The less said about last week’s episode the better. I am incapable of seeing it outside the context of what last week (and this week, and I’m sure next week and the next) was like, and so I’d rather not discuss it at all. Ever. I’m still pissed.
Moving on. Please.
Sheriff Jody.
Alice In Chains.
Mary giving us a good scare (both with the angel blade on Jody and with us thinking she might say yes to Billie).
Mary hunting after Dean was born.
Sam being able to grok that by reading the dates on the postcards… how exactly? And the logs not burning on the pyre at the end. And the uncool guy was named Elvis, WTF? But other than those silly things, a good, emotional episode.
Asa: saved by Mary, loved by Jody. Dude rocked.
It was a pretty solid episode from the new writer. Winchesters discussing bacon for breakfast while standing next to that pyre – a little dark humor that’s right up there with Sam warming his hands over the salt and burn victim back in s8.
Jody as audience surrogate is always so satisfying and grounding. Hugging Mary but still giving her the talk at the end. “That sucked.” Ha!
It was tense. Was sure we were going to lose Jody and Mary. Mary especially after that little bit of foreshadowing of blood dripping down from the body on the ceiling.
I was half afraid Dean was gonna volunteer to “help” Mary back to the afterlife. Sam was the one objecting, but Dean was very quiet thru the whole ‘you don’t belong here’ speech.
Dean had a “I brought you (back) into this world, and I can send you out of it if I want” vibe going on at that point.
Still with the parentification, only directed at Mary.
I really liked the Jody interactions as well. The chick flick scene was interesting especially with Dean saying “don’t tell her that.” It
It almost seemed to suggest that Dean has conflicting feelings towards Jodi – fellow hunter, friend, surrogate mom, potential hookup? If she was just a friend why would he care that she knows about his erotica anime fetishist?
Sort of unrelated, I was looking for a different word to use besides ‘foreshadow’ and the first choice in my thesaurus was ‘adumbrate’. I get the latin: ad+umbr+ate, but I have never encountered that word before. Anybody else casually dropping that one into their conversations?
Billie’s speech to Mary ADUMBRATED Mom’s eventual departure from the show. Ugh!
Come on, Mutecypher, let’s see if Mathman can do one better than the English Lit major…
I had an English Lit major comment that she’d never seen the words “polysemy” or “commingled” in a match.com profile before. I’ll have to see if I can work “adumbrated” into mine also.
How about a bad riddle?
Q:What sort of brate spells subtext without the S-E-X?
A: Adumbrate.
Please don’t throw things at your screen.
Rewatching and noticed another awkward interaction between Dean and Jodi. He is oddly interested in her “sweet, sweet” alone time with Asa then says, “Just don’t think of you in that way.” To which she replies, “Because that would honestly be weird.”
We may possibly have ourselves a Dean/Jodi adumbration! Does that make me a Dedi shipper?
Well, I am now.
The conflict about Jody knowing about Dean’s hobbies was fascinating to me because he had no problem talking porn and sex with Charlie. Jody is a friend too, but she’s more of a “mom” friend to him. Sam and Jody are the friends who exchange stupid calls and texts, and I’m sure that if the two of them were left alone to drink a few glasses of wine, they would compare notes about sex. She is probably the only one he could have that conversation with.
“Sex Is a Racket, and God’s Ball Is in Your Court.”
Yeah, that’s what I said below – we aren’t the same with everyone. What’s that Emerson quote: “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.” We aren’t consistent in every single second moment – we shift around according to the circumstance.
There are people who know what porn I watch, and people I would never share that with. Because they’re my boss. different relationships.
I always thought Sam and Jody would have made a good hookup!
// If she was just a friend why would he care that she knows about his erotica anime fetishist? //
Because that’s his own private business and he doesn’t have that kind of relationship with her. We don’t behave in identical ways with different people, even if they’re friends. There are certain friends I can talk about sex with in an X-rated way, other friends I can’t. Charlie would get it. Dean and Charlie probably watched that stuff together during various slumber parties. Jody is more of a Mom figure. He couldn’t believe that she was having this ongoing hookup thing with Asa because he doesn’t really see her that way.
And Sam throwing that information – telling Dean’s private business – was a Jujitsu Move. So bratty little brother.
Adumbrate – that’s a new one for me too! Let’s see if I can blow away my sixth graders with that tomorrow discussing “Where the Red Fern Grows” in lit circles. Just kidding. I’ll stick with “foreshadowing.”
Ha!! You never know – they may retain it once you explain it! They’ll have a leg up on all their peers!
I always think of the fact that Beatrix Potter’s Peter Rabbit (I think?) includes the word “soporific.”
I knew the meaning of that word from the age of 4 – thanks Beatrix!
I’m loving that it’s Sam that has these easy interactions with Mary whereas Dean is struggling so hard to reconcile the mom he knew with how she really is. I also think he is struggling so hard because it was so easy for her to say that stuff was overwhelming and she needed some space to think. Dean has never had the chance to get some space and think ever. He has never had a chance to think on his own because he had two roles growing up: John’s little soldier and Sam’s caretaker. It’s just recently he’s started to come to terms with himself outside those two roles and learning about who he really is. And also that scene with Jody seriously made me choke up. I love Jody.
Jody was so wonderful in that scene. Kim Rhodes is a beautiful actress. And Dean had that look where you can tell he is quickly scuttling away internally from the warm openness of her offer – he just can’t deal with it.
// Dean has never had the chance to get some space and think ever. //
So true.
and now what do we have? A little brother constantly saying, “Dean, talk about your feelings.” This reminds me of Everybody Hates a Clown. They have that dynamic – there’s some good stuff there –
The exchange in the previous week’s episode – which I promised I would never reference again – about sublimation. I felt like cheering. (I’m on Dean’s side in that one.)
An acting teacher of mine said once, “I’m a great fan of sublimation. You take your pain and you make it sublime.” Of course he was talking about art – but it could apply elsewhere too. And of course Dean’s sublimation makes him do crazy shit so Sam is right to be concerned.
I’m a little tired of this kind of “battle” between the brothers though. I’d like something a bit more complex.
Jill, love your insights on this! Sam has it easier: Mary’s always only been an idea to him (as he said in season one). She was real to Dean. She was in his heaven, seen through the innocent, worshipful eyes of a four-year-old. And, yeah, Dean hasn’t had time or space. He’s always sacrificed his wishes . . . and himself. So to see his mom put herself and her needs first is really hard for him.
I saw things a bit differently. Not that I disagree with what you said. But To me, he is stunned. He wanted to protect her, then leaned over backwards trying to accept her adult to adult. Just as it seemed as if they were working things out, she walks out on them. He is battling feelings of being abandoned by choice.
It seemed to me that Dean was really caught, gut hooked, from the time of Mary’s death. Forced into 3 parts, being John’s son, typical older sib/designated sib trainer, and at times mother surrogate to Sam. This viewpoint is my opinion and grew mostly from the episodes with childhood/teen flashbacks.
Jody, is one of my favorite characters no matter what season. She is an adult friend who lost her child, so a kind of mirror reflection of Dean. Yet, she also has taken both Dean and Sam into her heart. So in some ways she has a reflected version of Mary’s relationship with them.
For awhile I thought Amara’s gift of his mother (“what he needed most”) was strange in that he has wished for her all these years. Amara being the darkness, it seemed Too Kind. It turns out to be BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR.
Very solid episode last night! Hunters gathering for the wake of a fellow hunter was fascinating to me. I loved that they mentioned Ellen.
The scene with Sam and his mom standing together over the body and the blood driping down gave me chills. The history of that moment was deep and then Billie showing up later? Chills again.
Loved Jodi as always. The conversations she had with both Dean and Mary were both great.
I think Mary’s absence, struggle, and hesitation to return have been handled well. I wondered when she left with the journal if she might not have been following a bit of John’s past and history…trying to reconcile the husband she remembered with the man in that journal.
Feels like the groundwork for some pretty deep stuff is being lauded. Looking forward to seeing where it goes. Still got those chills though. Deans words….”We know how this all ends.”
Ummm feels like the groundwork for some deep stuff is being laid…not lauded. That’s what I get for typing a post on my phone.
I have really enjoyed Mary’s journey as well. And it’s fascinating to watch both brothers react to her monologue about what she’s been doing and where she’s gone. AND that she would not return their text masses and then show up to the wake of some hunter. !!!
It makes total sense. Both sides. Why she would feel more comfortable going to that wake than hanging out with her sons.
It’s just so AWKWARD – these three adult family members standing around and not knowing how to adjust their relationships – or – even begin to CREATE a relationship. That aspect of it feels really realistic to me.
I was pretty satisfied with this episode – great brother interaction and angsty Dean being focused on saving his family. Jody was a enjoyable bonus. I was really nervous that Mary was going to leave with Billie and I was hurting with Dean. Kudos to the writer and director.
One thing that always bothers me is when Dean goes into his speech about how a Hunters life ends bloody. It’s true, but it’s such a 180 turn from how Dean is portrayed as this fun-loving guy who enjoys his family, food, his car, hunting, etc. Then he gets so serious and utters the morbid thought always lurking in the back of his mind. It always jars me.
In this episode, he drops the statement so casually into conversations and it stops Sam in his tracks. Sam, who has seen Dean so low, and to hear Dean almost sounds wistful — he almost seems to be looking forward to the day he gets taken out by some monster. It’s quite a bitter pill.
// t’s true, but it’s such a 180 turn from how Dean is portrayed as this fun-loving guy who enjoys his family, food, his car, hunting, etc. Then he gets so serious and utters the morbid thought always lurking in the back of his mind. //
I think back to Season 1, to Shadow – that big scene in the motel room when Sam asks Dean what he wants to do when this is “all over.” Hard to believe Sam was ever that innocent. It’s such a great scene. For Dean, it will never be over. The miracle is that he has any enjoyment left of anything at all.
That’s one of the reasons why the whole retirement-home episode was so interesting – outside of the fact that it was also an awesome hour of television. The conversations about possibly growing old – or not – and Dean actually considering the cool-ness of the retirement home and Sam saving the flier …
It seemed to be a way that the show was acknowledging that these guys aren’t mid-20s anymore. I mean, the actors themselves – as well as the characters. They do not live in some timeless loop – they are getting older. Will they soon outlive their father? They are now both older than their mother was when she died. They don’t talk about these things – ever – so when they do, it makes sense that Dean would revert back to the familiar. You can’t make PLANS as a hunter. The only guarantee is that you die in the line of duty. Anything else – any other dream – would seem extremely threatening, scary … you couldn’t believe in it, or it would break your heart (as happened with Sam and Jess.)
I really like those moments, too, when Sam realizes the depths of Dean’s pessimism in that regard. Although there have been some flip-flops – which are also interesting.
Give me more flip-flops!!
//Dean goes into his speech about how a Hunters life ends bloody. It’s true, but it’s such a 180//
Also a switch from last season’s vibe that Dean was beginning to see a way out – Banshee/retirement home episode, Chitters hunters retiring to the horse farm, even Red Meat defying Billie/death. They made a big point of saying that Dean had cheated death several times, “It didn’t take” and clearly Billie was talking as much to Dean as to Mary.
Can we just talk a minute about the witch twins? WITCH TWINS. Now this is what we need a spin-off about.
Yes!! Loved the witch twins.
I think episodes like this help me to understand how critical the way the show was shot in early seasons was to creating an atmosphere of queasiness and danger. Despite the many lovely things it contained (couch times!) there was something about this episode that bugs at me, that I can’t quite articulate. The artificial blocking of that final scene didn’t help. There was something that felt, to me…light and inconsequential about this episode, when episodes about possession ought to be grosser, messier, ought to toll like a bell.
