about a lot lately (especially after slapping that asshole):

Can you actually deal with who is front of you, or are you bringing along a filter from the past?

Can you look at someone and allow them to be SPECIFIC, and perhaps SURPRISE you - or are your preconceived notions running the show?

Bryan - As I recall, yes. Both sides need to adjust and change. Or educated. Educated is probably a better word.

But is adjustment and changing possible? I wrote something recently on my own blog that starts to flesh out my thoughts on the matter, but which leans towards the conclusion of "no." I'd like to believe that is not the case but the data doesn't support the thesis. In literature, yes. But in the real world? Too many Bad Boys devouring great girls to satisfy their own selfish aims. Conversely, there are too many great girls that know that they are drawn to the Bad Boys, know it is self-destructive, and do it anyway.

Oh - and Bad Girls can do just as much damage. I'm the poster boy for that :-)

Red,

This is an interesting topic, and for what it is worth, both men and women are attracted to alpha-ness.

I am attracted to "strong" or "confident" women or how ever you want to coin it.

It more about our inability to describe alpha without getting into labels or being overly academic about its definition. It is much more...romantic than that isn't it?

j swift:

YES!!!

Ah, yes Mr. Z - but "bad boy" does not necessarily equal "alpha".

Maybe that's where we're getting into our trouble.

You know, it's funny - I wrote a long post about Austen a while back called The Marianne Problem (Marianne loving Willoughby - the typical Bad Boy) and we got into the same problem with defining our terms.

Mr. Z - where's the post you mention? I'd like to read it - but it looks like the link just goes to the main page.

Doh! I was rushing and didn't include the whole link. You can find it here.

I think to a large degree "bad boy" does equal "alpha." After all, the title of your post is "Mr. Darcy's Dark Alpha Charm - Hell yeah!" :-) I'd certainly call Mr. Darcy a "bad boy."

Maybe the problem is that all "bad boys" are alpha, but not all alphas are "bad boys." They're just the most visible class of alpha, and therefore more easy to identify. But I'd also argue that they are also the more numerous class of alpha.

I remember that thread - great stuff! Must go back and re-read it. I was swamped at work and never was able to respond.

Then I am afraid that the only way to describe alpha is with a poem.

I don't know if I'd call Mr. Darcy a "bad boy". I'd call him difficult, and I'd call him ... well, there's something free and unyielding in his spirit. Which can be EXTREMELY annoying to a certain type of woman. He's got some lessons to learn - but I wouldn't call him a "bad boy". He's not a Willoughby, who is the classic lying smooth bad boy. The ruin of many women.

I can see that all of these words mean different things to different people.

I'm laughing. We need a translator!!

To me, the epitome of alpha is a guy who never lies, who does what he says he's gonna do, who would kick the ass of anyone who fucked with me, and who knows who he is. That's basically it.

Bad boys lie. Alphas never do.

But I can see this may be "lost in translation".

And that's cool. This is what I guess is meant by defining terms.

Red, if anyone ever got close to figuring out this problem, every poet, author, painter, songwriter , philosopher, and greeting-card copywriter would be instantly out of a job :-)

Excellent point there, Mr. Z.

So, Harrison Ford, in other words?

Linus - Heh heh. Yes. I am waiting for Harrison to drop Calista and come to me. I've been waiting for that since Empire Strikes Back first hit the theatres! No, just kidding.

I'm really just thinking about the types of guys in my life I've felt truly relaxed with, truly myself with. (And there haven't been many.) They're usually ... er ... the type I keep TRYING to describe here.

Hey, I kicked some guy's ass today just because he talked about some other girl named Sheila.

Huh. I really like topic and the chat that comes with it. Erm, to something that Mr.Z posted, questioning whether or not change or adjustment or "educating" is possible in the real world; I think that it can be. You see it a lot in fictious terms via literature and what-not (go ahead and make fun of my vocabulary), because they generally deal with big things, like love and fear. Love and fear are the basic catalysts for change, adjustment and GROWTH, because thats usually what you're doing. Well, let's hope. I do think that things like love and fear can do things to you, mix around your insides and change how you act, and are, to adjust. And maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part. Hope this is relevant...

I couldn't go to your page, Mr.Z, and I want to but my computer is kind of a, well, douche (someone catch that please). This is my first post as an observer of your page, if you were wondering who this is. And I'm sweaty.

I think the point that all bad boys are alpha males but NOT all alpha males are bad boys is an important point.

I can't stand "bad boys" - maybe it's because I'm getting old, but when someone says "I'll call you" and he only does at times he knows are inconvenient for me, or when he only ever wants to do specifically what he wants to do, down to the choice of movie, or when he's chronically late, or a chronic date-canceller, or someone for whom anger is a problem - I think "I don't need to be with him. Life is too short."

