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These people do not understand the show. Sam and Dean were ALWAYS normal.
so are they saying that Sam and Dean never got SICK before? Never TRIPPED? Never got a cavity before? That they were living charmed protected lives before …. yesterday?
This episode has removed their competence. They can’t pick locks anymore. So their COMPETENCE in all 14 seasons before this is because they were “protected” by God, as opposed to just being competent and good at what they do?
If Dabb thinks a thing not being explicitly shown/mentioned onscreen means it never happened in-universe at all…that may explain a few things. Like this team’s approach to subplots.
While watching the show last night, there were moments that I laughed, amused at the situation that had been set up for me, but, overall, I was deeply upset at the theme of the episode. I refuse to believe that the Winchesters, simply because they are heroes, are not “normal.” This show has not been a comic book or a YA fantasy; it was firmly set in gritty reality. Dean worked on his car because the Impala needed maintenance – like we all deal with. They got hangovers and threw up. They got cold and wet. They dealt with cheap hotels and uncomfortable beds; that’s why Dean loved his memory foam so much. They brushed their teeth and gargled. They were completely normal.
The one who struggled with the realities of being human was Castiel: at the beginning of season 9, he marveled at the inconvenience of bodily elimination and squeezed toothpaste directly into his mouth because he didn’t know what human life was like.
Sam and Dean ARE heroes, but not because they moved through life untouched by petty annoyances but in spite of that. They trained so they would be agile; they cleaned their guns so they would be in good working order. What they experienced during this episode was not normal; it was all sorts of issues hitting all at once – that is NOT normal. I would like to believe that this is Chuck messing with them, but I feel like the writers are deliberately and purposefully destroying what this show was about. I’m really, really frustrated at this.
Nope. Not even going to try. Writers fucked up. End of story.
If Chuck ISN’T messing with them, then that was just the most spiteful hour of TV I’ve ever seen. Disgusting.
I don’t understand. They could have just said Sam and Dean were cursed and done the same episode. But normal? They’ve always been normal! That’s the point! They’re not superheroes. They were always poor and homeless and struggling. But now Sam sneezes and they think something is up??
Remember when Cass felt useless because he lost his powers, and Dean told him “I’ve never had powers.” And yet somehow he was still able to pick locks and fight and try to fix his car, instead of just leaving it there.
On the bright side, Garth managed to survive this one, unlike every other character who’s been brought back this season just to die (rip Becky).
– On the bright side, Garth managed to survive this one,
Garth/DJ Qualls was definitely the silver lining.
Yes! Well said.
I thought nothing would shock me after Season 12. But this … shocked me.
I did love the tap dance though. But it also made me sad because the show used to be that silly and creative on the regular.
I’m really shocked. They think Sam and Dean aren’t real people. They think Sam and Dean don’t get cavities and colds.
I really have nothing else to say. Just shocking.
I’m with Fortune, it would have been a fun episode if they had simply been cursed. I liked Tom Cruise getting beaten up in the intro, and the dancing was fun. And I liked Bess digging her nails into her cousin’s wound to get him to talk. And the Sam-n-Castiel twins.
But, they had to hustle at pool and who knows what other skeezy things prior to Charlie’s Magic Credit Card. Dean rebuilt Baby. Sam worked as a motel maintenance guy. Did that happen in the seasons that were all just a dream? Is the entire series the fabrication of some autistic kid staring at a Chevy Impala in a snow globe? Or is this Pamela Barnes/Ewing’s dream?
Yuck.
And today is Dean Winchester’s 41st birthday,. It was funny having Garth say he expected to follow the normal hunter’s path of being dead (for at least a year) by Dean’s age. And Dean shouldn’t have any milkshakes today, not until he gets that lactose intolerance fixed.
This is a personal slight at me for bitching about all the times they said they were heroes.
Hi, I’ll try to keep it short, but a quick introduction would be appropriate as a first time poster, I think. I also came to Supernatural late, I don’t even remember what got me watching that first episode, but boy, was I hooked quick. I binged the seasons until I was caught up with the show around season ehm… 11 or 12, and watched weekly ever since. What got me (unsurprisingly to most here I think) was the relationship between the brothers, and yes, Jensen Ackles’ acting in all the big scenes and small moments.
Sometime early last year I came across your piece on Jensen Ackles: “Breaking down the schtick” and from there your epside re-caps. Oh my goodness your re-caps. As someone said here before “I watch the show like a cat watching a dryer”, yea, that’d be me as well. However, I was fascinated by the detailed re-caps and went through all of them with the episodes playing alongside and I want to thank you so much for the new insights.
Unfortunately that also accentuated the difference between the show then and the show now. I’ve been following comments here for a while now, and more than once someone here put words to what exactly it was that was bothering me, or what felt lacking, better than I could have.
For the first time, though, I feel I might have something to add to the conversation that’s not already been said better by someone else. And to my own surprise it’s almost (almost) in defense of “them over there”.
I don’t think they were trying to imply Sam and Dean were superhuman or protected by God, or anything along those lines. I think the message they were trying to convey was that normally when reading a story or watching a movie, you don’t see the hero having to deal with “normal” things. It’s pretty likely someone like Frodo or Sam would’ve caught a cold on their long road to Mount Doom, but that sort of thing wouldn’t be mentioned unless it played into the story. You wouldn’t see John Wick sit in the waiting room for a boring dentist check-up inbetween action scenes.
I.e. the normal day to day stuff you rarely read or see heroes do / deal with. And apparantly God no longer considers them the heroes of the story (?), causing them to suddenly have to deal with such “normal” things (or perhaps more accurately: show them to us, the viewers, where they otherwise would not).
That, I think, is what they were going for.
Your competence comment, however, absolutely still stands. Their ability to pick a lock does not fall into this category.