This season is calling on history so stridently, but without the delicate taps of nostalgia or direct punches to the gut we saw last season. It feels more like references than resonances, perhaps because Sam remains, on the surface, apparently completely unaffected by his experiences except to double down on being everyone’s counselor. Like Sam has finally become the parody of himself from Dean’s Tall Tales description. All he does is Acknowledge Your Pain.
Now I believe this is unsustainable and that the show intends to address it. I think the signs are there. But it makes for straaaange going right now…so strange that it is that that delivers the uncanniness I expect from the show.
I was particularly struck by the kumbaya circle of hunters, none of whom really felt real to me. Is this what we’re supposed to be contrasting to the BMoL? I kept waiting for there to be risk in that environment. This is why Kripke burned down the roadhouse. I don’t watch the show for its therapy sessions.
Maybe I don’t really know what I want — maybe I just want it them against the world; that is Quite Likely. Probably I need to watch it again. Mostly I return to the thought that blowing smoke up Sam’s ass is MY job, not the show’s.
So hmmm. An episode I quite liked and feel a lot of potential in but still feel hmmmm about.
//I was particularly struck by the kumbaya circle of hunters, none of whom really felt real to me.//
They were kind of OK until it was time to hunt. They seemed pretty incompetent, really.
hahaha They really did.
They were so…..LIMP. there was no shape to them.
where were my Gordons? Where were my Kubricks? I liked Elvis because he was a fucking weirdo at least, albeit completely unengaged with. These people have very good reason to have very strong reactions to Sam and Dean. Their friends would have died because of them. I got no outsider perspective of Sam and Dean that felt real or relevant to my understanding of these two. Having Jody say they’re the best men she’s ever met…like…gag me with a spoon, honestly.
I think what I’m feeling is lacking in this episode in particular was any sense of the epic or of myth, which is one of my favorite ways in which the show functions. Perhaps because this season appears to be about the negotiation of domestic emotions that relate entirely to the Winchester dynamic and history and not to larger themes of bodies, blood, corruption, personhood, duty, sacrifice, singularity. Mmmmm that’s not a completely accurate characterisation but it’s in the ballpark wrt my feelings at least.
// where were my Gordons? Where were my Kubricks? //
I know. It’s a bit of an ominous sign, actually … You know how we always talk about the transformation of angels into bureaucratic AMWAY representatives? And Men of Letters into a corporate board meeting? And demons into distinctly unfrightening non-entities?
A disappointment all around. Are hunters the next ones to go through that transformation? Hunter chapter meetings? Where someone reads the minutes?
I’m exaggerating. But still. Hunters are WEIRD. The show has this really strange propensity towards conformity … I’m not sure how that operates but it appears to be an irresistible pull for some reason.
This is one of the reasons why I think the bunker needs to go. We’ve had enough. Time to shake things up again – the scenes there are just a little bit too complacent now. It’s too much a realm of safety. with bottles of milk and take-out pizza. The bunker served its purpose.
Shaking things up – and expelling them from their little zone of safety – obliterating the sense of safety altogether – would be a very good thing.
This is one of the reasons why I think the bunker needs to go.
I didn’t realise how much I wanted this until you said it! I think it might have been Helena who said ages ago that the show is often at its most successful when it takes things away from them — as Mary so far this season shows. I don’t know, the bunker still has a lot of potential in terms of storylines, it still has potential in terms of theme and arc, but they’re not engaging with it as anything past “place to start and finish episode” now.
KEEP HUNTERS WEIRD — let’s get it on a t-shirt! But yes — the picture of hunters in this episode is a real danger — I see it in the way magic is used now too, with the advent of Rowena and things like the male witch this episode waving his hand and the sigils come up. It’s too easy and too intangible, too ungrounded, has no cost. Sam used to have to drink demon blood for that kind of power.
// they’re not engaging with it as anything past “place to start and finish episode” now. //
Exactly. It’s driving me crazy.
They need to get back in that impala, and have their conversations as they float through the night landscape. Without a home base like that – and nice flannel robes and night lamps – maybe there will be possibilities again for other stuff – emotional stuff – to come back up.
As “Baby” showed last season – a re-devotion to one of the elements of the show that sets it apart.
The car helps the characters not be COMPLACENT. They’re floating out there in the night, unconnected to anything except each other.
I’m sure there will be some battle royale between the Men of Letters who want that bunker – so maybe Mr. Ketch (who cares) will win … and the brothers will be homeless again. Maybe? Please?
// I see it in the way magic is used now too, with the advent of Rowena and things like the male witch this episode waving his hand and the sigils come up. It’s too easy and too intangible, too ungrounded, has no cost. Sam used to have to drink demon blood for that kind of power.
//
Really really good point.
This is the Drive towards the Prosaic and the Organized that the show seems irresistibly drawn to – like a magnet. They have to WORK to resist. More disturbing though is to imagine that they are not aware of this.
Is the writing staff made up of middle-class kids with nice neat MFA diplomas?
Sorry. That was mean.
But eccentricity is one of the hallmarks of this show … and real uningratiating eccentricity (Gordon. Bela. Bobby.) – not this “Hey lookee here I have a superpower” eccentricity …
I don’t know.
I love the bunker and what it represents. But it’s helping to create this vibe we’re sensing. The robe and slippers and cereal vibe – it’s lasted long enough!
// I got no outsider perspective of Sam and Dean that felt real or relevant to my understanding of these two. Having Jody say they’re the best men she’s ever met…like…gag me with a spoon, honestly. //
Yeah, what the hell was THAT.
There could have been so much exploration of the TENSION in the group when those guys walked in – not just have Sam and Dean be “celebrities”. EW.
Hunters are a conservative group. They lay low, they try to fly under the radar … all things that Sam and Dean have not done, and the mistakes Sam and Dean have made have been catastrophic.
Making that a nice little house party – albeit with a Harley Davidson atmosphere – as opposed to an opportunity to explore and represent the view of Sam and Dean in that world – and the conflicting feelings that there must be in that small subculture towards two guys like this – reckless, the sons of a reckless man – who have made more unpopular decisions than all of them put together …
It’s not even SPN-Lite. It’s something else altogether.
// Perhaps because this season appears to be about the negotiation of domestic emotions that relate entirely to the Winchester dynamic and history and not to larger themes of bodies, blood, corruption, personhood, duty, sacrifice, singularity. //
That’s a good point.
And the relationship of Sam and Dean – as it stands now – is on autopilot. It’s fill-in-the-blanks. More should be going on between them. They’re probably saving it up for later … but again, like I mentioned elsewhere – I’m re-watching Season 7, and those early episodes are filled with GREAT “brothers” stuff. As a matter of fact, it’s the whole point. Leviathan Shmviathan.
So there’s something “off” there – especially, as you mention, that this domestic history stuff tends to erase Sam entirely.
And the relationship of Sam and Dean – as it stands now – is on autopilot.
Hmm. I agree, and I think think this feeling comes from the weirdness of Sam at the moment and the one-sidedness of their conversations. Which is not to say I want them to be on the outs or taking these stresses out on each other — just more richness in their interactions would be nice. And, you know, the couch interlude this episode reminded me of the one in Death’s Door — I liked it a lot. “Buzzed hunting comedown” isn’t something we’ve seen a lot of. More things we haven’t seen a lot of, please! Say…..ankles!
// Which is not to say I want them to be on the outs or taking these stresses out on each other — just more richness in their interactions would be nice. //
I so agree with this. Season 11 was great in that it showed the show could survive without the brothers being at odds or in conflict. Instead we got all this rich stuff – complex stuff – they both had come through so much and were left in this state where they seemed to be able to actually BE with each other. It was amazing. And in that calm-er space came other things – Sam wanting to apologize again for the Purgatory snafu, etc. These were deep moments with long long continuity behind it.
I already feel like we’ve had some really terrible missed opportunities for that type of exchange in terms of Mary coming back. Instead we get Tall Tales Sam. I’m actually getting pissed off the more I think about it.
Come on, Sheila, we don’t have time for your blah blah, blah blah BLAH BLAAAAH.
hahahahahaha
I just need someone to “acknowledge my pain”.
Oh, Sheila !
It’s too much. Look at both their faces.
… can’t stop laughing.
I love that Sam looks at the sky, like “God is my witness!” Freaking love this episode.
//Like Sam has finally become the parody of himself from Dean’s Tall Tales description. All he does is Acknowledge Your Pain.// Ouch. But so true.
// help me to understand how critical the way the show was shot in early seasons was to creating an atmosphere of queasiness and danger. //
Jessie – I left my comment below before reading everyone else’s – this was exactly what I was trying to get at. If you prioritize the underbelly – the subtext – in how you shoot it – then it does half the work for you. Otherwise, you get just your regular standard hour of TV, and it’s left to the audience to “read into” everything. Which is fine, we’ll do it anyway – but how glorious is it to go back and watch episodes DRENCHED in mood and shadows? The shadows conceal everything: the past, happiness itself, possibility, everything good … this is NOT the normal world, and the style of the series early on drove that home with a sledge-hammer. It’s harder now to “get” that.
Yes, it is definitely harder to “get that”, I agree 100%.
The closer this show gets to treating its visual field like an episode of Vampire Diaries or Law and Order the more in trouble it is.
These characters just don’t work like that.
// The closer this show gets to treating its visual field like an episode of Vampire Diaries or Law and Order the more in trouble it is. //
Totally agreed.
// It feels more like references than resonances, perhaps because Sam remains, on the surface, apparently completely unaffected by his experiences except to double down on being everyone’s counselor. Like Sam has finally become the parody of himself from Dean’s Tall Tales description. All he does is Acknowledge Your Pain. //
Oh shit.
You’re right.
That’s what is happening.
// This is why Kripke burned down the roadhouse. I don’t watch the show for its therapy sessions. //
I felt the same way. If hunters congregate as though it’s a Harley Davidson’s chapter meeting … the show loses much of its tension, as well as its focus on Sam and Dean and their Sick Bell Jar – which we need more of: that queasy Bell Jar. Playthings. Alexis Annie. Twihard.
You need to really know what you’re going after though to create episodes like that – and I’m not sure that’s the case right now.
I, too, feel hopeful that Sam is going to get some depth – although how disappointing that I even have to say that. Showing flashbacks to every single horrible loss he has ever withstood in his life was a good sign.
Does nobody on that writing staff know how to write Sam anymore?
A HD chapter meeting, ha ha! Yes! This is exactly what I was trying to say in response to Lyrie above.
Yes, the conflicting signs with respect to Sam’s emotions and arc have me all over the place! A lot of is going to be dependent on the payoff and if they screw the pooch like last year I don’t know how the show could get back from that. I’ll have no convenient extratextual excuses to justify such a misstep!
// A lot of is going to be dependent on the payoff //
Yes.
Sam being tortured for two episodes opens this season. Huge devotion to that, and to his experiences hallucinating through his Greatest Hits of Horror.
Let’s get INTO that, dammit. What are Sam’s thoughts on that? Or is he too busy being “I feel your pain, let’s talk it out” to his brother? And if he IS too busy doing that – then doesn’t he experience frustration that once again Dean’s psycho-drama is not allowing him HIS experience?
I want that kind of stuff. SPN is usually all ABOUT that kind of stuff.
I think a lot of our frustration is due to the fact that we feel burned – and BAD – by the end of last season.
Finally Canada gets to be Canada! (Of course, every Canadian boy has a mountie, a moose and the picture of a hockey player in his room.)
Does anybody know what car is Mary driving? I kinda NEED to know.
“Oh my God, how are we going to know who’s possessed?” How about you say “Cristo?” I’m sorry, I know we’re supposed to forget that’s in Phantom Traveler, but I actually haven’t forgotten. (and, okay, I might have muttered it in the presence of some people, because that would have explained a few things.)
At least, Dean has learnt an exorcism by heart since Sin City.
