A bunch of rogues with the idea that they could create a new kind of human being through state control took over Russia!
I love the grainy old photographs of all of them – they always look so twinkly and jolly, don’t they? It’s such a dichotomy. A more humorless bunch has never existed. Stalin’s face always seems to be twinkling, as though he is Santa Claus on his day off. It’s creepy. But they ALL look like that to me. Like they are chortling from on high. I say “I love the grainy old photographs” not cause it does my heart good to see Trotsky smiling – but because I find them VERY interesting. Especially, as I mentioned, the collective twinkle in the eye.
CREEPY.
On this day, the workers seized the government buildings and put out a proclamation declaring the new government. There was almost no resistance.
Oversimplify? You accuse me of oversimplifying? I NEVER oversimplify … (quote from What’s Up Doc?)
Here are a couple of sites with information about the Russian Revolution – here and here. I cannot vouch for these sites, politically – I did browse through them in a cursory way to make sure I didn’t see any pictures of Che, haha, to make sure I wasn’t sending you all to some “whoo-hoo, yay for Communism” site – but it’s hard to tell at times. Click through the links if you’re interested in learning more.
The Russian Revolution is, along with Cary Grant and the early career of Ralph Macchio, one of my enduring fascinations.
Many reasons why.
First of all: I love politics and history – and whatever the outcome, you would be hard pressed to find a more important moment of political upheaval in the entire 20th century than the Russian Revolution. It changed the world.
Second of all: because it turns out that it was SUCH a bad idea. Communism is SUCH a bad idea. I read the original works of all those dudes – and what their PLAN actually is … I mean, I read all their grand schemes and I literally roll my eyes. Utopianism. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: any time some politician starts talking to you about Utopia, grab your loved ones and run for the hills. Make sure you are heavily armed. Utopianism is one step away from totalitarianism. In order to actually achieve any kind of Utopia, the individual must be ground to powder. There can be no individuals in a Utopia. But …. er … no matter what you do, you cannot get rid of the individual. Totalitarian states don’t care that their very IDEAS are illogical. They just want absolute power.
Thirdly: I am fascinated in the Russian Revolution because of the world-wide repercussions of it – and also because I vividly remember the entire edifice cracking apart in the late 80s. I couldn’t believe it. I am in that generation that still grew up being afraid of Russia. We were the last generation to grow up with that fear. We have OTHER fears now – but not that one. I grew up during the dying gasps of the Cold War. So – to learn about the BEGINNINGS of such a political movement – something that would be entrenched for the better part of a century – has always been important to me.
And lastly, and this is where I get a little hoo-hah new age-y: For whatever reason: cults will ALWAYS fascinate me. Any kind of mind-control, or brainwashing … any attempt to erase the individual’s sense of agency … It doesn’t matter if it’s Patty Hearst being kidnapped or what is being taught in the madrassahs of Pakistan – it’s an attempt at mind control. And that stuff just GETS to me.
There’s something in the Russian Revolution – the early heady days (I know that’s such a cliche – but it’s a perfect way to put it) of the Bolshevik takeover – something in their Utopian talk, their twinkly assurance that they could re-make the world, their convoluted reasoning – and – just the LANGUAGE itself -how the Communists used language – all of that points to a level of mind control – the beginnings of it – A very ominous thing. Imposing a mindset, a correct way of thinking, on a country of millions.
I’ve read John Reed’s 10 Days That Shook the World
But back to the mind-control thing: Reed puts a lot of the communiques from the leaders of the Revolution into the book. He prints their pamphlets, fliers, announcements – and all of it is in that LANGUAGE of Communism, that deadening blunted-edge language – with no poetry, no humanity in it. It is FROM a collective and it is TO a collective. You know what I’m talking about? Anyone who has read any of that stuff from Lenin or Trotsky will know what I am talking about. .I’m jumping around with this topic. Can’t help it. I get all pumped up when the Russian Revolution come up, and I don’t know where to begin.
To control a population: you MUST control their language. You MUST control how they express themselves. You MUST show them the “correct” way to speak. There is only ONE meaning of the word “state”. There can only be ONE meaning of the word “freedom”. So the leaders of the Revolution set out immediately to co-opt the language. Watch any developing revolution anywhere in the world. And watch how they start by controlling the language.
George Orwell knew this, of course, and that’s where the whole Newspeak thing comes from, in 1984
I find it interesting, and horrifically ironic, that Lenin would say: “While the State exists there can be no freedom; when there is freedom there will be no State.”
Look at that language. Also, look at the Utopianism. I am not convinced that any of these people truly believed in the Utopia – or some of them did – but I think most of it was just a big ol’ power grab, doctored up in political Newspeak language. Anyhoo. Lenin makes that statement – but then of course what happened in Russia? The State became EVERYTHING, and no, there was no freedom. The State was the religion.
I refuse to just blame this on Stalin’s evil – although I do think he was evil – and missing whatever piece it is that makes most of us human. But I don’t think Stalin took an essentially good idea and made it bad and evil. I think it was a terrible idea to begin with.
Again: anyone in power who talks about Utopias is NOT TO BE TRUSTED. They can’t WAIT to put you under the iron boot of the State. THAT’S Utopia.