Wiith that said, I also have to say I really disliked the episode. I’m assuming this was supposed to be the quirky, funny episode but man, did it fall flat for me.
Oh well, so much for short, sorry about that :)
Thank you all for your continued discussions here, and especially you, Sheila, for your other writings.
Sureth
It’s nice to meet you Sureth! For whatever reason, there seems to be a type of person incapable of watching the show casually and it’s always neat to see the tribe expand :D
I think it’s a good point, trying to figure out what exactly was being intended and/or implied here. Garth’s explanation about superheroes (of COURSE superheroes are the go-to for this team) could mean either “Batman doesn’t get flat tyres because he’s a Hero” or “Batman doesn’t get flat tyres because we don’t see him get flat tyres.”*
The first, obvious read for me was that Dabb was saying “everything they have ever been is because of the ‘hero boost’ and now, with that taken away, they are weak and subject to petty ills.” Which is a wretched spiteful little jab at the show, underneath a comedy mask.
A second option is that ?Chuck has cursed them with bad luck (or something equivalent) — or perhaps, as you say, that they are the same, but Chuck has changed their narrative status and they are subjected to everyday indignities for the first time in our window on them.
Because the first read so rudely makes a mockery of the show and its characters, I feel like this had to be more what Dabb was going for. But if that’s the case, as Fortune says, why didn’t Sam and Dean treat their bad luck/indignities more in the way they did in Bad Day at Black Rock? Their shocked reactions at being “normals” — they’ve never had colds, cavities, parking tickets, mechanical failures, punches that don’t work — they’ve never tripped before — are so strident that it undermines a kinder interpretation, pushes it into the first one, and contradicts canon to boot!
And yet, at the end of the episode, they head off to a place that can fix their luck, not reinstate them as Heroes. So it is a curse, then? So…..I have no idea, ultimately, am probably wrong about everything, and the whole thing is exceedingly offputting. Hope this doesn’t read like I’m having a go — you don’t have to answer my whys and wherefores! Just building off of your comment because the whole thing felt so wrong I’m still puzzled by it! Hope we keep seeing you around. And if anyone can help make sense of it I’m begging you to raise your hand.
I agree with you that a lot of the humour fell flat, especially the deeper we got into the the episode. A fair bit of the “funny stuff” irritated me, but there were also quite a few moments when I found myself smiling at Jensen’s antics in particular (although “Big Sam’s okay” while he was writhing around on the floor got me too — although Garth’s apparently psychotic wife and daughter laughing at him was a headscratcher). Trying to pronounce ‘cursed’, food behaviour (more food behaviour). Those antics — they did feel, in this context, where I struggled to recognise Dean, very much “Jensen is clowning because there’s nothing else going on.”
In the sparest possible terms, I could do without the monster cage fights and monster dark web.
*It’s another example of things getting messy with just who is writing and viewing here. I feel like this messiness became apparent in the last episode of last season. Chuck misses his show as a viewer, so he’s writing it, and wrote the vamp ending, but also is writing endings (or wants endings) where his favourite characters kill each other (perhaps confirmed by Sam this episode, and far be it from me to kink shame God) but he’s also, perhaps, always been a writer and writing them as Heroes, or maybe not, and it’s just that we, the spectral viewer, who is also God (a fan-writer), have always seen them as Heroes (because that’s how Dabb thinks we see them), and now we’re viewing something else, and fans are transformative fans because God and Becky are weenie fic-writers, but also God is the writing team in opposition to fans, and we are in opposition to the writing team, because what we see is all we’re getting. This is nonsense and trying to make it meaningful will probably pad the publication resumes of a fan studies scholar or two down the track.
No perceived goes being had, don’t worry. The reason I’ve been following the discussions here, is that I really enjoy everyone here arguing their viewpoints, discussing ideas and just sharing their thoughts on the show.
I’m also definately puzzled and confused still, and am thinking too much about this episode, trying to make some sense of it. (And I have to say your last paragraph is making my head spin!)
Gosh, I’ve written and deleted at least 4 attempts to reason through some of this. But I mostly end up repeating what’s already been said. The only conclusion is indeed: I don’t know, I’m probably completely wrong.
I just know I’m staring at the main contradiction of the episode: “we’re normal” vs “let’s go fix our luck”.
And I know I’m staring at some of the options with dread that one of those might be the one they went with.
it makes my head spin too! I’d kill for someone to make sense of this whole thing for me. Maybe it will click into place at the end of the season.
the main contradiction of the episode: “we’re normal” vs “let’s go fix our luck”.
Yes. It’s still ambiguous as to whether it really is meant to be bad luck. Even worse, it’s very unpleasant that the show makes Sam and Dean themselves say that having cavities and butterfingers, having the car break down, not being able to pick locks or punch a guy and knock him out, has reduced them to normal non-heroes. It’s them saying it, it’s their own understanding of themselves, that it’s so inconceivably bonkers and a warning sign that they trip coming up the stairs. It’s gross (and contradictory of course with canon) and in that sense doesn’t matter whether Chuck has removed a boon and/or added bad luck to bring them to the place they are here.
Dabb seemed worried that the episode might imply that normal is bad, and so threw in an exchange to cover his ass there (normal’s not bad, except when you’re dealing with heroic things like us!) without realising that the entirety of it ended up mocking the characters, and us as well. I wish that the episode had pushed their bad luck further, to make it clear that they were brought low (BDABR had all that delightful rube goldberg compounding bad luck, but this team doesn’t have the imagination I guess) and needed to somehow get back to normal.
Not only trying to be evocative of Bad Day At Black Rock; seeing a compromised Dean talking about weapons by the boot of the Impala outside a large industrial building felt like it was a callback to Yellow Fever. What a vast difference a decade makes (and a writing partner).