That episode was filled with good stuff. I’m heartbroken for Mary. She does not want to be here. She doesn’t belong. Poor woman. Poor boys.
The Christo thing bugged me as well! And the lack of improvisational skills re: water! No toilet cisterns? No hot water tank? No soda for mixers?!
In the grand scheme of things I’d rather they remember emotional and personal continuity over spell or magic continuity. But little obvious things like that bug, especially because we want our heroes to be competent.
(I was going to rant about demons being able to get inside devils traps — because that’s, you know, how you trap them — but I think Dean’s plan was that it wouldn’t choose to come in because then it wouldn’t be able to get out. Despite the fact that a trap made out of ash seems a little susceptible to things like people getting thrown around)
// I’m heartbroken for Mary. She does not want to be here. She doesn’t belong. Poor woman. Poor boys. //
Me too – you can see the look on her face when she knows what she’s doing to them, but she just can’t change course. It’s not right for her yet.
I think Mary’s car was a 73 Chevy Camaro. Many of those had the racing stripe hoods. So, was this her car at home?
As the mother of an adult daughter old enough to be their older sister, hope this isn’t too much projection. We always had a fairly easy time communicating was my memory during her preteen years. Be patient please, I’m trying to get to the point.
Our interactions now sometimes take on a walking on eggs feeling. Mary didn’t have the luxury of changing concurrently with Sam and Dean. So she does have mental, and emotional stuff to sort through. Sam is experiencing a sort of infancy/toddler time that they didn’t get to have. That is perhaps why it seems easier for them. It won’t last, and I even had the thought Dean was making a conscious effort to give them space. Which made the bomb Mary dropped all the harder to accept. Blindsided!
Random thoughts:
– I liked the Witch Twins too.
– Worst fake beard ever in the teaser.
– Always lovely to see Sheriff Jody. And how delightful that the girls are finally bonding over Radiohead. Or maybe that’s just what they’re telling Jodie.
– Finally the lovely Billie returns with some kind of purpose.
– A missed opportunity for Dean to demonstrate his extensive knowledge of rom coms.
– What with the new Gilmore Girls coming up soon Sam risks falling down some hole in the space-time continuum next time he turns on Netflix.
– Was it just me or did it turn into The Crucible at the end?
– //Finally Canada gets to be Canada!// I know, finally! Disappointed no actual Mounties, just a model – clearly all the budget went on fake Canadian beards. Do they not have real ones in Canada?
– //No soda for mixers?!// now, get real – soda??
– Dean sort of getting on better socially with other men these days; not sure how I feel about this
– all the mums in the room;
– Mary looking knackered and dishevelled like she’s not wearing the right size clothes and slept in the car and her hair’s still all different lengths – she’s just passing through and everything is temporary;
– SPN maintaining its tradition of horrible plaid shirts. (If anyone can remember when a henley was last spotted in the wild on SPN let me know. I will gif it and mount it in a glass case to share it with you all.);
– Sherriff Jody’s saggy tracksuit bottoms;
– um, reminded me of the earworm episode, ie a bunch of hunters together and something possessing each of them in turn. But that was both really gross and really funny and this time round I was just a bit confused about who was who and what was what and why exactly I should care.
– that’s really enough about Hitler already
//the earworm episode,// by which I mean the one in Season 6 in the cannery with Rufus and Bobby and Grandpaw Samuel
The Khan Worm in And Then There Were None. Another episode where DOORS came between Sam and Dean and there was much angst. Demons and monsters they can deal with, but DOORS, oh the horror!
I know, jeezlouise, DOORS!!! Not even Dad could get around doors.
You’d think they’d have come up with a spell by now, or just carry an axe around or something. But no.
Goddam doors.
Now I’m having a PTSD flashback to the photos we saw yesterday involving a door.
The image of Alex and Claire at a Radiohead concert is so hilarious to me.
// Dean sort of getting on better socially with other men these days; not sure how I feel about this //
But he was so awkward in that kitchen!! My favorite part! They were all admiring him at first – and then they all had that In joke about wendigos and he looked like … a paranoid adolescent who thinks everyone is laughing at them. He didn’t “get the joke” and he was trying to seem cool with it, but he felt left out.
// all the mums in the room; //
Yes, that was very good – and each one was so different – and not ONE was a sentimentalized Mother Figure.
I am glad that SPN is not going to sentimental route with Mary. You know? The sentiment was in the brothers’ memories, and of course that’s totally understandable. The shock of reality has been very tough for them – but I’m grateful that they’ve gone this way.
// But that was both really gross and really funny and this time round I was just a bit confused about who was who and what was what and why exactly I should care. //
The worms coming out of people’s ears is an image I could very well live without. And I’m not sure what Billie was doing there – although it was good to see her, and that dame knows how to do a line-reading!
and yeah, enough with Hitler. Can we please pretend the Hitler episode never happened? That’s my site’s policy, as of last week, so I would appreciate everyone’s cooperation.
now, get real – soda??
Maybe I’m the only person here who has 8 litres of soda water on hand at all times?
There were some things I liked – even loved – and other things I wasn’t as crazy about.
I loved Asa’s mother. I loved the actress, I loved her huge sunglasses, I loved her drinking. That was a three-dimensional real person – who seemed to emerge from a very real place – unlike a lot of the other actors in this episode. She was bizarre – and human – and I enjoyed getting to “meet” her – because I didn’t know what she would do/say next.
I was fascinated by the final scene when Dean asks Mary to go out for breakfast. What I found so fascinating was that there was actually a sense of proper adult boundaries in that scene – which is why it was so awkward and weird – and felt … almost wrong. But it felt “wrong” only because we live in the Winchester Bell Jar where no one has any boundaries. What was going on there felt like grown-up time. It’s maybe not as interesting as torment – and I’m sure there will be more torment later on – but I liked that they went there. That Mary is asserting boundaries and her sons – of course are having trouble with it – but are also trying to adjust. Awkward all around, but it felt complex and human. Nobody knows what the HELL they are doing. That’s why it feels real.
The witch twins were fantastic.
Sam outing Dean’s anime/mange fetish was totally dirty pool. I loved how interested Jody was, though. Like: “TELL ME MORE.” I think they missed an opportunity there, though. Dean totally engrossed, welling up with tears at the romantic ending, and then trying to snap back and pretend he thinks it sucks to save face. He loves Dr. Sexy, Spanish soap operas, Titanic … They need to keep their eye on the ball with stuff like this – and not let it descend into a cliche. “Chick flicks” were the words in the pilot, but every single thing we have learned about Dean after the pilot has been a dismantling of that disdain for “chick flicks.” So him scoffing at “chick flicks” felt like it was a line coming from another less interesting character. The show is better than that.
I’m not sure I completely buy the happy-yahoo hunter community – which somehow Sam and Dean have never encountered. I don’t know. Maybe it’s a Manitoba thing.
Excuse me, but one of the hunters was named Elvis. Just pointing that out.
There’s something about … I guess what I’m missing is the devotion to subtext. JA and JP are playing it – but it’s not prioritized in the filming, framing, any of it. There were some great moments where JA couldn’t look at Mary, and JP was trying to deal with that and with himself – and it was rich stuff – but it was treated almost CASUALLY in how it was filmed. In my opinion – without a Big Bad – and who gives a shit about Mr. Ketch, I sure don’t – the ONLY thing that matters in this scenario is what the brothers are going through. The plot is just the flimsy architecture for the guts of the show – which is the brothers. This is always true but it’s especially true now since there isn’t some overwhelming Villainous Arc taking up a lot of time.
And so in the last couple of episodes – and I won’t be discussing the episode before this one because fuck that episode – the lANGUAGE has been very prominent, connecting the case to their experience – like, saying it outright – in a way that feels very ABC Afterschool-y – as opposed to finding subtler ways to handle it. (See “Alex Alexis” for the best example of this.) When you do it THAT way, the Alex Alexis way, you allow yourself to get into some truly fucked-up shit – which is what this show needs – not pablum about families needing time apart, spoken straight out in the language.
So I’m frustrated with that and like I’m frustrated with Sam being semi-okay with it – although he always had better boundaries than Dean AND he never knew his mother in the first place. He may be happy to just take what he can get since he has zero memories of her. It’s not required that the brothers have identical experiences to things. But I would like to see more exploration of Sam’s response to all of this – outside of him trying to reason with Dean. Boring. And yet again – like end of last season – selling Sam short.
I realize it’s early and the first episodes give me hope that we are going to have some very deep Sam Stuff this season – which I hope so – because, last season set Sam up so promisingly, and then ended with Sam saying to God, “Why are planets round?” as though his entire life had suddenly vanished from his own DNA. This is the problem with the Dean-focused fan base and the Dean-focus in general. This is not the Dean Show. Without a strong Sam with his own shit going on, the show cannot exist. Or at least it doesn’t exist in a satisfying way for me. I’m re-watching Season 6 and that’s such a pure example of giving both characters equal weight – equal shit to deal with – in totally un-ideal circumstances – where neither one wants to deal with what the other one is going through. Dean is a scene-stealer, I get it, and his emotions suck the oxygen out of any room. It’s a thing. But there’s no reason that the show can’t let us into Sam’s complexity of reactions to Mom going away – I’m talking about the last 2 episodes. He flinched when that door closed. Let us see more of what’s happening with this man – this motherless man.
If we keep having repeat conversations of Sam being all lovely and adult and understanding trying to talk Dean down about Mom going away … we’ve had two nearly word for word repeats of it – then what the hell are we doing watching? Come ON.
Right now, Mary is one of the most interesting ones onscreen, and I am excited whenever she appears. I haven’t been commenting on my own posts for a couple weeks now because i’ve been too busy – but the opening episodes of this season were very strong (although I don’t give a shit about the Men of Letters or Mr. Ketch. Whatever, I didn’t care about the Leviathan either and I enjoyed that season). And the Mary stuff was very very strong. Kim Manners: “Give the audience what they want but give it to them in a way they don’t expect.” Those who expected tearful reunions or tearful recriminations may have been disappointed, but they don’t know what’s best for the show. They want only what they expect. The way it WENT has some complexity to it – and the reactions have been complex (Dean staring at childhood photos in the kitchen – brillllllllliant). I am still seeing that complexity – and I am definitely seeing the “roles” the brothers have in the family, yanking into place, even though they’re so much older now and have come so far. Dean texting his mother was heartbreaking. Made so much sense. The uncertainty of it, the inability to let her go (and who can blame him?), and the susceptibility he has to … everything. Sam, in a very different kind of whirlwind, treated his mother with this almost formal politeness – he didn’t know what to do, who to be – he had never met her before … JP’s work was so good in the “Mom’s home” episodes – in the kitchen, he turned to her with this bright polite smile – and he was so distant from her – the way he held back in the doorway after he gave her tea – he just couldn’t deal, didn’t know how to handle it. Beautiful all around.
I’m feeling some awkwardness in execution. They’re trying to “hit all the right notes” – but they don’t seem to really have the TUNE. Not yet. It’s a bit worrisome, actually.
//Sam being all lovely and adult and understanding trying to talk Dean down about Mom going away// I was so grateful to see some of this, Sam assuming the peacemaker role, the little brother trying to keep everyone happy, the motherless son so happy to have Mary there. But Sam throwing himself into a happy and peaceful therapist role for everyone across multiple epsiodes seems to be a deflection, a disconnect. After everything – the whole Lucifer situation, dealing with God, thinking his brother was dead, being tortured by BMoL – where is his messiness and anger?
Especially with everyone reminding him of that “Lucifer thing,” lately, you know?
Definitely!
I think that yes, a little bit of this goes a long way – Sam wouldn’t have an identical reaction to Mary’s return as Dean – and his head might be a little bit clearer, just because he doesn’t have those memories of her.