Okay. See what I mean? I can’t shut up.
Check out the picture below – of junkers lounging around in the Winter Palace in the fall of 1917:
From John Reed’s Ten Days That Shook the World (Penguin Classics)
By this time, in the light that streamed out of all the Winter Palace windows, I could see that the first two or three hundred men were Red Guards, with only a few scattered soldiers. Over the barricade of firewood we clambered, and leaping down inside gave a triumphant shout as we stumbled on a heap of rifles thrown down by the yunkers who had stood there. On both sides of the main gateway the doors stood wide open, light streamed out, and from the huge pile came not the slightest sound.
Carried along by the eager wave of men we were swept into the right hand entrance, opening into a great bare vaulted room, the cellar of the East wing, from which issued a maze of corridors and stair-cases. A number of huge packing cases stood about, and upon these the Red Guards and soldiers fell furiously, battering them open with the butts of their rifles, and pulling out carpets, curtains, linen, porcelain plates, glassware … One man went strutting around with a bronze clock perched on his shoulder; another found a plume of ostrich feathers which he stuck in his hat. The looting was just beginning when somebody cried, “Comrades! Don’t touch anything! Don’t take anything! This is the property of the People!” Immediately twenty voices were crying, “Stop! Put everything back! Don’t take anything! Property of the People!” Many hands dragged the spoilers down. Damask and tapestry were snatched from the arms of those who had them; two men took away the bronze clock. Roughly and hastily the things were crammed back in their cases, and self-appointed sentinels stood guard. It was all utterly spontaneous. Through corridors and up stair-cases the cry could be heard growing fainter and fainter in the distance, “Revolutionary discipline! Property of the People ….”
Also, never trust a wealthy person (Karl Marx) who talks about what is best for the working class.
Are you kidding? Don’t ever shut up about stuff like this.
“Other evils there are that may come, for Sauron himself is but a servant or emissary.”
That said, I don’t mean that you should make this a political blog or anything–there are plenty of those–but this is a fight that will never be over, never be finally won–or finally, thankfully, be lost.
oooh … great line about Sauron! Very appropriate!
Something about people catching an air of discontent and following that sentement regardless of how ridiculous the alternative really is … seems to be spreading lately.
Paris, man. It’s kind of scary what’s happening there and it’s this level of social unrest that causes the violent overthrow of government. I wonder if there’s more going on there than what they’re saying. They don’t seem to be rallying behind any central influence … hmm.
Cullen – I don’t know if it’s “lately”. I think it’s part of mankind, part of what political movements are all about. But also: There has to be SOME level of idealism in a revolution – otherwise you just get cynical power-grabs like the lunatic leaders in so many African countries. Our founding fathers were practical, cynical guys – they distrusted man to be rational once he had power in his hands. They understood human nature. But there was also an IDEA behind it … an IDEA of the new country.
So I don’t think this is a new phenomenon at all.
It’s just maybe accelerated now because we have a worldwide 24-hour news cycle.
But yeah – the situation in France is fucking scary – although not surprising at ALL.
Oh, I understand the cyclic nature of it all. I’m just saying that I’m noticing that ferver again, lately.
Yeah. It’s that wild-eyed no-intellect belief in a Utopia.
shivers …
I remember in high school when we read the book Utopia – the teacher gave us a writing assignment – we had to create our own Utopias. We had to each give a presentation to the class about our own perfect world, the laws we would make, the way the government should be set up, education – yadda yadda – and it was amazing how – with each personal Utopia – all the questions from the class and the teacher would usually lead to dead-end thinking on the part of the Utopia-planner.
For example:
“So what if I didn’t WANT to do this this and this?”
“Uhm … well … but you WOULD want to … if you lived in the Utopia …”
Okay. And how does that work, exactly?
It was a great (and subtle) lesson in how unworkable Utopias really are.
It truly is a Brave New World. I’m so glad I read Huxley at an early age. That coupled with 1984 really turned me off to utopian rhetoric.
cullen – yeah. I truly believe, too, that growing up with this intense fear of Russia was somehow instrumental. I grew up knowing I didn’t want to be in a country like THAT. When we read Orwell in high school, we had a clear example right in front of our faces of what he was talking about.
Also, now please forgive me as I walk down memory lane:
In 2nd grade – my teacher Mrs. Rand (one of the best teacerhs I ever had) went to Romania – which was where her ancestors were from. Her trip was in the mid 1970s.
So when she returned, I remember she devoted an entire day to telling us about her trip – which was my introduction to Communism.
Funny what you remember – but it has stayed with me:
She said that there was a gorgeous park somehwere with plush beautiful grass – but no one was allowed to go into it. It was a display park, basically.
I remember thinking – and somehow I “got it”: “But … would you be arrested if you walked in the park?”
For some reason, I GOT the malevolence she had experienced – the over-controlling government – in that one anecdote about the park. And all I coudl think about was: what would happen to you if you decided to disobey and walked on the grass????
Sheila,
In 6th grade, a few of us “bright” students were in charge of setting up a government for our portion of the sixth grade.