I’m so glad I’m not the only one who came away from the episode utterly irritated instead of amused. Irritated might be a wee bit mild. When my husband and I were discussing the episode I told him “Andrew Dabb just basically shoved his middle finger in the air and said F*** you Kripke.”. That is honestly what the episode felt like to me.
The sad thing is if they had presented it as Chuck really did curse them with horrible bad luck, then I would probably be writing about how the episode was a nice breath of fresh air in a season I haven’t been enjoying very much. While it wasn’t a hysterically funny episode there were some parts that made me chuckle. I’ve always enjoyed Garth and I enjoyed seeing him again. My favorite moment was when he told Dean he needed to get a colonoscopy.
DJ Qualls said in an interview this was his last appearance on the show and you could literally feel the emotion coming off them all when they said goodbye at the end
So I would have enjoyed the episode so much more, but the whole “normal” thing just soured it for me…..tying into the whole “hero” nonsense that Sam and Dean never considered themselves to be to begin with.
It was just so good to see Garth! His sincerity just rolls off of him! I was moved by all sorts of things, how much older he looks, his twins, that amazingly cast daughter, his overwhelming good will, at the end when they hugged I was almost in tears.
And the ep was so silly and fun. JP rolling around crying while assuring the infants that Big Sam was okay!
All these wonderful little things, but the whole concept of the episode was so so so wrong that I feel – idk? Confused? Betrayed? Just done? Resentful, because if this is our last moment with Garth, why does it have to be like this? Why does everything around it have to feel so insincere and uninvested when Garth is basically Sincerity’s avatar on Earth?
Anyway. Love you, Garth. Best wishes to you and your lovely family. Emotionally, I think it’s time for me to punch out.
(sorry, Michelle, for tacking this on here. I didn’t want to read further than I’ve watched in the comments.)
Very infrequent poster here but longtime lurker. Agree with frustration. Here’s my two cents. Yes, Sam and Dean are ‘normal’ but given their life experience by now they are actually rather extraordinary. Call it training and good genes. They are every day heroes–no superpowers, just hard work. So what if Chuck simply toned it down — killed some of their hard earned extraordinariness? That could explain the inability to pick a lock (a learned skill) or fight well (ditto). It doesn’t explain cavities or car trouble (don’t get me started on believing that Dean doesn’t carry spare Baby parts). But thinking of it the way I did is the only way not to want to vomit.
Episode 10 almost killed this last season for me. I enjoyed the first 15 minutes. As others said upthread, the idea that Chuck cursed them had potential but the idea that everything they accomplished in their lives was due to Chuck’s help really soured me. It spun out really quickly after that and when Garth throwing a bomb into the monster MMA fight, it was the last straw.
Moments like the tap dancing scene were fun because Jensen is talented and I enjoyed hearing the choreographer’s thoughts on vulnerability but it felt disconnected from the storyline. Dabb and Co have a lot of random threads and mentions that don’t add to the arc this season and are thrown out and thrown away. Why did we spend all that time with ghosts and Belphegor earlier this season? The trip to Purgatory, Sam learning to resurrect someone – good in theory but what do they add up to?
I told myself I wasn’t going to watch the show live anymore. Luckily I tuned in for episode 11 and I’ll wait to post any thoughts there when Sheila and the rest of you chime in. Perez and Glynn did a better job and it felt more like the SPN I recognize.
(Going to post my thoughts now about 15:11 while I still remember them).
I agree that this week was better than last, especially in how Sam and Dean’s predicament was framed as bad luck rather than “being normal.”
– While I enjoyed seeing the brothers play pool (when was the last time, Season 10?), I was bothered by how casually Dean shrugged off the death of the old guy whom he beat. Maybe I’m being too harsh, but what happened to the Dean from “Faith,” who was horrified to learn that he was alive at someone else’s expense?
– Castiel brought Jack into the Bunker?! And no one mentions the fact that Jack killed Mary and other innocent people last season? That Dean locked Jack up in a box and almost killed him? We’re all just gonna drink beers together like one happy family instead? I don’t mind Jack as a character, but what’s the point of having him go all kill crazy last year if not to show how it impacts his relationship with the Brothers? I hope this gets addressed in six weeks, but I don’t have my hopes set that high.
– I don’t understand how Jack, a creation, could kill God, the Creator. God isn’t some random monster. He’s supposed to be all powerful. If you’re going to have him as your villain, shouldn’t that mean something? Shouldn’t God be able to tell that the Winchesters got their luck back and take it away again? Whatever, I wouldn’t wonder about things like this if there were actually good things coming out of this storyline.
– I liked seeing the brothers working together, trusting each other. And it makes it extra cool knowing that it really was JA and JP making those pool shots. And now hiatus again! Only a few episodes left. Low-key terrified about the ending. Wish I could have faith in this writing team.
This is about 15.12 —
Not sure how deeply I want to get into the litany of woes in this one — Earth 2, Clinton reference, monologue time, the multitude of alt-verses consisting of a couple of versions in the bunker that they had the footage for, Dean and Cas drinking in the kitchen-cut away-cut to Dean & Cas drinking in the library, supporting cast S&D, the music, Sergei on speed dial, Claire and Kaia’s grand non-existent romance, cheesy budget Jawas, cheesy budget anti-perilous lime-and-cyan Bad Place, unnecessary flashback (of course) throwing old and new Death into distressing contrast, complete avoidance of anything approaching the uncanny or powerful in the filming of God, lame comet gag.
At any rate, what a dull and pointless exercise, following up one of the least-important of the five hundred dangling plot threads of these years, and a whole episode devoted to not even secondary characters. I can imagine another version of this where an interesting secondary character — Bobby, or Ellen&Jo, etc — got a “what the end means for them (& their relationship with S&D)” episode but this ain’t that.