I’m re-watching Season 7 now and there are just some GREAT conflict scenes with the brothers – and we don’t have to wait all season to get them – they’re right up front, it’s part of the Arc, that conflict – and I guess I want more of that. Always. Not like it’s not great when they communicate well too – but some ENGAGEMENT. We haven’t seen that. Just a couple of quick chats (identically written) over the hood of the Impala.
//Sam assuming the peacemaker role// Your writing that jumped out at me because, growing up, Dean was the peace-maker between his dad and Sam (and does his trying to comfort his mother that we see in Dark Side of the Moon identify him as a peacemaker with John and Mary?), but now Sam is a peacemaker between Dean and Mary. Interesting.
Yes! I wish they would make more of that. I wish they would connect those dots – so we can see the flip-flop and role reversal at work. I’m not asking to be spoonfed stuff – I just feel like what’s happening right now is that JA and JP are doing ALL of the heavy lifting with the depth of these circumstances, and there’s only so much they can do.
//So him scoffing at “chick flicks” felt like it was a line coming from another less interesting character. //
Dean is in a lot of conflict, and I took his dismissive comment as something akin to projection – there’s probably a better psychological term for it. “You don’t go in for that unrealistic, happy relationship stuff, do you?” Dean longs for happy endings (not just the Thai massage kind – or the erotic anime kind) but doesn’t expect one for himself. As he reiterated later in the episode. And I thought Jody clocked him on it with the “are you?” comeback about being a rom-com person. So I didn’t see it as a poor job of writing, but as a guy in a bad place being a bit of a jerk about things that he’s telling himself will never happen for him.
In this small way, Dean is like Toulouse in Moulin Rouge, “I know about art and love… if only because I long for it with every fiber of my being.” But at that point he was pushing against anything that suggests the possibility of long term contentment for Dean Winchester, to tamp down on the deep longing he has for it.
Getting bacon with Mary is a bit of a turning back from that rejection. His older “live fast, die young, have an eviscerated corpse” ethos is at war with a more mature ethos trying to emerge. Growing up is hard.
Or at least, that’s my take.
And I really enjoyed the obnoxiousness of Alice In Chain’s “Man In The Box” being the song played as they rolled up to the wake.
Very well put, totally agree.
I didn’t say it was poor writing – just obvious – and it lacked that spark of individuality that I come to rely on in SPN.
SPN is best when it doesn’t stay on target so rigidly. The whole scene felt like a set up.
The way it was played was: “Hey, Jody, I thought you were cool and tough – you like this stuff?” (This is the “cool girl” thing so brilliantly laid out by Gillian Flynn in Gone Girl.) and then she turned it around on him. That’s all fine. And potentially very interesting – and I see in it all the potential you see. Or – I sense the potential was THERE, I just didn’t see it in the execution like you did. But all of that potential: how much better would it have been if Jody had busted him getting all caught up in the end of that movie? If he was practically in tears as the credits started to roll, and Sam laughed at him about it, and he got pissed off and defensive and turned it on Jody? Much better. Also way more entertaining.
I felt like it was a very “workmanlike” scene and there not to show us character, but to set us up for what came later. Dean has preconceived notions about Jody. which is interesting, sure – and goes along with how their relationship is set up – she’s not a sexual being to him, he doesn’t see her that way. And this then leads directly into the new information that she’s been having a romance with a hunter and Dean’s surprise about that.
So it all felt very literal, or maybe utilitarian is the better word : Jody chose a chick flick because something had been activated in her by her romance with Asa – yearning, need, love, whatever. Dean made fun of the movie choice. 2 seconds later Jody gets the news that Asa died. And so in light of that new information: the whole thing -chick flick, Dean’s comment, Jody’s reaction – felt like a “set up” for the Asa-dying plot-point, and we don’t even know Asa, nor do we care about him.
There’s nothing wrong with any of this in and of itself. But it felt very fill-in-blanks, paint-by-numbers, and plot-driven, as opposed to character-driven. SPN is best when it stays somewhat loosey-goosey in the character stuff – letting moments be random – letting things exist that don’t have to do with anything else.
That whole exchange about the chick flicks was just a set-up for the fact that Jody had been having a love affair – as opposed to just being an opportunity to have a little moment of conversation where character is revealed.
I think one of my favorite parts of the episode in terms of behavior was how uncomfortable Dean was in that kitchen full of hunters.
He was doing some very rich detailed behavioral stuff there.
I’m not sure where in this thread I should put this, but, yes, that kitchen full of hunters….My first thought, when Elvis asked if Sam was there and then he took off, I thought he might be one of the hunters that shot Sam and Dean lo those many years ago. Then I thought , no, because he wouldn’t have talked to Dean either, so I thought he was running because Sam would come after him for something that happened maybe when Sam was soulless. Instead, he goes and basically wants an autograph. I think they missed an opportunity there!
I remember on one of the season CD’s Sara Gamble talking about Kripke and Edlund telling her to make every scene have bite (I’m paraphrasing because I don’t recall the direct quote). The point being they encouraged digging deeper into every scene to get the most out of it and that seems to be missing.
And, really, all those hunters should have been totally on the ball. If the writers needed it to go the way it did, they could have had a stand-off, like – you Winchesters are so good,- what would you do? And drunk Dean going “ah,shit”, but coming up with something.
The shows seem a little rushed, like they’re just trying to hit their beats and get through the season. I’ll watch because I want to see how it ends, but I have to change my expectations from the earlier seasons.
Loved that they finally had a show set in Canada too. About time.
Mary and Jody hanging out a bit, awesome.
Mary’s car looked like a Camaro to me, but not really a car person. Back when she saved the kid.
Given that both of the boys have died and returned, any talks about that with Mary seem appropriate. She is exhibiting some Buffy remorse at returning to life, but not at coming back “wrong.” So there is that. And for Sam she was just a story, not a memory. Dean has the emotional bond and need.
Enjoyable, not perfect. I don’t need perfect.
I loved how Jody was overjoyed when she learned who Mary was – gasping and squealing – until it finally petered out when she realized nobody else was looking all that joyful.
She’s such a great character. And I loved how she brought up her son/husband, too. And how she connected that to Dean – especially since here she is, mourning the loss of a glorified fuck-buddy (whom she secretly wanted to build a life with) … and how would her slain family members “see” her now? Would they all not recognize one another anymore? I thought that was a good way to connect Jody with her past (we need more of those connections – especially in such a lengthy series) – and also a really good way to connect with what Dean was experiencing.
I don’t know what I think about this season, so far. I’m loving everything that has to do with Mary. But I think it’s the only thing I like, like the rest is a bit empty, somehow – haven’t found a better to put it yet.
I mean, cars and motorcycle, sure, but that’s a bit thin, even for me.:)
I would have to agree. With the exception of The Foundry, which was a total standout, this season is feeling kind of SPN-lite. There were definitely things I liked about this episode – anytime Jody shows up is good, and Jody and Mary meeting was great – but plot-wise, these episodes seem kind of fun but forgettable. And I still want the British MoL to just go away.
My comment was not so much about plot – although I totally see how that might seem lacking for some people. I’m not very plot-oriented (when plots get too complex, I don’t even understand them. I don’t even try.)
But for instance, no particular scene between the two brothers really stands out in my mind. No secondary character really marked me either. And when they related to the Winchester family, it sometimes seemed… Clunky? I mean, I’ve enjoyed some isolated things, for sure, but I’m not feeling very involved, honestly. And given what the rest of the show has made me feel, it’s a bit sad. I don’t know. Maybe it’s just me. Maybe it’s just a phase.
Ugh. I realize i’ve been very negative since the beginning of the season (since the end of last season, really), and I don’t like it. Sorry.
I feel like I’m a Debbie Downer too. But gotta call it like I see it!
I don’t like it either.
Although it’s very early in the season – the things that I feel are missing are pretty serious. Like: their characters. That’s disturbing to me. JA and JP are their normal fabulous selves … and they could add depth to a Verizon commercial narration – but there’s got to be more.
I just re-watched The Mentalists (my favorite) and the fight between them – the whole vibe – beginning to end – is so charged, so intimate.
I’m not saying they need to be fighting but maybe that’s what I’m missing – a sense of intimacy with them. I feel once-removed.
I’m feeling kind of the same way, Lyrie, about the scenes between the brothers. There really haven’t been many, have there? The moments that stand out for me so far – off the top of my head:
— Sam bringing Mary tea, and hanging back in the doorway
— Dean drinking beer and looking at childhood photos
— Sam flinching when the door closed
— Dean wincing and backing away from his mother
That’s some pretty powerful stuff though – and hopefully they can build on it, but … as long as we don’t have a Big Bad, then can we PLEASE focus on relationships? Member how they did that in the episodes following Dean’s recovery from being a Demon? All those long conversations in the Impala? I thought it was fabulous – especially since they were covering new ground in those conversations.
Maybe this is just the normal adjustment of a new writing staff with a new show runner.
The Foundry was amazing. I’m holding onto that. It was subtle – and heartbreaking – and powerful. They’ve laid the groundwork for some amazing stuff, so …. let’s hope?
And good chunks of American Nightmare hit the sweet spot for me too — basically the non-Dean stuff, I didn’t really understand what was going on with Dean in that episode — that was a solid classic MoTW-reflects-the-boys’-issue-du-jour episode.
The MotW story was in American Nightmare was good horror with the gore and the twists (honestly I didn’t expect Magda in that basement). The Dean misfires in that episode are an example of the main problem this season which seems to be unevenness. The best eps have clunky parts (again I was rather speechless that Dean chose to keep Mary’s text to himself, what was the purpose of that in the story?) and the meh eps have had these brilliant chunks (that bit with Sam head faking Toni and almost escaping at the end of Keep Calm). But in retrospect, a lot of seasons of SPN are uneven. S11 was so solid for so long, I thought it was going for a perfect season (like the 2008 New England Patriots) and then just fell apart at the very end. Maybe they work out the kinks up front in s12 and end the second half strong? (Yeah, I know, drop the football analogies).
Well said Paula and this clunkiness is at least consistent with the ways later seasons have misstepped. It’s easy to remember the good stuff in retrospect — and s11 was helped by having a stone cold classic in episode 4 — but there were fair chunks of early episodes there that I have been happy to send to join my short term memory’s great gig in the sky.
Very good point – and you’re so right about Season 11. They were on such an unbelievable roll there! The de-rail was even that much more spectacular!
Also, my first impressions are often not reliable. I didn’t care for Season 7 at all on first watch – I liked individual episodes but just didn’t feel it was a very strong season. I’ve changed my tune on that one. It’s still not my favorite season but I think it’s extremely strong now. So I’m not sure what my problem was with it initially.
I feel like I’m sounding crankier than I actually feel. I liked a lot of it. But something is missing. Or maybe I’m just not in the mood right now for all of it – which is also highly possible.
Immediate reactions are interesting, but you’ve said it before and I agree, sometimes time is needed. For instance, the first time I watched it, I really didn’t like season 7. It’s still not my favourite, but I like it much more now – Bobby, Charlie, Death’s Door (one my favourite episode in the whole show), a lot of great stuff going on.
It’s only been a few episodes. I have a lot of hopes in Mary, no pressure, Mom. But on the other end, there are still boring demons, Rowena and Mr Ketch out there. Ugh.
I had this feeling of difference/where’d the show go at the start of seasons 3, 6, and 8 too (s3 because it just LOOKED so different at the start, and the extra characters aiming in).
Grappling with this difference is leading me to sound more negative than I feel as well…we don’t know what’s coming, obviously, and what we will in a year’s time look back on as important to the narrative and what we will selectively diminish and bemoan.
While certain things are evident — throwing fishing hooks into the past and reeling it in; some kind of strained but copacetic vision of “adult” relationships that is bringing some great Mary stuff but eating Sam alive; hunterism; a lot of goddamn chit chat — the shape and overriding interest of the Dabb era is still emerging. This is fun stuff to puzzle out (for me anyway) so…you know…so long as they do everything exactly right and how I want it from now on I’ll be okay!