Alpha males, though, yeah, I can see that. I once said I was looking for a man with both a heart and a backbone, and those two in proper balance.

I guess what I'm saying is I'm looking for someone who won't shut me out or scream at me when I'm upset over something genuinely upsetting (like, a close relative dying) but who will call me on the carpet a bit when I get whiny about stupid stuff. I don't want someone who will enable the worse parts of my personality, and I've found some of the SNAGs (Sensitive New-Age Guys) do just that.

I know what I want. The problem is, detecting the proper characteristics in a guy and not shutting him out too fast for minor flaws (which I am prone to doing) or being swayed by some charming characteristic that covers up something else not-so-good.

DBW - Wish you could have kicked the ass of that dipshit in the banned books thread. ha

Isn't it just ultimately about being yourself and being with someone who is himself? I take it that's why you can relax with an alpha, because with him you can be, well, you; because you both know who you are you are both confident enough in yourselves to be confident in each other. And all the sexiness that goes with it.

Nothing worse than being involved with someone who hasn't figured out who they are yet and uses the relationship to assume your identity. Nothing more thrilling than someone who knows who they are and loves you for who you are. Room to clash and room to grow.

Sorry I'm just getting here now, but Darcy and I spent the past few days shooting some covies at Netherfield. Did I miss anything?

best regards

A lot of strong, independent women also have this secret "own me" desire, which may just be social biology -- but what a duality.

I still hold as true, since high school, the generalization that women dig jerks. Arrogant certainly qualifies.

But wasn't there a poll once that had Alan Alda and/or Phil Donahue at the top of desirable men? Maybe that was the product of "I'll tell you what you want to hear, what you expect women to say."

but the result is:
"Ride me, big .... Sheldon."

If I had to choose a dream fictional character as a mate, I wouldn't play it safe, I'd take someone from Tennessee Williams.

I'm sick of defending myself against generalizations, Dano. To you, women like jerks. Maybe that's true for some women.

As I've said 10 times in this thread, to me "alpha" doesn't mean jerk. It means something else. I do not have a long string of assholes behind me. That's not my deal.

I can't stand Alan Alda.

"Ride me, big .... Sheldon."

Tangential, of course, but while it's categorized as a "chick flick" and I otherwise hate romantic comedies, I'll admit to a fondness for When Harry Met Sally, the source of this line.

Sally, sobbing: "And I'm gonna be forty!!!"

Harry, confused: "When?"

Sally: "Someday."

I have probably said the exact same thing at one low point in my life ... heh heh. It's a classic line. 40 looming up at the end of the tunnel ... even if you're only 29.

[hurts neck looking back over shoulder at 40]

This topic depresses me. Deeply. I think it's because of my eggs. Biological clock stuff. Eggs. Sadness. Eggs. Fear. Tick-tock, tick-tock.

I know I sound insane, but ... well, this particular topic makes me feel insane.

Forgive. Carry on.

And Mr. Bingley - you're over 40?? No WAY, as the kids say!

way.

i'll be 41 in january.

Well done, you.

I'm 28 and the prospect of 40 already freaks me out. But then, as we know, the definition of "old" increases as get older, and always somehow means "older than me." My grandfather's 87 and he probably doesn't think he's actually "old" either...although he's somewhat senile and seems to think with increasing frequency that it's 1933 and he's still the 16-year-old president of the Coney Island Motorcycle Club.

I love that story about your grandfather - wouldn't be so bad to go back in time to when you were 16 and heading up such a damn cool organization as that!!

I feel like I'm 15 half the time. But ...

it's those dern eggs that keep reminding me.

eggs eggs eggs eggs

I won't sleep tonight. Dumb.

Oh and another thing you said Dano made me think of something:

It doesn't surprise me that many women who may have a very large dominant side also have an "own me" side. I know that I can be very dominant. Not in a bossy way, but - just in life. I have to be. Actress, writer, etc. I can't be passive. I have to be strong, and pushy, and relentless, just in order to get SEEN sometimes. So the thought of coming home and being able to give all that up and let someone else take charge is quite attractive. Very relaxing. It gives me quite a good balance.

Like I said before - my best relationship ever was with a guy like that. It worked out quite well.

I had a friend who was a dominatrix, by trade. She was married. She would kick men around for her job, and then come and be a happy little almost-passive homemaker. And her husband was an awesome guy, by the way. A big kind alpha dude who knew who he was.

It made perfect sense to me.

I saw a picture of him at that age, leather jacket and all, fairly recently. It's very strange seeing people you've known as much older than you your whole life aged younger than you are now. You'll like this: he looked like a cross between James Dean and Clark Gable, except shorter. Now he looks like Colonel Sanders, sounds like Ed McMahon and acts like Grandpa Simpson.