We were in the progressive section of the school, about 150 students. We had “open classrooms” with a college-like schedule with only 50% of the time in lecture style classroom and the rest self/group study. Interestly enough, this wasn’t in Berkley or another liberal place this was at DOD school on Clark Air Base in the Phillipines (Of course, in later years, the school would end up buried under several feet of ash when Mt. Pinatubo blew).
Anyway, we know-it-all 6th graders decided upon a philosopher-king approach to the government and us as the philosopher-kings; after all, we were hand picked by the teachers for our intellect and good judgement, right? Fortunately, we had a genius for a social studies teacher who let it go for a couple of days.
We convinced the rest of the students to go along with this approach as “WE” would be in charge of many aspects of school life not the teachers. They bought into it and agreed… Two days later the teachers organized a coup. For the next week, our “open classroom” priviledges were taken away (i.e. our “free” study time was closely monitored in specific closed off areas), kids lost their recess privileges for minor offenses, and kids turned in other kids for other minor offenses anonymously to regain their own recess and other privileges.
We learned our lesson (save for a few who said it would have been different if the student dictators were involved). Maybe not the Jane Elliot blue eyed vs. brown eyed experiment (which I still disappove of based on the age of the children), but I always wonder if this was ever written up in an education journal…
Bigger question: Do psychopaths or sociopaths rise to power to fill a political gap in an unstable society, or do dreamers and thinkers succumb to their worst portions of their personality once they get absolute power.
Minor question: How does someone who’s lived in the Philippines twice in their lives (granted the first one when they weren’t of reading age) misspell Philippines!!
JFH – I love your first question. It is something I have pondered often.
I mentioned this post to a coworker and she informed me that her father fought in the Bolshevik army, but came to the US in 1923. Isn’t that bizzare?
The Ripple Effect of Utopianism
Sheila writes an excellent post about the anniversary of the Fall of Russia…or at least that is how it has formed in my mind in these aftermath times of …
Sheila that was a MOST EXCELLENT post…I have written up one of my own to feature it. Hope you don’t mind.
Sheila that was a MOST EXCELLENT post…I have written up one of my own to feature it. Hope you don’t mind.
whoa – sorry for the double post…wasnt sure if it went through the first time.
Sharon – go right ahead! Let me come over and read your post.
Thanks for linking!
I remember in 6th grade history, my history teacher had a particular fascination with the Russian Revolution (it might be because one set of her grandparents were Russian Jews who felt they needed to escape the country – and came to the U.S., and as a result of that and other things, this wonderful woman came to be teaching my history class in sixth grade). She found prints of some of the old films from that time – footage of Lenin et al. It was fascinating to watch the jerky rough old films* And it was horrifying to think of what all went on – all the killings, all the people who just disappeared.
And yet, at the same time, it’s fascinating – did they really believe it would work? Were they just a bunch of con artists figuring they and their friends could get theirs by overthrowing the government and then sticking it to the proletariat they were claiming to promote? Were they nuts? How can you kill someone to advance your aims? How can you arrange to have many people killed? Doesn’t that weigh on your conscience?
And it was especially resonant, because this was the early 80s – the time of the “Evil Empire” and the Cold War. I knew people who built bomb shelters in their backyards and stocked them against the time the Russians would drop the bomb. (And even then, my question was: do you really want to survive nuclear war? Wouldn’t it be better to die fast and early, than to either have to be a “breeder” to repopulate the land, or to die of some horrible disease from low-level radiation poisoning?)
And then, when I was in college, the “Evil Empire” crumbled, and Russia’s back, trying to feel its way towards a better form of government.
Incidentally, my father, who is one of the most politically conservative people I know, once remarked that he read The Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital when he was in college, and he said he thought that Communism was a beautiful idea on paper, “but it can never work because of human nature.” (The old “some pigs is more equal than others” idea). I’m not sure I agree with him in that – the sense that Communism is in any way a beautiful idea – but the fact that this staunch Reagan Republican said it.
(I also really like JFH’s first question and it’s something I’ve contemplated from time to time.)
(I guess I received kind of a baptism by fire in junior high history; in seventh grade, the history teacher’s big interest was the Holocaust. I certainly learned about man’s inhumanity to man as an early teen).
*(I’m still fascinated by old film. I was almost late to work today because A&E was showing a special on Ellis Island complete with what I think was authentic footage of immigrants – it’s just fascinating to watch and realize that you’re seeing images that are close to 90 years old)
“From each according to his ability,
To each according to his need”
Does sound great doesn’t it? Especially for those who think they need. I’m sure it appealed to many poor Russians who felt the Czars had ignore them.
Funny how the “State” never quite withered away. Those in power rather grew to like it. Power does indeed corrupt.
I recently read a novel called Children of the Arbat – given to me by John, a fellow blogger and blog-buddy of mine. He knows my fascination with Stalin – and there has to be one of the best psychological portraits of that man in that work of fiction that I have ever read. I’ve read about 10 biographies of him … and none of them seem to … come close to … his essence. Not that I’m saying I know what his essence is – I don’t – but there’s something very BAFFLING about Stalin – even great historians admit this, there is so much that is unknown –
I have a HUGE post I want to do about Children of the Arbat and Stalin and my thoughts about Stalin but it’s gonna be massive and I just don’t have the energy right now. But it’s on the list.