// so long as they do everything exactly right and how I want it from now on I’ll be okay! //
hahahaha
The moment I liked and had to go back to was the conflict between Mary and Asa’s mother. First time I saw it, it felt like a slap in the face. I know the mom was drunk and hurting, but to take it out on Mary like that was ugly. Honestly, would it have been better to have some supernatural monster shred your kid??? If anything, it was the mom’s responsibility to raise the kid as a non-hunter and she failed him. Mary had nothing to do with that except give the kid a chance to grow up at all. But blaming someone else is always easier. And Mary easily accepts that load of blame and responsibility like a true Winchester.
And hunting is a thankless job as it is… Which brings me to a couple of thoughts on Mary’s hunting in secret. She said she wanted to tie up lose ends, but that argument seems weak. It’s not even that she was born and raised as a hunter. Hunting is addictive, like many dangerous jobs are. People get high on adrenalin-fused lifestyles worse than on drugs, and it is hard to walk away from that for good. So Mary was imo lying to herself to justify her still being involved in hunting. Sam seems to be doing the same thing, I saw that in his little talk with Dean in Asa’s room.
And when mom walked up to Mary in the end… Maybe she was aware that she was unjustly hard on Mary but still couldn’t get a proper “sorry” out… Perhaps it would have been better not to say anything at all than making that weird little attempt at communication. That moment felt so awkward it was life-like. I liked that.
//Hunting is addictive, like many dangerous jobs are. People get high on adrenalin-fused lifestyles worse than on drugs, and it is hard to walk away from that for good.// Barbara – I agree with you that the “loose ends” explanation seemed weak and this really makes me think. Now we know that Mary was still hunting and keeping it secret from John. I never thought of it as an addiction but wow, that would puts a different spin on some of the guilt we see in her. It also paints a new light on Sam’s comment that “it’s in their blood”.
Paula, thanks. Kinda adds more color to the John and Mary “happily married” picture. I mean, what the hell was wrong at home that “happy wife and mom” Mary needed to go back to hunting (fall back to the addiction)? AND John never noticed that! Hunting takes a toll on a hunters nerves, Mary had to be showing signs of stress afterwards even with little apparent physical injury. C’mon, man, your wife said she’s gone to visit family or whatever, but then she comes back twitchy and maybe with a little bruise or scratch here and there? No questions you wanna ask the woman? Nope? John was obviously a very attentive and caring man even before Mary’s death, huh!
I flashed back on Dean’s Heaven where he overhears Mary fighting with John on the phone. With this new information – I’ve been enjoying thinking that that phone call was due to the fact that Mary is in trouble with John for disappearing for a weekend or something and he’s had it. Or she threw him out because she was sick of him questioning her about where she was, what she was doing.
I don’t know if we can assume that John didn’t notice. He may very well have noticed, and she didn’t want to talk about it, or demanded that he stop mentioning it.
This line of thinking pleases me to no end!
As does the image of Mary going on a hunt while Dean’s at home in his crib, wondering where she is.
Yes yes YES to all of the above! Turns everything we thought we knew upside down. How great.
It makes me so happy. I want to re-watch that scene right now!
After a rewatch, rethink, and some strong Paulanie mindmelding I have come up with some different thoughts than previously ref Jodi, Mary, etc. ‘The boys’ arrive at Jodi’s without calling, crash in smellin’ stinky, make themselves at home on the sofa, eat Jodi’s fresh hot pizza, give her a hard time about her choice of movie, Sam tattle tales on Dean (direct parallel to Claire and Alex at the awkward dinner), and beg to be taken along on her roadtrip like overgrown kids. Jodi responds to all of this with patience, love, honesty, and firmness (if we’re going to ride 5 hours together in the car you gotta clean up first). She is clearly filling the “mom hole” in their lives in much the same way as Bobby filled their “dad shaped hole”. They feel completely comfortable with her. Contrast this to the awkward, unsureness they feel with Mary. Now think about Mary on that hunt back in 1980. I looked it up. Dean’s birthday is January 1979. He is a toddler under the age of 2 and his mother is out saving somebody else’s little boy because she has “loose ends”, “it’s complicated”, and “she just needs a minute”. I’m going to interject my own humble opinion here. (Not judging non-parents. Everyone has parents and so can relate.) Being a parent isn’t like other reasonable adult relationships. When you feel overwhelmed you don’t get to step back and take time to get yourself together. A therapist once told me that if I needed to cry I should do it in the shower so my 3 daughters wouldn’t see me. That’s where the parentification starts to creep in when they want to comfort you. No matter what you’re going through your child(ren) need you and need to know that you will always be there for them, unconditionally, at any age, no matter how far they go… and it’s a one way street. They are supposed to leave you, but you can’t leave them. So here’s precious little Dean who can’t understand why Mom keeps leaving him. Is John single parenting even then? I think this is a pattern with Mary. She feels overwhelmed and truly believes that she just needs a minute away or just one more hunt to tie up loose ends, etc. It IS a lot like an addict whose life has become unmanageable, but is convinced that with just one more hit he/she can control it. No doubt this contributed to Mary’s and John’s marital troubles. I suspect John got fed up with her secrets, excuses, and lies. (John is a mechanic. The idea that he wouldn’t notice a couple thousand miles road trip to Canada on the odometer strains believability.) Whether you like John or not he wasn’t stupid and I don’t really see John handling “the addict” in healthy ways. Poor Dean. No wonder he’s drinkin’ in the kitchen floor. I always wondered why Mary didn’t take steps to protect her family from the YED. This being overwhelmed/running away pattern explains a lot. Notice Mary’s response to the query, “So are you coming home?” “Yeah, yeah… I just need a little more time.” *Sigh*
We have 3 moms in contrast here: runaway mom Mary, unsupportive mom (Asa’s), and good mom Jodi. It is reassuring to know they will have Jodi when Mary ultimately breaks their hearts again.
Melanie, I agree with you. I too am wondering why she took no precaution against a demon she knew was after her. When I first learned she was a retired hunter, I thought she did it ’cause she got too rusty and relaxed. Now I can’t give her that anymore.
I also wonder how much Heaven messed things up for John and Mary. We know that those two hated each other at first, so Cupids had to get in on it for them to fall in love. I just wonder if Mary and John were subconciously rebelling against being forced into something that didn’t come naturally. Although it does seem like Mary didn’t truly know what she wanted in life anyway. First she fights her father to get out of hunting, then she lies to John and goes back to it, now it’s the same story all over again… geesh, pick something already!
None of the above is an excuse for screwing up a little kid’s head though.
// We know that those two hated each other at first, //
We do? Did I miss something?
That’s what the Cupid said in My Bloody Valentine (God bless that sweet pasty actor handing out the naked hugs to Sam, Dean and Cas because the looks on their faces were so pained).
Oh. Right. Yuk.
Didn’t care for that at all, which is why I blocked it out. Thought it was dumb. :(
Very uninteresting approach to the fascinating human relationships in this family.
One thing I love about SPN is that everyone is an unreliable narrator to some extent. You can’t believe Heaven or Hell because of their agendas, and Sam and Dean, as well as Mary and John, bring their own issues as to how they see things. Gives some flexibility for change to the canon (sometimes it’s pushed too far) but more interesting to me is the light it shines on the person telling the story, and this season it’s Dean and Mary and their perceptions.
Paula – ha, I know! We’ve had so many versions of that origin story that who the hell knows anymore. No wonder Dean prefers the Polaroid photo version. As well as his Dad’s version. If you have almost no good memories – then you certainly won’t want the few good memories you have to be tarnished or taken away.
(Same with John, come to think of it. Of course the marriage was perfect – until she died. That’s how memory often works. Nostalgia is inherently not to be trusted. But if everything sucks now – then of course everything that went on before the inciting event will seem perfect and longed-for.)
In re: Asa’s mother’s behavior with Mary:
I think everyone should get at least a year of Free Passes after the death of a loved one. You are not in your right mind.
The woman’s son just died. and he died in the line of duty and he died horribly. This woman’s son just died. She’s furious. (“But it doesn’t make sense to be furious at Mary!” Welcome to how Grief operates.)
ALSO, there was the deeper level that Mary is there with her own two sons – who are hunters but who are still alive unlike Asa – but also whom she has no relationship with, because she’s been dead for their whole lives. and has a lot of guilt about her actions that led to her death, and abandoning her sons, and blah blah blah.
So there was (potentially anyway – it wasn’t really explored) a good standoff between Hunter Mothers there – both of them with backstories that they aren’t sharing. They have more in common than they know. Mary walks in there and she’s the biggest Outlaw in that group (especially considering the rest of the hunters were so … indistinct. Goofballs. Nobodies. As Jessie said: Where were the GORDONS in that group?)
// Perhaps it would have been better not to say anything at all than making that weird little attempt at communication. That moment felt so awkward it was life-like. I liked that. //
Yes! I loved Asa’s mother. That was a full human being onscreen, even down to her fashion choices. She felt extremely real (unlike most of the other people at that house party.)
// Where were the GORDONS in that group?// can you imagine Gordon at that party? Circling them all like a predator that smells fresh meat. He would have smiled when the demon showed because now THAT’S A PARTY.
Right, and why were all these hunters so … passive?
Dean and Sam had to step in and tell everyone what to do – when in actuality every single one of them should be battling to be the first with the Plan of Action.
Again: dumb, and not sensitive to the “reality” of this fictional world.
I don’t know. Another dropped ball. I dislike conventionality, in general, and this is one of the reasons why the show suits me so well. I have never “fit in” with anything I’m supposed to be doing, or that the conventional world deems “appropriate” for me at any given moment.
SPN is the Wild West. Not suburban soccer mom-world and its premium placed on comfort, domesticity, safety. Hunters SAVE the suburban soccer moms from monsters. Hunters should never be in that category. (And Mary Winchester will never be in that category.) Which is part of my issue with the bunker now. Gettin’ just a little bit too cozy and comfy there.
That’s why I liked Asa’s mom. Whatever way you sliced it, hunter son or no, that woman was NOT conventional. She didn’t give a shit. She was who she was.
and that’s why I think I’m not having the negative reaction to Mary’s unconventionality and “inappropriate” mother behavior that some other people on this thread have expressed. I’m not judging other people’s reactions – just pointing out my different reaction.
I’m not surprised at all that that girl who crawled out windows to meet her boyfriend and who snuck out of a date with said boyfriend to beat the shit out of the lurker in the alleyway would have a hard time leaving behind that arena – an arena where she could do anything, where she was extraordinary, not ordinary. Ordinary is fine for ordinary people. But it’s a square peg/round hole for others.
Your body gets used to adrenaline. You can’t just turn that off. (This is what I’ve talked about so often in regards to Dean especially – connecting him with John Wayne in The Searchers and Jeremy Renner in The Hurt Locker. Those men are so used to living an adrenaline-drenched life that they are eventually unfit for domestic life – literally: Wayne can’t go through the door of the house in the final shot of The Searchers, and Jermy Renner takes one look at the supermarket’s line of cereal boxes and knows he has to go back to war, which is easier, and at least he knows why he makes the choices he makes in a war context. That’s Dean. That’s Mary.)
I don’t relate to characters, in general, in an “approve/disapprove” way. I want complexity. I want complications. I want people who are drawn to things that are not “good” for them. This is why myths/legends/epics last. I want people who do stuff that is ambiguous – stuff that even THEY may not know why they’re doing it.