Every episode they have a conversation about how and whether they can kill God, and I feel like very time they come to a different conclusion. Now that God is killing all the worlds (sigh), I guess Sam and Dean finally have a clear reason to kill him? (?? although they can’t stop him?) That monologue was essentially nonsense and an admission that the alt-worlds served no purpose. What quality of “our” Sam and Dean means anything to him besides the fact that they don’t do what he wants?). God could have been obsessed with any of the infinite recalcitrant Sams and Deans. The only reason he cares about the ones we’re watching is because they’re the ones we’re watching. It’s this weird fan-spectator position again. Don’t we all feel special that we care about and have been watching all along the “right” Sam and Dean, who are the right ones by virtue of the fact that we care about and have been watching them?
Jensen had a few reaction shots that were good. I liked the Radio Shed kid.
Goodness that was weak. And mostly unpleasant-looking.
What do you think, Jessie? Did god create a Shakespeare ‘s Monkeys number of alt-universes with almost-S&D’s? Are there universes with Pam and Dan as siblings? Sean and Dane? Death spelled without the “a?”
I did like “that’s not just stupid, it’s Winchester stupid.” And the Radio Shed was good, as you said.
I didn’t like pretending that even a few of the bunker wardings were working. Seriously?
And boy do I miss OG Death.
Actually I did see something about all those other infinite Sam and Deans.
BOY do I miss OG Death.
Maybe Marie Kondo is the underlying plot rationale I’ve been looking for!
Also, S&D had a magazine with skin care tips in the bunker? For Kaia to look at, then push away?
A skin magazine I can accept.
Maybe one of the much-meh’d alt-universe hunters left it behind.
Follow up question. Do you think god watched some Marie Kondo videos and decided to just tidy things up?
I think that would be as valid as anything the writers came up with.
Ugh. I haven’t seen it yet – I am dreading it.
How depressing it is that the show that used to make me so happy has turned to this. I remember that the break between 3.16 and 4.01 was brutal – I actually was counting the days until we found out what was happening to Dean in hell. There are so many other episodes and scenes that the show grabbed my heart and kept me a fan. It was was exhilarating to be so involved in a show.
This last episode was complete garbage. Who thought that bringing back Kaia was what any fan wanted to see this late in the game? The whole “God is a butthead” theme has just exhausted me and I’ve lost the desire to even try to figure out where it’s going. I like Rob Benedict fine, but Chuck is not written well enough anymore for me to feel anything but “get off the screen!”. It’s painful to see this great show and wonderful actors crawl toward the finish line.
Pat – I know, it’s so painful. especially since now it … might not even be finished at all, due to the shut-down? Maybe it would be a blessing.
I said to myself when she first came onscreen: “KAIA???”
Honestly. They are 1. in love with self-pitying teenage girls and 2. still so pissed off about the failed spinoff (even name-checked by Chuck – Jesus God people more pilots DON’T get picked up than DO – GET OVER IT.)
I also dislike the change in Jody’s character – maybe it’s a Kim Rhodes thing. Jody used to have a light touch – Kim Rhodes is funny, she used to be a breath of fresh air. Now she’s … generic. also her line “some BS male chivalry thing” – with that chip on her shoulder – is BS. Rhodes herself has a chip on her shoulder and it’s now IN the performance and Jody is gone.
and … Claire loved Kaia so much – based on one conversation – that she will literally be destroyed if she doesn’t get her revenge? Do they think we’re stupid?
Meanwhile the main problem is this:
Everyone DID things this episode – EXCEPT for Sam and Dean, who sat at the table reading.
JA and JP were right – this is a dog that needs to be put down.
and it pains me to say this but it’s true.
OTHER people – like the reaper – figured stuff out – Sam and Dean are support staff.
Ugh. This team does not get it.
and I repeat: KAIA???? and we have a handful of episodes to go?
she was part of a spinoff that FAILED.
There was a godawful scene that haunts me, where Jack, Sam and Dean are staring frowningly at books in the library, and Jack opens one book to a fresh and pretty Italian Spell Recipe, takes it up to Sam and Dean, and Sam says that he could tweak the spell to use Jack’s magic, and Jack gets all thoughtful. All in that comforting brown library lighting. It’s just dead. It’s a dead, dead scene, deader than Dillinger.
The scene doubly devastating because Sam is apparently a jerry-rig not jury-rig person :-( if this is new canon, I don’t want a bar of it!!!
What are y’all’s thoughts on 15.13? I’ve seen some responses that were a lot more positive than mine (after that fun opening scene, Billie started intoning about First Quests and Second Breakfasts and the whole vibe was so odd I ended up opening a text editor to start tracking my annoyances). I did enjoy Savage Garden S&D, and I enjoyed the fun J2 seemed to be having. None of it felt particularly considered or important, and the way it ended is utterly bizarre, but at least there were a couple of moments of human-feeling reflection. I also enjoyed seeing Miner again.
Aside from that: excruciating inhuman dialogue everywhere you turn. Every set bar the bunker looked like it was made out of papier mache. I’ll be haunted by those fake rocks in the garden of Eden until the day I die. Very cringey. That Hell set (and the cheesy organ music) is appalling. In the comments of the pilot rewatch Sheila mentions the impossibility of drawing a line between the pilot’s texture and Rowena’s purple eyes and lightening-bolt hands; the same is true for drawing a line between Dean and Sam at the bleached-out gas station and this chintzy paper-thin orange Hell. Quests leading to budget Indiana Jones rip-off with absurd “Sam holds the door while the others stand around for half an age” blocking.