Great book.
David N –
Yup. Funny how almost immediately there developed a Party elite. Who became interested in the most “bourgeois” things – dashas, cars, travel …
You cannot cut out the fact that it is human nature to want MORE!!
AS someone who sees the abuse of language in operation today, the attempt to impose a mindset, a correct way of thinking, on a country of millions.. the pretence of re-imagining how this world could be if only.. if only.. by a political party currently being indulged by governments.. Well.. it’s another sobering post, Sheila.
Thank you. I will redouble my efforts to prevent my worst imaginings. It is all I can do.
AS someone who sees the abuse of language in operation today, the attempt to impose a mindset, a correct way of thinking, on a country of millions.. the pretence of re-imagining how this world could be if only.. if only.. by a political party currently being indulged by governments.. Well.. it’s another sobering post, Sheila.
Pete, I was tempted to write a post earlier at the Pica, on this very topic (too little time today, unfortunately). I wonder how much the PCing of language has led to a climate where offense is becoming more common and this offense and the reaction to it is becoming more passionate.
It’s scary. I truly believe that overindulging in PC is creating an environment where something like the events in Paris are made possible.
Have you stumbled onto Sholokhov’s Don novels? Grisha sometimes sounds like Die Hard on steroids, but the setting is in the Cossack villages during the transition from WWI to the Revolution.
And Quiet Flows the Don
The Don Flows Home to the Sea
Great books. And Sholokhov’s even more anti-Communist than you are.
drlivipr –
Oh my God – and Quiet Flows the Don – WHAT A BOOK!!!!
I haven’t read the other one though. I’m a sucker for big ol’ political Russian novels. It seems like every Russian novel is political, even if it’s a love story.
Having studied Chekhov a ton – even though those plays rarely mention politics or government – the soul of the Russian nation and its eventual fate hangs over those beautiful plays like a cloud.
cullen –
oh God, you need to write that post. I would write it but I fear my blood vessels would burst from rage.
I recently read the book The Language POlice about the editing of textbooks – and the pressures that come from the left and the right – to CONTROL LANGUAGE –
I swear to God, I read that book and felt like I had gone down the rabbit hole. SUCH an important book.
Language is precious. It should not be controlled. I’m pretty radical about it. I mean, God, I still say the word “retarded” to mean stupid.
And cullen – I agree with you. The over-control of language makes people MORE sensitive. Because words become scary, dangerous, and off-limits.
I don’t agree with that at all.
That’s why I love stand-up comedians who push the boundaries, who say stuff that other people won’t say, who let us let off steam in this rarified atmosphere of political correctness – Chris Rock, etc.
Good for them – we need AIR in our language. Otherwise people literally have a brain hemorrhage if they come across the word “nigger” in Huck Finn. Or, even more idiotically, hear someone use the word “niggardly”.
It’s insanity.
Ummm…you quoted “What’s Up Doc?” in the middle of a Stalin post.
You’re a genius.
alex – hahahahahahaha And I mentioned Ralph Macchio and Cary Grant. There is a reason why I am not really taken seriously.
Oh, and I also said the word “Anyhoo” TWICE in the post.
Honestly. I need an editor.
“How much is it without the Bufferin?”
Oh say can’t you say
I have been reluctant to post anything here or in comments on other blogs about the Paris riots. The truth is that I’m not well educated on them. Most of the stories you read about it read like doublespeak. Something feels obfuscated and I walk away …
Schwinnnggg!
On a serious note, I cannot agree more with you about propaganda and “revolutionary” writing. I have had people look through my book collection and say, “I can’t believe you waste your time reading ________–it’s Utopian propaganda” or “Give me a break, John Reed was a misguided fool” –you get the idea. I think it is important and necessary to read all of it to really grasp how and why it happened. The initial passion and excitement gives way to dull, soulless political rhetoric. The real evil of Communism is exposed as much in the writings of its advocates as it is in its detractors. Lenin’s quote about Freedom and the State says it all. I think that is why the early photos fascinate us. We know where it all leads. All that excitement and energy and hope–it all leads to the gulags.
at the risk of incurring the wrath of Sheila…while i agree that we are way tooooo sensitive to language these days…imagine that you are a child or a parent and the schoolyard is filled with “you’re retarded!” or “that’s so gay”…both exclamations intended to hurt the receiver since those states of being are assumed by the speaker to be the worst things ever!!! What if you are gay? or special needs? or the parent of either? I can promise you that the feelings, deep and often irreversible, that those words inflict on a child are real. They are not the imagined slights of some screaming politically correct harpy..they are the actual feelings of a human being. Having said that..i dont think we should censor..but how do u suppose children learn those hostile connotations? PC censorship is bullshit..but adult consideration of the effect of their words is just maturity. Know your audience..i guess is my suggestion.
Mitchell – well, I said generally the same thing in the “retarded” piece. I agree with that. There are words I won’t use. And I judge people if they use certain words. If someone says the word “faggot” to me – or “fag” – then I judge them as an asshole, and it is a dealbreaker. Same with “nigger”. etc. etc. Certain things are a sign of a lack of education and tolerance and I don’t have time for ignorant people.