I just reviewed a movie that’s coming out Friday – Miss Sloane – and I didn’t really care for it – but the most interesting parts of it were the parts where the character “didn’t make sense” – or at least wouldn’t make sense to people who are polite, were raised well, were raised to make rational choices that don’t differ from anyone else’s choices. Ironically, but not surprisingly – these are the elements of the character that are being criticized by other critics – because suddenly she doesn’t seem like a “strong woman” anymore, she seems like a head case, and they are disappointed. “Why does she have to be neurotic? Why does she have to be so messed up? Can’t she just be strong?”
Uhm, no, because that would not be dramatically satisfying in any way whatsoever.
On Asa’s mom with Mary. I understand that she lashed out because she was overwhelmed with grief. It’s just that it seemed to me that there was more to it than that, that she had longer running issues with Mary, like she’s been blaming that hunter for her son’s life style long before disaster struck. If I’m wrong and it was just grief breaching the surface, than yeah, Free Pass and my sympathies. But if it’s something different… It makes Asa’s mom a little less sympathetic to me personally but very realistic nonetheless.
Either way, she made me as a viewer react and respond, so good job team Supernatural!
I think for sure she had a LOT of anger and it was directed at Mary. I guess that makes sense to me – even though Mary saved her son.
I guess I don’t react to characters in that way – whether or not they are sympathetic. (Especially now, when SPN seems on the verge of de-railing into something cozy/polite/domestic. Ugh. Those hunters at that party!!)
I want people who are interesting and human – AND who don’t bow down in awe at the Winchesters, like the rest of the hunters did at that party. Like Jody saying, “These are the best men I’ve ever known.” Come ON. Let the fans hero worship those guys. Please let’s avoid doing that in the show itself – ESPECIALLY in a hunter community where – presumably – everyone would have extremely ambivalent feelings about the Winchesters. Every other season we’ve seen hunters get hostile, or suspicious, or do double-takes when they meet Sam and Dean – blaming them for their father’s behavior – blaming them for their recklessness in opening Devil’s Gate, starting Apocalypse – and suddenly these hunters are like, “Oh my God, you two are so cool, you’re FAMOUS”.
Maybe my reaction to Asa’s mother NOT doing that was relief that she wasn’t falling under some Winchester Spell like everybody else- including Jody – like: Jody?? Really? – was. She was not impressed. She was pissed. It was a relief – it gave her scenes an edge that was lacking in the rest of it, if that makes sense.
Guilty, I do like to totally submerge into the show or a book, find things that stir emotions and stuff to relate to. That’s why I enjoy your reviews – you give a different, professional angle to it.
And yeah, I like when this show messes with my perception and takes me out of my comfort zone. I would have preferred if hunters at that wake were more suspicious of all the legends surrounding Sam and Dean (more along the lines of “Oh yeah? Prove it, hotshot!”). Mistrust and a sensible amount of hostility should be in their bones! So what was with all the fangirling? I blame the home brewed beer.
Don’t get me wrong!! – I totally want “ways in” where I can relate as well – I think we all come to the story with that – I guess my point is that I related to Asa’s mother. :) I also related to Mary. And so that was a very rich exchange for me – since I felt I was watching something human and complex go down – as opposed to something black and white, good vs. bad, etc.
Like, if Asa’s mother had been portrayed as a clear “villain” – then it would be obvious which side we are supposed to be on. I find that boring. What was interesting was that it wasn’t obvious. SPN is best when it is ambivalent, when it doesn’t come down hard on one side or the other … AND when Sam and Dean are not the only “good” people onscreen (because Yuk.) Complexity is what SPN does best – and there was a real lack of complexity at that hunter party – so I appreciated Asa’s mother and her alcohol and her sunglasses and her absolute unconcern for the reputation of the Winchesters. It was a breath of fresh air.
I do agree that the hunters at the wake seemed bland and not particularly fierce, but I also in a way liked the way they reacted to the Winchesters simply because we HAVEN’T seen that. Usually other hunters are suspicious or angry or gunning for them (because Sam’s “not human” for example), but YEARS later, they’re legendary and we see hunters who maybe aren’t as personally involved as people who were Gordon’s or Steve Wandell’s friends, who can look at these guys and think, “Whoa. It’s THEM, that we’ve heard about.”
Yeah, I can see that it reflects the show’s fans too much perhaps, but I liked that there is that kind of response among hunters too, not just endless animosity.
//We know that those two hated each other at first//
Barbara, What do we know about Mary and John? As Paula pointed out once upon a time, poor Mary must have whiplash from the retconning of her story line. In the first episode this season Dean describes their meeting outside a movie theater and very nearly “love at first sight”, so what’s the real story? Mary seemed to acknowledge it. Did John just make that up to romanticize his relationship with Mary and as a way of justifying his obsession to little Dean? Did the cupids mind wipe both of them to forget that they hated each other at first?
I personally don’t give much account to that cupid episode in terms of the long term canon of Mary and John. I truly believe they thought they would throw that stuff in as background fluff to the cupid story not realizing how deeply disturbing that concept really is that M&J were forced together by all the powers of heaven… It does, however, fit with the general overall theme of the consequences of screwing with the natural order, death, love, etc. Team Free Will has become the show’s mantra. When the ballad of Mary and John is sung will it be a story of their tragic destiny or of their love triumphing over the unearthly powers assailing them?
Melanie, the moment Dean mentioned his parents meeting my ears pricked up. Neither Dean’s or John’s idealization of J&M’s marriage can be trusted. Dean himself said it wasn’t perfect until she died. Mary’s acknowledgement of the love she had for John doesn’t contradict the Cupid’s story, plus she still is under the effect of her memories from Heaven. As for Cupid’s account, it does fit well with what the archangel Michael told Dean about Heaven basically indulging in eugenics to breed two perfect vessels (made angels look like freakin’ Nazis with wings!). So I wouldn’t discard it altogether.
Anyway, I mentioned it because to me there had to be a good reason for Mary going on her little hunting binges after she married and had Dean. It’s almost self-destructive and escapist. So (again, in my opinion only) something had to be really wrong at home for her to go back to hunting.
With this show I don’t trust anything to be simple, non-layered and pain-free. So whatever the song will be, it’s bound to be an emotional one, lol!
Great conversation. As often, you guys help me pinpoint what I felt doesn’t work but without knowing why exactly.
Also, Jessie, I love it when you’re mean.
hahaha me too.
wait a minute, that was Sheila being mean not me! The writers aren’t so bad. And I kind of feel for them. It’s a tough job. Every night, collecting the slammed-off sci-fantasy fridge word magnets from the kitchen floor during your midnight Pepsi Max re-up and assembling them into a script.
I love you.
No chick flicks.
Uhm, bitch?
What are you calling me a bitch for?
HA HA HA HA HA, djinn-Jessie! It’s fine. Just don’t look at what’s in the bag, you couldn’t handle it.
//Mostly I return to the thought that blowing smoke up Sam’s ass is MY job, not the show’s.// JESSIE, how did I miss this the first time? Can we job share?
Well. You can have Mondays, Paula.
You’re lucky I like you.
This is a comment about the episode “LOTUS”, which aired 12/08.
Wow, this episode was very low key. You’d think a story involving Lucifer inhabiting the POTUS would be full of tension and menace. Not this one. Well, it did pick up for a bit when Mr. Ketch showed up with his grenade launcher and BOOM! The show felt so… different; I felt like something vital had been drained from the characters that I’ve loved for all these years. I hope it’s just because of the writers.
Not sure how I feel about the spawn of Lucifer thing. Hopefully, it will be handled by writers that can actually spin an itriguing tale. I will say that I’m looking forward to the boys being held prisoner – I’ve read so many fics with that theme.
At this point I’m telling myself “we’ll always have 10 and ¾ great seasons.” Or 10 and 3/16’s, if we get rigorous about the truncated season 3.
Maybe the Rosemary’s Baby arc will be good. And maybe being held by the Secret Service (will that take on some supernatural connotation?) will be cool. But my trust that things will be great again is slowly eroding. And while Castiel is still mostly a drip, I did want him to smite Mr. Ketch with his “hey, angel, erase their memories” command. I guess that’s how one bureaucrat addresses another. Oy.
Pat, too didn’t feel the tension or menace. It should have been there but wasn’t. I’m thinking of “Hunted” (2×10) and the danger that Gordon exuded. There were hardly any characters in that episode, but it was intense. This episode had the president, his staff, the Secret Service, Lucifer, a woman pregnant with Lucifer’s baby, a British assassin, an angel, the king of hell, and our favorite hunters, but it was lacking intensity or verisimilitude: yeah, I get checking to make sure the president is still alive, but why hang out there until the Secret Service comes in? They weren’t really DOING anything so I didn’t get why they would be hanging around. They’d have to know no one is going to be leaving the president alone for very long.
I meant to say, “Pat, I too . . . “
“Easy there tiger…” NO……just NO.
Go to your room, Supernatural. I can’t even look at you right now.
Time out for everyone involved.
Ha ha ha, I love you guys. Here are the notes I took during the episode – because I was bored out of my mind:
– So you’re going straight to where you think Lucifer is with what, just your dick in your hand? What are you going to do, say hello? Aren’t you lucky he wasn’t there?
– It’s alright, Sam, it’s just water. You know water.
– Sure, let the priest die. Don’t call 911. Whatever.
– Ew.
– “Angel radio” was a great expression the first time it was used, as kind of a joke. Said seriously for several years it’s pretty ridiculous.
– Should stay away from anything remotely linked to politics. Forever.
I didn’t want to say this here before, because I don’t like being super negative. But for a while, now, I’ve felt like Supernatural is that relative you love and you watch sink into senility: they used to be so great, and it’s still them, but really, it’s less and less them, and it breaks your heart, but you don’t want to let go, because of what they used to be, because it’s still them, but deep down you also hope you won’t have to watch them sink too deep before it’s over.
And you also keep hoping, against the odds, that they’ll bounce back, because they do have moments of lucidity.
Or maybe that’s just me?
I cling to any moment that feels personal or emotional with the brothers. I CLING to it. At this point though, I think it’s just Jared and Jensen surviving as actors – they can’t help but make things personal. But nobody seems to understand that those moments are the POINT. Why are there so many scenes withOUT them? Why have there been no “BM” scenes for 3 episodes now?
But yeah, of course, I keep hoping.
Natalie, I’m not an optimist. That’s one of the reasons why I like talking with you guys, you help me hope.
Hahahahahahaha, if I didn’t laugh, I would cry.
//So you’re going straight to where you think Lucifer is with what, just your dick in your hand?// Pretty sure that’s the general plan for s12. That and having every single character standing in the room for every scene. Oh, except when they leave Sam and Dean alone at the end to get arrested. Where was the rest of the Scooby gang then?
So, Ketch is supposed to be this Treadstone-type assassin (forgive the Jason Bourne analogy)? Efficient and ruthless, takes care of things and then gets out again. But he drives Bulgatis and Mercedes to his crimes, listens to jazz loudly in his car and his first weapon of choice is a grenade launcher. He could be interesting but right now, I’m really just confused.
// That and having every single character standing in the room for every scene. //
The WORST.
I am mostly disturbed though by how the characters no longer seem to EXIST. What the hell did they do to them? The LA episode was a travesty. Yeah, Sam and Dean – who are super smart – decide to pretend to be rock stars to meet with the publicist and find out where the show is. Like: if she’s representing this so-called Media Phenom she’d have time to meet with two people she’d never heard of?
This tells me that nobody knows these characters anymore. I was bitching about this to Jessie/Helena: missed opportunity for Dean to get so into his rock-star mode that he forgets himself (a la Frontierland, a la every other damn episode), or that Sam forgets that it’s Lucifer and finds himself fan-boying – ANYthing. Not just two bitchy lines about cucumber water and an “excuse” to put Dean in a Menudo outfit.
Super stupid.
I don’t even know what I’m WATCHING.