Found the way they shot and costumed Ruby to be deeply upsetting. First the pleather blouse and the high contrast turquoise overlay (that wasn’t toooooo bad, although it made Danneel look like a blue-skinned alien babe on the cover of a 70s sci-fi novel), and then, in the empty, a blue velvet blazer and pink lipstick and flat front lighting? Why would they do this? Her face and colouring is insane. Did they just….forget? Because I haven’t!. But Ruby2 made such a strong impression on me that it still feels weird to think of her as a Padalecki not a Cortese because I’d get so excited to see her name, haha. Anyway, this is the era of pointless returns (well, I suppose “for the fans and the crew” is the point) and not leaving well enough alone.
The actual plot of the episode, all the supposedly emotional stuff, turned out to be: Can Jack get his soul back, and will Dean forgive him? Could nooooooooot gaf. This season seems to be hitting Dean and forgiveness pretty hard (will he forgive Jack or Cas? Will Kaia forgive him?) so maybe that will turn out to be something interesting? And Sam was in the same room so maybe that will turn out to be something interesting too.
Meg! Inflicting pain on Cas! About the only scene that didn’t go on too long. Poor Sam, holding that door closed for 40% of the episode. At least JP wasn’t forced to grimace-as-a-smile and say “I get that, I really do.”
The Garden – yikes! It could only have been worse if it were filmed in the yellow/green of a Sam/Amelia flashback.
And forgiveness is for losers. Real Dean is no loser. Season 11-15 Dean is the guy who ignores waitresses he spent the previous night with, who just accepts Cas’ “Sam is dead” without checking in on his brother. So we get Forgiveness Dean
– coming soon from Funko, with a side-tilted head to show he’s really listening to everyones pathetic excuses.
I didn’t just loath this episode like the previous one, so… an improvement?
Halfway through the episode I forgot what the Occultum (or whatever) it was even was – even though I had just been given that information 10 minutes before.
Sam and Dean wouldn’t figure out a smiling demon saying “right this way” is a trap, until they’re caught in the trap? these writers really think they’re dumb.
I agree about Ruby’s coloring – they just don’t know how to make anything beautfiful anymore, or capitalize on the beauty that exists – I mean, they’re making JA and JP look … washed out and bored (I clocked JA openly bored a couple of times in this ep. He is so over it.)
Despite the over-produced over-managed lOOKS of both women – I was happy to see that Gen – years out of the business – snapped right back in, there were some lines where she had real bite, real DRIVE, the way Ruby always did.
I don’t care about Jack. I don’t care about Castiel. They’re REALLY hammering home Destiel right now – I think they’re afraid of the fans. “Sexually intimate?” says Dean, huge closeup – cut to huge quizzical closeup of Castiel.
I’m so fucking bored with it and so pissed how this thing has HIJACKED the show.
But more than that – rewatching these early seasons – my new obsession is the genre-switch, which they did so by stealth and behind our backs. I am now curious to think of when the change-up really occurred. Or when it started. Even with the arrival of the angels in Season 4 – this was still a show with a basis in spooky supernatural phenomena and a horror aesthetic.
I mean, Sam and Dean DON’T EVEN WORK CASES ANYMORE.
I am BESIDE myself. When the other-world Sam and Dean said something like “so this is their lives, drinking beer and looking at computers” – I mean, I get that the writers were “making a joke” with the quick cut to Sam and Dean (and Castiel and Jack – BAH) fighting off hell hounds – but honestly it’s an indictment of what the show has become, how LAZY they are.
Sam and Dean cant figure out what the Occultum is on their own. Castiel has to call the Russian oligarch.
It’s enraging.
// Quests leading to budget Indiana Jones rip-off with absurd “Sam holds the door while the others stand around for half an age” blocking. //
Yeah. They don’t even get the small things right. This team is so DONE. They should have called it quits 4 years ago – this has been painful to watch.
The worst is … I just don’t care. Will Dean forgive Jack? Tune in next week!
I’m ranting. Sorry. That wasn’t even all that bad an episode, in reality.
// Billie started intoning about First Quests and Second Breakfasts //
Don’t we miss the old Death? Billie’s one-note. This team just doesn’t know a good thing when they have it. They want to get RID of every eccentric thing created by the teams before -the things that worked – and create their own. What they create is generic, re-hashed, HarryPotter-lite. They’ve never ever seen The Shining.
I’ve calmed down a little bit. it was fun to see JA and JP have fun with their alternates – plus the car was hilarious. This just reiterates how little I expect now … not sure what the point was of those alternates – GOD HIMSELF is not going to somehow guess that those two are not the real guys. Come ON.
One last thing: Meg: I do love Miner’s line readings, and always have.
“Sexually intimate?” I’d been wondering why that line was there – it appeared as if Dean didn’t know that Sam and Ruby had been together, and of course he knew, so my assumption was just that he was surprised to have Castiel state it so bluntly (though why that should surprise him I don’t know since Cas has always been that way) — but it totally makes sense that this was a nod to the Destiel supporters.
Yeah, they should have known the hell thing was a trap, but at least they battled the demons and WON this time, unlike last time (when they found out who the Queen of Hell was) when they couldn’t hold their own against the demons.
“Generic, re-hashed, Harry Potter-lite” – who ARE they writing for? I wish they could have kept writing for those of us who love what the show was instead of chasing after . . . what? A younger fan base? Destielers? super hero fans? I wish they paid attention to YOUR insights and not whatever is happening on Twitter.
//Don’t we miss the old Death? Billie’s one-note. //
It’s so weird, I literally just wrote this on another thread, and I’m reading this an hour later. I guess the librarian in me needs to say: I swear, I am not plagiarizing you!
(so sorry for posting so much – I swear I’m actually holding back)
Please don’t hold back. lol
It’s so frustrating that even when this team thinks of a potentially good, funny new idea, they can’t even follow through with it. Like the AU Sam and Dean could have played more of a role in the episode instead of it being the Jack show, but no. Also— I saw this somewhere and I liked it— Seasons 4-5 were all about Dean bucking destiny, choosing Team Free Will. But now, according to Billie, Sam and Dean and Jack are supposed to fulfill their destinies in destroying God. This team really is deconstructing everything that came before.