But I think the organized stifling of language causes way more problems than the alternative. Kids can be punished for taunting other kids on a case by case basis – and they are punished – but to demonize certain words to such a degree and to assume that if you even SEE those words … you are going to have a nervous breakdown … (that’s what The Language Police is all about) creates a generation of weaklings who FREAK OUT at the slightest provocation.
Some of the examples of textbook edits from The Language Police:
— all books in the reading curriculum need to be inoffensive to EVERYONE. So … basically that means … most great literature is off the curriculum. Let’s see … in Moby Dick … the character of Queequeg COULD be interpreted as “offensive” to 20th century sensibilities … and God forbid the little tender hearts in the classroom actually have to be confronted with something that “offends them”
My example of “niggardly” is what I’m talking about as well. Do I think the word “nigger” should still be in common usage? No! I’m glad that people who say it regularly and as an epithet are now made to feel ashamed. Good. That’s progress.
But to literally FREAK OUT and hold fucking press conferences because someone in a position of authority said a word that SOUNDS like nigger … to me, that’s just nuts.
Reality turned upside down. Everyone just looking for excuses to be outraged. There is legitimate outrage – and then there is a culture of people who walk around looking for reasons to be outraged.
I do believe that part of that is because language has been so watered down and stultified … that people become unused to being uncomfortable. And so when they are confronted with something outside the box – they FREAK. They are no longer able to have a measured response.
I think kids need to be exposed to ALL of this stuff. And not protected so vehemently so that they think the entire world should be set up to protect their sensibilities. Do you see what I mean?
We all have to deal with challenges. We all have to deal with not getting what we want – or being judged on our appearances. It is different from case to case … and for some people it is harder than others – but NOBODY escapes it. To pretend to children that the entire world is going to be set up so that they will NEVER feel uncomfortable or be offended – is just another version of that Utopianism that I find so dangerous.
Other examples of co-opting of language – I was thinking of this last night:
— the Christian right have taken words like “family” and “morals” and “values” and they now use those beautiful words in an exclusionary and hateful way. THEY want to OWN those words and lecture us on what IS and is NOT a family. They think that “morals” are somehow connected to your religion AND to which lever you push when you vote. These people are Utopianists of a scary scary stripe.
Basically what I’m saying is, Mitchell – and this is what I tried to say in the “half-tard” post:
I think the origins of political correctness were well-intentioned and they made people actually think about the words they use for things – I think that is progress.
But the lunatics are running the asylum now. It’s like any political movement – it goes through phases. Beginning, flourishing, then it moves into decadence – loses touch with its origins …
That’s where I think we are now. I can hear an epithet about the Irish, about women, about New Yorkers, whatever – I can hear epithets and insults and nasty jokes – and not blow a gasket. I may not LIKE it … but it’s not like I feel like the world is set up to make ME comfortable. I am aware that there is shit out there that I don’t like – and if it’s directed at me, I will fight back … but it’s not like my entire consciousness is unable to deal with the fact that it exists AT ALL.
That’s what I see the PC-lunacy has descended to – an unwillingness to deal with the fact that some people are just assholes, and you’re gonna have to toughen up, and say stuff like: “Sticks and stones may break my bones …”
I have to think more on this. I hear your point, Mitchell, and I can’t stand to see little children suffering because of a name they are called – but I think, in a way, the cure has become its own problem.
very well said Sheila..and you know me..if its funny..its fair game! But funny implies that it is used with cleverness and irony and silliness..all those good things…my point was that as adults with full awareness of the world at large..which is often unfriendly and down-right cruel…can take some repsonsibility for the ways in which we perpetuate the ugliness…while i would guess that most of ur readers are responsible in that way..i would also venture to guess that most of the world is not. I , in no way, believe in controlling words on college campuses or talk shows for that matter(we wouldnt have the beauty of Sara Silverman’s endless visciousness..check out her interview in the New Yorker last month!!!)…i reccommend no sanctioned censorship…but maybe if the people who are so put off by PC behavior stopped for a moment to consider feelings, human and lasting for one second in the middle of their reactionary rants…the little change that is possible might occur.
i guess..in a nut shell…if we are to evolve a s a people… can’t we simply take a second and think about how someone else feels?..is that PC? It sounds rather Christian to me..especially coming for the Jewish boy for RI.
I think the simple truth is that those who need to be PC’d are those who are the least likely to ever “get it,” Mitchell. While there are those of us who realize the proper time and place to use certain language, there will always be those who do not. And they’ll weild it as a weapon.
I’d rather my child be trained how to deflect that weapon than to have no practice with it at all.
Poor metaphors aside, I resent anyone who tells me that I can’t say or write something because someone might get offended. I am of the opinion that more folks need to be offended. Because they might then better realize how to deal with it.
Mitchell – But I think we DO now do that. We have made great progress in the last 20 years in how language is used – in our understanding of different issues, etc. etc. There has been an almost complete overhaul of how we view these things IN OUR LIFETIME. That’s huge.