Lyrie, et al, I completely agree with everything, especially,
//I didn’t want to say this…//
And also,
//you’re going straight to where you think Lucifer is with what?//
My thoughts the week before went back to “Abandon All Hope”. Remember when they faced down Lucifer? Remember when Ellen and Jo gave their lives so S&D could get a shot at him? I cried, did you? Remember how intense it felt when Dean actually shot Lucifer in the face with the Colt? And then how devastating it was that it didn’t work and Mark Pellegrino/Lucifer taunted them? Remember how truly evil he seemed?
I really enjoyed “Vincifer” but the triviality of that whole LA scene just can’t stand up to the real drama I felt in AAH, also a real sense of impending doom. (I enjoyed Crowley again for the first time in a long time. He needs to stay in LA/Malibu mansion where we first met him. King of the Crossroads suits him so much better.)
As for the mid-season finale I fell asleep and can’t even work up enough interest to finish watching the episode. Again I go back to Dick Roman as a better example of super powerful guy you love to despise and he was sooo despicable, ‘great big bag-o-dicks’, oh wait, that was the really evil Lucifer… The POTUS actor was just so blah. I got the sense they wanted to be bold by making a political statement, but failed because they didn’t want to satirise *anyone* too directly. Let’s get real, that guy could never get elected.
I hate feeling this way about our show.
//So you’re going straight to where you think Lucifer is with what, just your dick in your hand?//
Seriously, magic handcuffs and the fire alarm?!? Remember risking life and limb or time travel to get the Colt or phoenix ash, or the book of the Damned, or even the codex, but now that witchy-poo has it memorized it’s all too easy. Hello! Charlie DIED for that! Collecting the rings to open the cage and put Lucifer back in, the trials, translating the tablets, risking their lives. They have immasculated our “manly men” heroes.
I feel like Dean in the early sections of Season 6 where he stares at Sam and thinks, “That LOOKS like my brother. But that is NOT MY BROTHER.”
The political shit is pissing me off. They assumed HRC would win, is my theory, and so that this would play out like some alternate-history wish-fulfillment. Bad choice. Tone fucking deaf, and I felt that way before the election with that Kill-Hitler travesty.
Did we need not one, not two, but THREE lengthy scenes between the President and his mistress? With ZERO scenes between Sam and Dean? Why the fuck do they think we’re watching? Incompetent.
Somehow, overnight, Castiel has discovered sarcasm. He has been sarcastic at least once an episode which tells me that nobody even remembers what the character is supposed to be.
I can’t even talk about what has been done to Sam and Dean, as well as the total lack of emotional subtext – and this, in a season when Mary has returned.
Disgraceful.
There is no gap any more, no space for undercurrent. It’s all surface. The last spark of it was American Nightmare. Even the end of Asa Fox: standing around in the daylight with that terrible blocking on those cars, Billie talking to Mary about her potential suicide, in front of the boys, and it all resolves into breakfast? WTF?
It’s so easy to be an armchair writer/director but some of the fixes here — on the various levels of scene, episode, and underlying story — just seem so obvious it crucifies me.
The show needs to destabilise and discomfit NOW.
I agree with everyone as to the loss of juiciness and competence in our show. So to maintain what’s left of my sanity, I’ve decided to stop looking for it, enjoy it for what it is, sort of SPN-light and wait till next year.
Two weeks after the episode aired and I just figured out that LOTUS is not just a random title/that the writer likes a certain type of flower — the L stands for Lucifer. I can’t even blame it on the holidays. Yeesh.
No.
SPOILERS
alternatively:
A-plot: S&D interrogations and isolation. Attempts to communicate with each other that fail or succeed. Instead of a bunch of tossed-off references at the start, bring it into the episode. Who are they? What does their history mean? Is Dean trying to connect with and then exploit his food guy? Is Sam going nuts over time? Failed escape attempt climax.
Plot of contractual obligations: Crowley hints that BMOL might know where they are. Mary and Cas find them and are sent on a minor hunt as a price for BMOL help. Some kind of moral/BMOL entanglement that sets up future hunter conflict or compromised Mary. Get info, finally, but cut to:
Cliffhanger: Sam and Dean are dead in their rooms.
Next episode: escapes, badassery, competence, psychological drama about who’s gonna pay Billie’s price, maybe some connection with their interrogators who are secretly killed by Ketch at the end. Ticking clock. Kill Billie if it’s really that important to you I guess but it sure seems like a dumb move.
I mean, I hate backseat drivers, and I’m sure I know less than nothing about why this episode ended up like it did, but I came up with this while I was washing my hair and I ain’t Rapunzel. I could never have imagined that this show, in its structure, writing, and direction, would care so little about the Winchesters. This is ridiculous.
I didn’t hate every moment. There were lines I loved.
But…yeah.
Sucker that I am, I have some hope simply because I didn’t hate every moment. At least Sam and Dean were Sam and Dean.
Oh look, a unicorn! And what that coming out of its…
And, you know that scene in La Femme Nikita where Jean Reno drags all the guys he’s mostly killed into a bathtub and pours acid on them so they can’t be identified?
That’s what I’d like to do to the BMOL.
I want to say that makes them good antagonists, but…
To be fair, I think the same thing after most episodes. “Wow, that had so much potential but…” In this case, I didn’t hate it. Yes, I wanted more from the prison scenes because I knew it was such a rich environment for these internal conflicts. But there were some things I loved:
* Sam’s slight tick versus Dean’s steely gaze during their parallel convos
* the mystery of how they ended up dead carried through the episode
* Sam and Dean’s differing reactions to the prison food (such consistency with the brothers through the years)
* that imagery of the two of them in the morgue lying side by side while the light flickered on and off
* the run through the forest (again, I was hoping for more of The Defiant Ones ala Kripke but realized when the end played out why that didn’t happen)
* the survivalist cabin and that visual of Sam lighting the lantern (nice parallel to another cabin, another run, another Winchester supposed to be dead in Red Meat)
* Sam getting out the first aid kit in advance of the fight because despite his badassery, he’s such a good guy
* Winchester silent conversations or avoidance of a looming truth (“Dean, we have to talk-” “Later”)
It wasn’t perfect (good lord, what are they doing to Cas? His characterization is giving me whiplash) but it was a real rebound from the mess that was LOTUS.
mutecypher and Paula, I am so, so glad you found something to enjoy in there! It’s likely that I’m not in the mental or emotional place to be able to give the good things a chance — some of those shots like Sam lighting the lantern, I’m like, yeah, I get the parallel, but it just does nothing for me :-( Their actual/potential death was not treated with the slightest bit of seriousness, as it was in Red Meat, so what’s the point of the parallel?
I agree mutecypher, the BMOL are just embarrassing at this stage.
Paula I agree, I think it upped the game in key competencies from LOTUS (not hard) but because I picked Billie as the resolution to the death mystery there was no tension for me. It’s not enough to have them running around or sitting around looking cute/vulnerable/badass. If that’s the extent of the pleasure of the show then it’s not the show anymore.
I hope it doesn’t seem like I’m having a go at you! There’s a certain kind of negativity about the show that’s always been around that I personally avoid because it’s too angry and immutable and it leeched away the good and happiness I felt so feel free to tell me to get stuffed :-D
// It’s not enough to have them running around or sitting around looking cute/vulnerable/badass. If that’s the extent of the pleasure of the show then it’s not the show anymore. //
That’s so depressing. But it’s so true.
and yes – I honestly don’t mean this as a criticism of those who found things to like!
Not my bag at all!!
I’m just depressed.
the problem with screaming into the void, jessie, is that there has to be something worth screaming about.
I’m right about here right about now? And five days ago I was sobbing cat-startling sobs as Mary left the bunker. Two weeks prior I made my baby sister cry just by saying the words “imaginary friends” to her. I have been drowning in thoughts and feelings about this show since I picked it for my What I Did with My Pandemic essay, but right now I think nothing and I feel nothing. So hey, void, is it you and me here on out? I’ll try to keep it down.
ahahaha I’m that obvious am I? /o\
I was dreading this two-episode punch for you! It’s devastating. :((((( I’m so curious, how does s12 play in a binge, for a first-time viewer? Has 12 wiped out your feelings then? I’d had some hope that, buoyed by 11 and racing through, the season might work a little better than how I experienced it. And hey — s13 is a slight improvement, and s14 has the two best episodes of the dabb era so far, one right after the other, so you have that ahead of you!
It’s nice to see you here and like I said it’s exciting the show is still picking up viewers who drown in feelings about it!
Ha, you made a crack (maybe around Fan Fiction?) about Adam that gave you away :*
I’ve been conscious all along about how binge watching has made for a very different experience than serial viewing would – the most glaring example for me is the first half of s8, which I gather was pretty universally hated. I loved it, like rolling around in the muck loved it, I loved Amelia and thought she was great for Sam (not the least that he was obviously borrowing her product when showering). (I mean you look at Sam’s lengthy stretches without Dean: Stanford, the six solo months of Mystery Spot, Ruby, Samuel – Sam comes out of this with a dog and a house, eating organic produce and making college inquiries, looking absolutely magnificent. Amelia is clearly top 2 material here.) But I knew when watching it that I was only at the halfway point of the series, that it didn’t end with s8, that Sam continued to appear in the promo materials and Amelia was long vanished. It made her easier to relax about and appreciate.
I’m also following the rather weird method of two binge watches simultaneously and not well-spaced. It makes for some odd resonances and reinforcements – I watched Amelia at the same time as I rewatched Samuel Campbell, for example. I watched Castiel destroy Sam’s mind at the same time as I rewatched him unlock the panic room and get the apocalypse rolling. So I have a world of patience for Amelia and almost none for Castiel. And a couple of hours before I watched the love story of Lucifer and Kelly Kline, I had just shown my partner Baby. The comedown was harsh.
S12 is tough going. I expected that, but I thought it would be tough because of the shockwaves caused by Mary’s reappearance. I was hopeful that there would be follow through on Sam the Listener – this felt very true to life to me, Sam trying to protect Dean from Mary and Mary from Dean and utterly failing to take care of himself – but I don’t have a lot of faith in that right now. I am sorry that this season seems to lean so heavily on Lucifer as I find him dramatically inert, which is weird to say when the mere memory of him nearly killed Sam in s7. The BMoL remind me of Buffy’s Initiative, not in a particularly good way? Which is also odd, as I’d been hoping for a good human antagonist for a while now.
Elsewhere here someone (Barb?) makes the point that it’s natural for the brother relationship to fade from the narrative because that arc reached its resolution in s11. Maybe that’s so. But I watch this show from at least four different perspectives with at least four different sets of hopes and four different ways the show could devastate or delight. It’s a wide range and as recently as a week ago I would have thought there was no way the show could lose track of all of them. I realize now that all four of them center on Sam and Dean and what an endgame might look like for them. There is still so much material there! But if the show has no interest in them then I don’t know where we go from here.
I kind of hate to be jumping into the conversation at this point because I love this show. I’m glad to hear that there are somewhat better times ahead! And thanks again for directing me here, everyone here is just so smart and thoughtful.
And another unfortunate juxtaposition: we just watched O Brother Where Art Thou and it is so legitimately terrifying, the history of everything Sam endured during his 180ish years in the Cage is all over his face, I had all these hopes when first watching it that we were going to get some kind of exploration of what faith meant to Sam and how he could proceed after such a violent, s2-ish rejection and repudiation. Such an amazing episode with so much potential that ended up utterly defused and discarded with Cas as Lucifer and the arrival of Chuck for his bro hangouts.
Just bizarre that a season later I see no potential in a Lucifer storyline.
lol, poor Adam :D
That is very interesting about s8! It definitely took people (incl me) aback at the time – I was so alienated by the visuals, and I remember being like — Amelia is a TERRIBLE vet and so RUDE, how could they POSSIBLY let Sam hook up with her like it’s OKAY?, haha. I was so offended on his behalf. But I’ve also heard that people binging struggle with it too and I wonder if it’s about an openness to letting it play out, and not be expecting ~poetic cinema in the meantime. If you’re in it for Sam and Dean, s8 and 9 have plenty of muck to roll around in, and it’s juicy stuff.