That’s an interesting observation – about how the show has shifted to Destiny.
Bah. This team doesn’t get it. Or they DO get it and they don’t LIKE it and so they’re going about destroying it.
That’s exactly what I’ve been noticing – that Billie keeps saying “play your role” and no one seems worried about that!!! The entire first five years were about them NOT playing the roles that Lucifer/Michael/heaven wanted them to play.
Jessie, oh, my word! The Garden of Eden was so tacky! It looked like a cheap little set. At least in Dark Side of the Moon, Joshua said that the Garden appeared to them as the Cleveland Botanical Garden, thus excusing any lack of heavenly grandeur. (I guess now Heaven’s Garden – which at the time I thought was referencing the Garden of Eden – now wasn’t that, but whatev.)
When I looked at a screenshot later, I realized that the area whereJack and the little girl stood appeared somewhat lush with ferns and greenery and sunlight, but all around them was a solemn, misty forest with no underbrush at all. The pale light of those tall trees just didn’t match the look or feel of the central garden and made it look tacky to me. (Or maybe it was the rock!)
mutecypher —
– coming soon from Funko, with a side-tilted head to show he’s really listening to everyones pathetic excuses.
hahaha, thanks, I hate it!
Sheila —
It was nice to get a couple of sharp lines and skeptical faces out of Ruby, I agree!
I don’t care about Jack. I don’t care about Castiel.
I know. It’s a real bummer when the story hinges on stuff involving them because my emotional engagement and interest is nil. So, this episode, Jack’s trek to Eden — my only response was “what’s the point of this? Why does it look so bad?” I suppose it’s foolish of me to continue to expect a paring away of characters until the core remains. The argument in some quarters is obviously that the core includes Cas and Jack.
They’re REALLY hammering home Destiel right now – I think they’re afraid of the fans.
I gotta say, I don’t see this. Some stuff here and there yeah is obviously a sop, and some stuff (like them sharing that whiskey conversation last week) seems to be because the writers still feel some residual invested energy in that relationship even though there’s no there there. But because there’s nothing potent or alive in that relationship, it’s hard for me to conceive of it being “for” Destiel peeps. I don’t feel like Destiel has hijacked the show, but I do feel like, as you say, the genre switch has brought all this detritus with it that just will not go away.
I am now curious to think of when the change-up really occurred. Or when it started. Even with the arrival of the angels in Season 4 – this was still a show with a basis in spooky supernatural phenomena and a horror aesthetic. I mean, Sam and Dean DON’T EVEN WORK CASES ANYMORE.
I’ve been thinking about this a bit, and to what degree the situation we find ourselves in was inevitable. The storyworld had to expand, evolve. What else could they have done? There’s been silly and odd-feeling stuff since s6&7 (the concept of Alphas and the Amazons never reeeeeally sat right with me, with their monster rituals and organisation) but I think the other genre shift elements came in piece by piece, feeling like they kinda fit until they didn’t. The bunker and the Men of Letters (MoL is the start of organised hunting which turned out to be disastrous on many many levels). Cas and Crowley in s10, carrying storylines separate from S&D. Naomi’s sterile Heaven turning into beige woollen Heaven. Crowley’s ugly Hell set with the endless black-clad demons. Rowena: initially a nasty foil for Crowley until she became pedestrian and ushered in the new era of witch-powers and the trappings of wealth. The Wankensteins: more wealthy organised monsterhood (politely ignoring Bloodlines).
And yet even with these gradual evolutions — s11 was still wonderful in so many ways! So was it inevitable, regardless of the man at the helm? Who could say? Maybe with someone else we would have gotten a few weaker and duller seasons like s10, more angels and demons and side storylines, more new characters expected to carry their weight. Maybe s15 would have seen a rally back to focus or maybe it would have dribbled away too. But would it have been bad in this way? Dabb grabbed hold of all that stuff and used it to haul the show off one track and onto another. All the stupid banalities of s12, leading into heroism, the ensemble expansion pack, spin-off attempts, Jack and Cas and the whole idea of “Team Free Will 2.0”, deadweight bunker, Sam the Nobody, and a displacement of the two main characters from the core drives and energies of the show.
As for Sam and Dean not working cases, I miss that too. On the other hand, in a final season you might expect more mytharc episodes, and I would have been fine with that, if it was, you know, better.
Fortune —
But now, according to Billie, Sam and Dean and Jack are supposed to fulfill their destinies in destroying God
Is that what she said? ha, I cannot keep track week to week, and nothing she says has any weight. She says stuff very seriously, and I enjoyed her introduction, but her costuming and the lines she’s given are so tacky and generic.
I finally watched “Galaxy Brain” I suspected it would be bad, but wow. It was literal drivel. Did anyone else notice that alt Kaia, or dark Kaia, or whatever, she didn’t have a name! Not only did they waste an episode on a failed Wayward Sisters character, they wasted an episode on a character they DID NOT EVEN BOTHER TO NAME. I think that was the real last straw for me, if anything encapsulates the laziness of the writing this season, it’s that.
I have this secret hope that they won’t kill God or even fight God because that’s not how you win. That’s not how they defeated Lucifer/destiny in Season 5 and I keep hoping that’s what’s going to happen here. My hopes were marginally rekindled when Jack was talking to the reaper and she was all, “keep quiet don’t use your powers wait for instructions” but then it’s 20 years later and no instructions have come and the boys run a quaint BNB and handle hauntings on the side now. That’s a little fan fictiony, but I mean the point to me was always that life sucks, but we can make choices that mean something, like choosing your relationship with your brother over killing him and trusting that relationship/love will be enough to mean something. Current writers do not get it.