But we cannot BAN ugliness. There will always be assholes who don’t play by the rules.
But it is up to US how we respond.
This takes toughness and strength of character. If someone calls me a “redheaded pussy bitch” (hmmm … member that?) … do I crawl into a corner and weep at how cruel the world is?? I mean, I still wonder what I did to deserve such contempt … but whatever – I know who I am, and those people will not define me.
My fear is that the stifling PC culture has created an environment where people feel that NEVER being offended is somehow a RIGHT.
Oops … cross-over posts.
Mitchell, I’m remembering back on my own grade school experience.
We had huge Christmas trees IN THE CLASSROOM at Christmastime … it was Christmas Christmas Christmas – despite the fact that we had tons of Jewish kids in our class and – in 1979 – after Khomeini took over Iran – an influx of Iranian kids. Iranian kids who were Shiite Muslims, not Christians.
Now – I don’t know how the Jewish kids felt about the Christmas carols in the class, the Christmas decorations, etc. – and we did have some Jewish parents come in and teach us about the Jewish holidays – but it was just ASSUMED that the Christmas holiday was paramount.
I can’t imagine that that is the case now. It is accepted and assumed that there are other faiths – and they should also have their moment in the sun – and be learned about, and etc. etc.
That’s within our lifetime – that’s pretty huge progress.
But we cannot BAN ugliness. There will always be assholes who don’t play by the rules.
Exactly my point.
you may be right Cullen..that the people who need to understand the “responsiblity” that i mentioned..will never get it…that is depressing as hell! I also agree that children have to toughen up…but how lovely if they didnt have to… have their spirit or self-esteem crushed at the same time. I would never ever suggest that someone could or couldn’t write or say anything..thats not my point…my point is while we bitch about the PC police…to whom i do not belong…we remember that (to play devils-advocate) that the whole movement was an attempt to evolve into a better world for us AND our children…if the people who taught their kids that to use “Jew” as a verb…as in “can i Jew a cigarette?” or “he tried to Jew me down”…have taken a moment’s pause to understand what they are actaully teaching..then i think it is a good thing. Which is worse… unexamined bigotry and hatred…or Political Correctness?
Mitchell –
I am now thinking … and forgive me as I get a bit emotional … about the hell you went through as a child, and how mean people were to you. Now – do I wish you hadn’t experienced such despair as a 7 YEAR OLD???? HELL YES!
But you, forgive me, are one tough motherfucker because of it … You can maneuver thru this brutal world, you are funny, you disarm your enemies, you are, essentially, OKAY.
You were forced to be tough. It would have been wonderful if you had been embraced, and accepted, and cherished. How I wish that were the case for you, because the thought of you – the little boy – in such a state of chaos – is very painful for me.
But … you are who you are today because of that. And … while it has been a rocky road, you are a survivor. You know there is hatred out there – you’ve been on the blunt end of that stick – but sometimes your very existence, or presence, breaks down people’s preconceived notions about gay people. I’ve seen it happen!!! And you do this with wit, with cleverness, with grace … and people end up being on your side, and saying to each other, “He’s awesome!” People who have never met a gay person, I mean.
So … I’m just saying. That which doesn’t kill us, yadda yadda.
I actually think they are equally as bad. We well know what unexamined bigotry leads to. I hypothesize that PC can lead to an environment where the response to offensive behavior is as extreme as what is happening in Paris right now. That is, an extreme overreaction to an offense.
also…Sheila..my point isnt that we should never be offended..but it seems that “oh toughen up” is more valid these days than..”wow,you just really hurt my feelings”…aren’t they both valid…because…sorry..i have feelings..i love them and i don’t want to become inured to all those things…i dont need to weep in the corner..but can’t i feel the sting? Where was the toughen up people when littel pre-redheaded girls were getting poked with pencils? Ya know what i mean…im not accusing anyone o this thread of ranting against PC..im jsut taking the side that the responsible attention to other humans and their lives is not such a bad thing.
And to Sheila’s post, I echo her sentiments exactly. You would not be who you are today had you not experienced and learned to deal with what you did.
ok..yes..but at the risk of being too personal or vulnerable for the milieu..im also deeply wounded by it…wounds that will never heal..that humor and toughness and a fantastic leather jacket will assuage..but never remove..its easy to just assume that because im not picking off rednecks from a clock tower.that i “shall overcome”…sure…im a survivor as we all are in our way..but dont kid urself..scratch the surface of a survivor and there is alot of pain.
Mitchell –
I hate that girl who poked me with a pencil.
I know. And balance is, of course, important. Any of these sentiments (“toughen up” or “what about my feelings”) – taken to their extremes – are not good. Not good at all.
Many of my friends who are teachers – or who have grade-school age kids – talk about how the whole “be sensitive to feelings” thing ends up protecting the BULLIES – at least in today’s classroom. Kids who are being bullied mercilessly and then tell the principal or whatever – are asked to “understand” what the bully is going thru – his parents are getting divorced, he has ADD, whatever … It’s enraging. The GOOD kids are asked to be patient and understanding of the BAD.
This is the lunacy that is described to me, anyway.
And yes. I think our ability to feel hurt – to have feelings at all – is one of our greatest gifts as human beings. To see it beaten out of certain children – by adults who have no patience with messy emotion – is enraging as well.
*moment of self-awareness* ..as i write of my pain and the cruelty of the world…im sitting here with my tweezers..removing the ear-hair that threatens to take over my head!! Sometimes perspective is good!
Mitchell –
I don’t think I’m kidding myself. I know you have paid a price for what you went thru – an incalculable price. Things were taken from you that you can never get back.
My experience in junior high was the same thing. Shit was done to me during junior high that I STILL FUCKING DEAL WITH. Now I’ll be personal and vulnerable: My relationships with men, my relationship to sex, my body … most of it, all my problesm, were formed during that one year of unending shame.
That’s a lot of pain.
when did i become Walter Matthau…and why didnt u tell me!!!
Mitchell –
hahahahahahaha
Mitchell –
didn’t you say it was your goal that one day you would somehow magically develop an ethnic Jewish accent as well? Like a Lower East Side 1900-era immigrant accent?
Get on that!!
exactly…i hate that that happened to u..or to anyone…my question is… have we actually learned anything? Has this awkward period of PC-ness sufficiently done..in an evolutionary sense…what it was born to do?
its happening..im getting more ethnic as i get older..be careful what you wish for!!!
isnt evolution always awkward? or revolution for that matter..to go back to the original post?
Mitchell, I can never understand what you went through personally. I understand that you harbor pain from those experiences.
But, what I’m trying to say, is that we all do to some degree and it makes us who we are. Were it not for the pain that you feel you might not have the perspective to be the caring and understanding person that you obviously are now.
I wish we could all be respectful of each other’s emotions. But I also understand that it’s just not part of human nature to be completely understanding — damn Martian bastards.
also..where the hell is Alex..we had an amazing converation about the word “tranny” the other day…she and Honey and I. They had good points.
Opposing points..but good.
Cullen..i agree..but i continue to hope and dream.
I certainly don’t think that name-calling and taunting should be allowed in the classroom – and I look at Cashel, and I feel overWHELMINGLY protective of him … Like, I would kick anyone’s ass who tried to hurt him, or hurt his feelings … but I feel that political correctness has outstayed its welcome – at least in the form it has now taken. It has now become so warped that … almost EVERYTHING is off-limits.
For example – on national standardized reading tests – none of the excerpts can mention things like “mountains” or “oceans” – or anything geographically specific – because kids who take the test who live in Rhode Island might become overwhelmingly confused and despairing if they run into a reference to a mountain. I’m not exaggerating. Kids will feel “left out” – Kids will feel “geographically challenged”. Yes – those words are used.
Now this is insane. I could read a book as a kid and come across: “They then climbed the mountain” and not fall into a pit of geographically-challenged despair.
The original intentions of political correctness are very important and they are still important and there is still a lot of work to be done.
But that kind of lunacy – DON’T MENTION MOUNTAINS???? – I am militant about it. It has GOT to end. Because if there’s one thing I DO know … it’s that language – in all its complexity – is so important. To developing minds, expanding imagination … If you kill language, then you kill imagination.
we are in total agreement there!!
Mitchell –
Oh, and to your question “have we learned anything?”
Obviously I wish I had had a gentler introduction to the cruelty of the world than what I went through in 7th grade – I wish I hadn’t had such a harsh introduction to – well, the whole Dee situation I wish it hadn’t been SUCH a horrible experience. Did it need to be THAT bad? Had I done something horrible in a former life to deserve such a harsh reality? What had I ever done to anyone to deserve that???
But if I ever have a kid … I KNOW that I will be aware of these possible issues as we move towards puberty. I will be there for my child as she or he goes through that difficult transition – I will be aware of the signs – and I will let my kid know I’m there for them.
So maybe that awful time will help me to be a better mother. I don’t know. At least I hope so.
i agree..i think my facility with the troupers is partly due to my heightned sensitivity..altho’ i can be pretty tough when they misbehave…mountains??? oceans??? ridiculous!!! But if the climate of attention makes one father stop and pause before he uses “fag” about or in front of his kids…then i think it has been worth it.
*still plucking at my ears*
Cullen –
I appreciate your point about Martian bastards because I know that you are aware that all of our problems as a human race actually originate from an intergalactic war that occurred 75 million years ago.
What’s worse Michell, in your opinion, overhearing someone saying:
“Joe’s such a f*g”
“Joe’s such a f*ck-up”
Both, IMHO, are vulger language and don’t belong in public discourse, and I would judge then to be equally bad.
Of course, the worst is misspelling someone’s name.
;)
i agree with u..both are bad…sensivity does not have to equal weakness…thats my point i guess.
My wife is dyslexic, and she HATES dyslexic jokes, yet others at her HS reunion (her school was a private school that specialized in dyslexia), have no problem with it… Then again it may be more of a thing of going along rather than getting upset about something they can’t control (Still doesn’t make it right)
To me, “fag” is on the level of “nigger”. If someone uses that word casually, I judge them as uncouth, ignorant, and someone I do not want to associate with in any way, shape or form. I don’t like to be around open hatred.