Jenna – hi! Okay so Galaxy Brain left zero impression on me (so sad! I mean, if you say “Playthings” to me the entire episode unfurls in my head) – so I went and looked up a recap on the Wiki, and it all came back to me in a horrifying drone of boredom.
// Not only did they waste an episode on a failed Wayward Sisters character, //
This drove me INSANE. The Wayward fandom was so small – but so vocal – and so they threw them bones like this episode – annoying the vast majority of the fandom. They just were listening to social media way too much. Like, KAIA? As I recall, it was one of those episodes that featured a lot of people in the frame just standing around – Sam, Dean, Jack, Castiel, Billie … all standing in the bunker. It just pains me so much. I keep feeling “get all those other people OUT of there and let Sam and Dean BE.”
// they wasted an episode on a character they DID NOT EVEN BOTHER TO NAME. I think that was the real last straw for me, if anything encapsulates the laziness of the writing this season, it’s that. //
Wow, okay I don’t remember this.
So, what you’re saying is – let’s say, someone new starts watching the show (and God help them if they start in Season 15) – then “Kaia” isn’t named and identified in the episode, just in case there’s someone new? Ugh. Kaia is a disaster. Honestly, I’ve never recovered from the sight of her leaping and twirling around in her nicely-fitted coat – which … how did she manage to pull that off in a prehistoric world? Never mind.
// hat’s a little fan fictiony, but I mean the point to me was always that life sucks, but we can make choices that mean something, like choosing your relationship with your brother over killing him and trusting that relationship/love will be enough to mean something. Current writers do not get it.//
Wow. You put this so well. I totally agree.
Sheila- thank you so much for this response! Times are crazy (I live in Minneapolis), and it just feels so good to complain/think about/discuss something normal!
The “a lot of people in the frame just standing around” was so frustrating, and all those shots felt like they went on forever. It was dull, dull, dull.
Well there’s Kaia, who is trapped in prehistoric monster world, but then her doppleganger has no name, like they drive her all the way back to the bunker and swap her out for regular Kaia and this is not the first episode she’s been in, but no one ever refers to her by name. There’s even a moment when Dean is talking about her and should use her name and he has to stop himself b/c he doesn’t freaking know her name! If new people started withe season 15 I don’t know what they would think, it was SO strange and awkward and I was shocked b/c normally Meredith Glynn and Robert Berens write very good episodes with very snappy dialogue, but this one was terrible.
Ever since the season finale where Dean kills Lucifer by letting alt!Michael possess him I have had zero trust in Dabb’s understanding of the show or it’s themes. I mean there were problems before then, but that finale was all set up to be a repeat of Season 5 except that Sam and Jack find that their human connection is stronger than Lucifer/supernatural powers, a perfect call back to season 5 except giving Sam his moment to confront his former self in Jack, and they destroyed it with a Peter Pan angel fight. Just unforgivable.
It’s been a slow slog through 15 for me b/c it’s been so bad, but I just need to know what happens to these characters. There were enough good seasons to where I can’t look away now!
Jenna – oh my gosh, you’re from Minneapolis! I have been thinking so much about the city and the friends I have there. Wishing you safety and eventual peace.
And I agree – it’s a relief to distract myself from the stresses of our world right now talking about Supernatural!
// There’s even a moment when Dean is talking about her and should use her name and he has to stop himself b/c he doesn’t freaking know her name! //
oh my God, hahahahaha
I don’t know if I can bear to re-watch it, but I can so see that moment in my head.
// Ever since the season finale where Dean kills Lucifer by letting alt!Michael possess him I have had zero trust in Dabb’s understanding of the show or it’s themes. //
I appreciate your thoughts here – it’s so hard for me to stand back far enough to see where this thing really went off the rails. The whole squandering-of-Mary was “it” for me – although there was so much else wrong with that season. But I really like your thoughts here on that finale and why it was such a betrayal.
and I’m with you – I can’t look away now!
“The whole squandering-of-Mary was “it” for me”
I agree that Mary was terrible! There were problems before that finale, and I didnt care for season 12 at all, but that finale was just so blatently bad, such a poor man’s revision of what was possibly THE best episode of the series. When you look at the two side by side you really get a sense of how far things had gone off the rails in terms of what the people behind the scenes thought the show was, and how far off the mark they were.
Jenna –
// When you look at the two side by side you really get a sense of how far things had gone off the rails in terms of what the people behind the scenes thought the show was, and how far off the mark they were. //
Ugh. Yeah it was like deja vu – but the comparison was so depressing. Like, “I’ve seen this all before but now it’s … awful.”
// what the people behind the scenes thought the show was //
This was the weirdest and most disorienting aspect of it. When Sam and Dean started having shootouts with human beings – and SWAT teams – and the whole militarization-of-police thing that crept into the picture (before that, the only time we saw that is Nightshifter, IIRC) – the love-affair with macho-man military gear – which, honestly, we are now seeing raging across our country fighting peaceful protests – it’s just so NOT in the Supernatural style – it was so depressing to see. Sam and Dean who used to have these moral and ethical battles about killing other humans.
There were so many of those scenes in Season 12 – and even beyond the squandering of Mary – that’s when I thought – wowwwww, these people are messing with the DNA of the show. and they do not get it AT ALL.
Strangers at the wheel!
Man, I’ll never get over that line in The Spear when Dean actually called her Dark Kaia (I think he said “That’s not the Dark Kaia I know,” gag me with a spoon). It’s the same as when they make him say stuff like “Team Free Will 2.0” or whatever; inserting that extra-diegetic language is deep cringe. Dark Kaia is a shorthand viewers used. It’s pure comic book Elseworlds cheese and it has nothing to do with the characters.