“Fuck-up”? To me – it doesn’t carry the same connotation – although yes, it is a bad term, and vulgar – and shouldn’t be part of public discourse.
I don’t think … oh … anchormen should say, “So and so really fucked up today …” There’s a time and place for everything. Knowing your audience is VERY important.
oh..i am a definitely a pick-your-battle kind of fella’…or i would have been in serious trouble with the three teenage boys who hurled the beer bottle at me last week while waiting for the bus…but it still hurt..and someone is still teaching them that it is okay to yell fag and toss refuse at well dressed urban gentlemen..actually i was wearing sweats..but anyway…
I just re-read my last comment and want to make something clear:
It’s not JUST about the word itself. After all – the word “nigger” is everywhere in Huck Finn and it’s one of my favorite books.
And I’ve been around gay men who use the word “fag” with love, affection, and humor.
So – it’s about context. It really is. The context seems to be paramount here.
mitchell – Vicious little pricks.
JFH –
Good point about the dyslexic jokes – everyone’s sensibilities are different. For various reasons – upbringing, personality, context … Some blondes get outraged by blonde jokes. Other blondes tell the jokes themselves!
I would have copied the fuckers’ licence plate down, and pressed assault charges!!
(Was that in the right context, Sheila?)
JFH – hahahaha Yes! It is a PERFECT context.
oh..JFH..i called the cops…most assuredly I did!
what i wanted to do was yell out the equivalent ethnic slur back at them..but i value my health too much!!
Yeah, really.
A couple of thoughts:
first, I think PC has in many respects gone too far. I remember an incident when I had dressed up for an interview – dressed really well, much more nicely than I usually do – and one of my (male) colleagues came down the hall, looked at me, and said, “Wow, you look great today!”
he immediately recoiled in horror and APOLOGIZED. Later on, I found out that someone had just told him it was “oppressing” women to comment on how they looked. Faugh. If he had made some comment about my breasts or my butt or said something sexual, maybe, MAYBE I would have been offended. But “you look great”? Geez, I don’t hear that ENOUGH.
The way I do it? I try to look at people as individuals. I try to avoid doing anything that would hurt THAT INDIVIDUAL’S feelings. I don’t worry about talking about mountains to someone who grew up on the prairies because I do not think there is an individual out there who would feel hurt or disenfranchised by that. I treat people the way I’d like to be treated, which includes not using rude epithets about any race or ethnic or relgious group.
As for calling someone a fuck-up, I’d cringe (I don’t like the word and it’s actually kind of a big deal for me not to insert an asterisk there in place of the first vowel) but it’s not the same as calling them a f*g (and I WILL insert the asterisk there). You have a certain amount of control over being a fuck-up. You do not have control over your gender or sexual preference or ethnic group – and it’s not fair to insult someone on that basis. Not fair and not sporting.
That said, I have known people who just seemed to be “schlemiels” (spelling? Sorry!) – people who messed up all the time and it seemed to be bred into them. I’d kind of hesitate to call them a fuck-up then, because maybe it’s some kind of weird genetic mutation that they have no control over. But an otherwise competent person messing up? I’m gonna let ’em know. Maybe not so harshly, but I’m going to let them know their work’s not up to snuff – that’s another insidiousness of PC, in a lot of the schools you’re not allowed to criticize student’s work or give a failing grade when a failing grade’s deserved, and you get a generation of people who think everything they poop out is beautiful and perfect.
I really think if people were better at following the Golden Rule, we’d have no need for a PC police.
for that matter, as my dad says: one of the beauties of free speech is the assholes self-identify. If someone’s going around spouting hateful names for everyone in his radius, you gotta assume that he’s not exactly a happy secure sort who has a good opinion of himself. I like knowing who the jerks are so I can avoid them. Or give them back as good as I get, if it comes to that.
It really is all the Martians’ fault.
what i wanted to do was yell out the equivalent ethnic slur back at them..but i value my health too much!!
This is another problem I find with the PC culture. That some epithets somehow become more acceptable than others. Your example is apt.
Golden Rule sounds pretty good to me!
Mitchell –
No idea if you remember this – but I’ll give it a go: member when I was “dating” Rob M?
But anyway, I remember somehow we started talking (on our first date!!) about feminism, and how feminism has gone too far – and how making men constantly ashamed is stupid, doesn’t help ANYONE – but he KEPT (in his jokey hilarious way) trying to show me that he was evolved, and sensitive to women, by saying, “Hey – I read Backlash.”
Like he held open the door for me at the movie theatre – and I thanked him as I passed thru. He said, with this goopy “yeah, I know I’m a really cool guy” smile on his face, “I read Backlash.”
hahahahaha
I guess my point in telling that story is that we all could do with a bit more HUMOR in how we deal with these serious issues.
If I had gotten all fiery eyed and offended because he was making fun of Susan Faludi – or feminism – or whatever – that would have been no fun at all.
As it stood, we spend almost the entire date roaring about “Backlash” and we had a lot of fun.
As it stood, we spend almost the entire date roaring about “Backlash” and we had a lot of fun.
That was rather insensitive, dammit! I was chained to a post and beaten cruelly when I tried to gain my citizenship via military service!