Oh Jessie YES. Suddenly fandom was writing the scripts – and it broke the contract we had with the characters, fandom was so FELT in those moments …
were the writers aware of this? were they doing it deliberately? Or were they just spending too much time on Twitter and they literally didn’t realize that “Dark Kaia” was a fandom thing and not in the show proper?
Either way: it was cringe-worthy.
It made me mad for Jensen. The “and that’s when you were Polish” line too – I almost stopped watching. Like, don’t pretend you remember past episodes through a line like THAT. Jesus LORD.
and … what’s the latest intel – if you know – about finishing the season? I honestly am starting to have the sneaking suspicion that it might be left unfinished. Just the way things are going with the virus … but wondered if you had heard anything else?
Jared and Jensen on Instagram aren’t saying much – which, of course, is understandable! Such a strange time!!
I thought I saw somewhere that they were going to begin shooting the final episodes soon, but I don’t know exactly when. It looks like the plan is to finish them though because the goofy behind the scenes stuff has been coming out with notes that say Sam and Dean will be back.
// ecause the goofy behind the scenes stuff has been coming out with notes that say Sam and Dean will be back. //
Links to this? I think I saw one funny behind-the-scenes clip – but wondering if there are more?
They’ve posted one per week for a fair number of weeks. On YouTube, go to the account Shaving People, Punting Things ?, and you’ll find all their videos, which are mostly hilarious. These are 2 to 7 minutes long, and then there are others that are better promo material than the WB ever created.
The funny ones are TO DIE (LAUGHING) FOR.
Sarah – thank you so much!
“ Come Fall 2020, Supernatural will return to Thursday nights at 8pm ET”
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.denofgeek.com/tv/supernatural-season-15-return-date/%3famp
But who knows what will happen
!!!
Okay!
and yeah … who knows what will happen. The entertainment industry is in total shutdown – as a film critic I have no idea what my fall will be like. Normally the late winter and spring is the time of festivals – Cannes – Berlinale – SXSW – Tribeca – all of which screen the films which eventually usually are included in Oscar considerations – the films which we at the NYFCC vote on in the late autumn. And of course all of the festivals this spring were canceled (although many of them screened their film slate online – not all of their selection, though – I am sure there are some filmmakers who are horrified at the thought of people screening their films on an iPhone, without even the opportunity to see it on a big screen). The fall is always a busy time for film critics – it’s a rush to see everything before year-end voting – and now? I have no idea what will happen since none of those films have even been screened yet.
I realize there are more serious problems out there – but my actor friends have been in a state of suspended animation. This isn’t even to mention my stage actor friends. My cousin was set to open on Broadway this fall. I just don’t see that happening any time soon – live theatre is a whole other ballgame – and it’s heartbreaking to think of it ending indefinitely, due to the fear of so many people in one space.
Jared and Jensen must be quietly going insane.
wowww – this one is so illuminating:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wYfGpNRfZk
Jared doesn’t understand the script, and what Sam knows and what Sam doesn’t know , he doesn’t even understand the plot he is in – “wait, do Sam and Dean KNOW this … or … what the hell is this moment about?” and Jensen has to explain it to him – the script makes no sense and there’s no real continuity and no one knows what they’re doing. How are you supposed to play something if you don’t even know where you’ve come from and what you want?
This is not a comment on Jared. It’s a comment on the bad scripts and needlessly complicated plots that have no resonance – I mean, as an audience member I can’t keep track of the arcs going on in later seasons – whereas I can tell you exactly the plots and themes of every earlier season.
This “blooper” is inadvertently revealing. Jensen makes a joke: “let’s sit down and read the whole script and workshop it.” But it’s not really a joke.
It’s not a bad idea. Let’s workshop this script and re-work it so we all know what the hell is even HAPPENING. Ugh. Depressing.
haha oh man, thanks for reminding me about that whooooooooooooooole pointless trip to that chintzy Hell set, and Sam blocking the doors in the church for four hours, and Billie’s Fetch Quests. 80% of the episode devoted to dead air.
How are you supposed to play something if you don’t even know where you’ve come from and what you want?
Right?! There’s no spine, there’s no drive, there’s no consequence or goal or connection besides a McGuffin and some fanservice. Must be a nightmare to keep that straight when you shoot out of order, particularly when it’s a wild goose chase.
And also thank you for reminding me about the “that’s when you were Polish” line, too! what a miserable, forced reference!
I love Jensen’s glee at breaking Alex in this clip :D
“Billie’s Fetch Quests.” lol
Yes – no spine – no goal – nothing is real – nothing matters – Death is Dead – and Billie is Inconsequential – and everyone just STANDS AROUND in the same frame.
Imagine Jared or Jensen forgetting the stakes or the arc or where they are in Season 3 or 4. Yes, maybe once or twice they’d have to remind themselves where they were in time and space and where they were in the given Arc – but to not know what is happening at ALL? Never. They OWNED those arcs. Those arcs were theirs.
It’s so depressing!
Here’s a link to one that was posted two weeks ago, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0amXFZ44FY
at the end it says “The end of the road? Not yet.”
So I’m confident we will get those final episodes, just not sure when. I also have not looked at what’s happening in Vancouver with the virus or restrictions or anything like that. I have no idea what Canada has done about COVID-19, all my attention has been local for the last several months, and then even more hyper local for the last 2 weeks while we deal with protests over our really, really terrible Minneapolis police department. Watching SPN and posting about it here has been a lovely break!
Thinking of you all in Minnesota!!
My Canadian friends have had similar experiences as those of us in the US – particularly in the cities. I have a friend who lives out in the Western prairies, where people are more spread out – so I think there’s less concern out there.
Thanks so much for the link!
At the start of this lockdown I was doing a re-watch and then … I just stopped, because things got pretty spooky on my end – being in quarantine alone was …. yeah, it was something.
It’s been fun to “get back into it” in this thread! Thank you!