Big wow to your double-watch. I hope you can guide your partner with sensitivity and understanding through these difficult times. That Baby –> LOTUS only takes 24 episodes is kinda mind-blowing, right? BMoL as the Initiative was something that crossed my mind too. Similar stretch of the background working of the world into something that fails the barest tests of functionality or practicality, but at least Buffy had the Council of Watchers to make it feel somewhat of a piece. But now we have to live with a Supernatural that has an Evil Hogwarts. And the rest of it that’s to come. It’s a bummer!
Just bizarre that a season later I see no potential in a Lucifer storyline
The second his function is not in personal relation to Sam (and Dean by proxy) he does, yes, become dramatically inert. His pettiness and playfulness around Sam is frightening; around anyone else it feels silly. The show requires a terrifying kind of solipsism (fraterism?) to exist. I mean, for me. I just can’t look at it through Buffyish ensemble eyes.
Also oh man yes, that Carver set that exploitation of Sam’s faith up and then dropped it was a real failing in such a strong season (from which I mentally excise 11.21+). We got some good moments like The Vessel out of it but on the whole, our access to Sam never really recovered.
Anyway, despite all that, I’m so glad you love the show! Here’s hoping they can bring it home.
My whole state got wiped out by a nasty windstorm Monday; I come to you from my new hotel home, featuring electricity and internet and no branches poking through the ceiling, which makes it a rare property in these trying times. 2020 just can’t help itself.
I was so alienated by the visuals, and I remember being like — Amelia is a TERRIBLE vet and so RUDE, how could they POSSIBLY let Sam hook up with her like it’s OKAY?
Amelia is SO RUDE. She is SUCH a DISASTER. And the visuals are SO AWFUL. They’ve been using a soft focus flashback style for a while now that has me constantly wiping my glasses. For whatever reason, Sam’s day-glo Texas made me laugh out loud, every time we dissolved back there. It was such a ludicrous contrast to Dean’s desaturated murder holiday. In general, though, angles, pallettes, shot length, etc are not things I consciously interact with yet, which is one of the many things I love about this blog and these discussions. I’m learning a lot.
Imo, Sam tends to like an opinionated lady, probably can take/is comfortable with a bit more irrational criticism and minor bullying than your average bear, and I think probably was at a place where he found being told that he was doing it wrong and here’s how to fix it dumbass comforting. He’s at home with a bit of mess. Amount of time my household has focused on Sam between s7 and s8 is out of all proportion and has included lego creations, plotting out potential dog-hitting routes on google maps, and 64 song fan mixes. It’s probably all better suited to a different forum.
But, as we’ve discussed elsewhere, Sam as object of desire, particularly as one who keeps denying Dean/the viewer, is a rich vein, and I find viewer/Dean/the Show Itself reaction to this particular point in their lives fascinating. What do we think Sam owes us? Why? Is it fair, is it consistent? If he shot a pretty bartender, stabbed Bobby through the heart, started an apocalypse, manipulated a loser husband into selling his soul, proposed to his girlfriend and enrolled in grad school instead of moving in with a vet and getting a dog, how would we feel? What if he hooked up with a vampire or became a demon or sold his soul instead? Can Sam win with us/Dean/the Show/himself? Two brothers, one falls in love with a vampire and one a veterinarian, and it’s the veterinarian that we can’t forgive. It’s a strange show, and we’re a strange people, and the conclusions frustrated desire leads us to are fascinating.
And honestly, a lot of it has to do with my own baggage – when Dean sulks on the floor at the end of his bed, needing to hear every awful detail, denying Amelia a name while memorizing it in order to weaponize it later, I am right there with him. The reason I take so much delight in my List of Things Dean Hates Because Sam Loves Them is because I have my own lists like that for everyone I’ve loved and needed, and my first and longest list is dedicated to my baby sister. So, is it fair? Is it reasonable? Should Sam do what we want because we love him so much? What if he was a friend, or a girlfriend, and not a brother? Does that change anything? Sam does something he wants but we don’t, is it okay to sulk about it? Yell at him? Beat him up or knock him out? Lock him up or chain him down? Slice off his head with Death’s own scythe? Can anyone win here? I love how this show can slide our sympathies back and forth, from How could he try to kill Bobby? to How dare he go to a farmer’s market? – where’s the line about what’s reasonable, how does the viewer feel when they realize they’ve slid right over it? Does the viewer always/most of the time/even occasionally realize? It’s uncomfortable viewing and I love it. It’s helped me gain clarity on where my own lines are.
You’re also correct about not expecting poetry – I think the Alphas and Leviathans broke me of that habit. (I still haven’t come around on s7 yet – I admire it in parts but not as a whole – but on a second viewing I was surprised at what a tightly plotted mystery s6 was. I just hadn’t been expecting this to be a mystery show! While I still have minimal interest in Alphas or Eve, and while I still find Balthazar and Raphael a little undercooked, I admire s6 as a whole a great deal.) I did just sit back, decide it was going to be messy but fun, and I enjoyed the heck out of it.
The show requires a terrifying kind of solipsism (fraterism?) to exist. I mean, for me. I just can’t look at it through Buffyish ensemble eyes.
Same here, and the impression that it was just Buffy for Boys was part of why I resisted it for so long. I mean, I had Buffy for Girls, and I didn’t see the addition of testosterone unearthing anything that needed my particular attention. But instead it’s a show about two complicated, uneasy people with a complicated, uneasy relationship to each other and their complicated, uneasy past. The repercussions from their emotions and reactions are cosmic in scale, but always it’s about these two specific people. If I cared about Lucifer for himself, seeing him out for chuckles and kids might be entertaining or enlightening. But I don’t, and I don’t feel the show has made an argument that I should.
I’m about done with s12 now, and idk, I still don’t have a lot to say about it. 18 and 20 were enjoyable, but I hope 19 was rock bottom. I think they’re all out of scope for this entry’s comment section. I guess I’m going to list Mary in the same column as Sam’s faith and the nature of the soul, and absolutely everything else in the Alphas and Leviathans column, thanks but no thanks.
I’m sorry for the delay in replying (family life is all-consuming atm), I hope your living situation has been restored! My goodness. It’s nice to get out of the house sometimes but not forcibly in the middle of a pandemic.
I love what you have to say here. Dean’s desaturated murder holiday! haha. It wasn’t a confident choice to go day-glo for Sam. And yes, Sam at home with imperfection being as it’s what he’s used to; for us, imperfection and unreliability in the retelling of it as well. I have sympathy for people who can’t get behind the fugue flashbacks or “Sam never looked for Dean” — I kind of agree in fact, but some of that very clumsiness creates enough mess and contradiction and fear and loathing to give you glimpses of what might have happened with Sam after Dean and Cas disappeared, and that shadow-story is interesting too.
The dynamics of spectatorship and desire – objectification, sympathy, jealousy, complicity, etc – in the show regularly put me on the floor. I love your elaboration of it and personal notes. The show, in its queasiest most compelling moments, is rich with those layers of resistance and capitulation. Dean doesn’t want to be seen, but we’re seeing him; Sam doesn’t want to be kept, but we’re keeping him. All the time I think about that bizarre shot in Phantom Traveller where we pan across Dean’s body and Sam looms dangerously at him from the shadows. Shades of Butch Cassidy &TSK, shades of Sweet Smell of Success, just overall a real bonkers fraught eroticism that forces absolute alignment of viewer and show obsession. “It’s a Strange Show” should definitely be the subtitle of whatever magnum opus Sheila ever writes about the joint.
I see you’re up to s13 now! How are you travelling with it? There’s a sequence in 21 that I still think about all the time, it was so sharply, painfully done. I have total faith you’ll be caught up by the second half of 15 and then have to join us week-to-week plebs.
PS So long as your fanmixes all include Donovan’s I Love My Shirt you’re all good.
I thought it was terrible, I’m sorry!
Sam and Dean have become extras in their own show.
I feel like they’re reaching out to the 13-year-old Nerd Boy contingency. Sam and Dean taking down a whole SWAT team. Just like Captain America! No inner life, either. Gimme a break.
Only good thing was Robert Singer’s direction – which is always fluid and intuitive. There was beauty in the shots.
That’s all I got.
I might be more willing to cite Singer as a plus if I felt like he emphasised Sam and Dean’s psychology or souls at all (no Looks at each other before they got locked in solitary; no relationship between their bodies or sightlines as they awoke from being dead and not seeing each other for six weeks) or was interested in the terror of the space of the jail. “Concrete” was all I got from that set and the way it was shot. Thanks, very illuminating, yeah definitely “worse than hell.”
The second Technicolour Cas walked around Technicolour Fmr Presidential Motel in Technicolour day I was like, okay, prepare yourself for this Jessie.
//13-year-old Nerd Boy contingency//
So that’s why I didn’t hate it!
Just kidding. Taking down the SWAT team was terrible – agreed. The fight choreography has fallen in quality along with so much else.
Making terrible deals, I liked.
As has been so frequently asked, WTF is Castiel any more? How did he get behind Billie to stab her? Can he sorta-angel for 10 feet but not farther?
A couple of my 9th grade students just got into the show over their summer break. It’s interesting to hear their thoughts. When they were watching the early seasons it was fun to talk – all the while wondering how they would view the latter part of last season and the current one.
And now they’re on the same page as we are. It’s sad to see youth become disillusioned. But we’ve agreed that 10.5 very good seasons is something to treasure.
Your students sound awesome!
The Billie thing is a travesty, as is the devolution of reapers into monsters that can be killed by an angel blade, and to have her killed so unceremoniously is an insult to the character, the power of the actress, and the potential they both had. Who knows, maybe it was a fakeout and she’s not dead.
I am lucky to have the students I do.
oh, those “save the world” lines and speeches. How did JP not vomit saying that? Who does Dabb/Singer think we are? Is that what they really think we think of them? How insulting to everyone involved. I refer to my argument above about whose job it is to blow smoke up their asses.
“Sam and Dean have become extras in their own show.”
That’s a good comment. I’m starting to wonder if it isn’t deliberate? Jensen’s wife just had twins, Jared’s wife is pregnant — I wonder if it isn’t a way of introducing a “spin-off” in the unusual manner of phasing out the main characters and focusing more on the British MOL and their plans to recruit American hunters and taking the story in that direction.
I know they just were-re-upped for a 13th season but Jensen and Jared have repeatedly said they’d love to do a movie after the show ends and this would be a way to have the show slowly phase them out but not kill them off so that a movie would have big stakes some how? Just wondering. I think a show at this level (and cost) doesn’t make decisions randomly.
I also wonder if this season will be viewed differently in the future? Much like season 6 and 7 were initially hated and then, on a re-watch, found to be solid seasons, just different than the previous ones? (I’m thinking – no – but trying to keep an open mind.)
I have a hard time believing that JA and JP are in any way, shape, form, happy with what’s happening – twins/pregnant or no. These are serious devoted smart actors and for 8, 9, 10 episodes they have been given nothing to DO. The only reason it’s the best job ever is because these CHARACTERS are so rich. But … now?
I’ve felt a couple of spin-off ideas floating around – witch twins – whom I like less and less the more I think about them. It’s Harry Potter magic. Clean, easy, abra-cadabra. Not Meg slicing open a rando’s throat so she can make a call.
I miss the earthiness of the show. Rowena is part of the problem with making magic look easy – as opposed to bloody and threatening and used only as a last resort.
I don’t know.
I feel like there might be some financial issues. For the first time, the show looks cheap to me. Like, just the lOOK of it.
We’ll see.
This is what I think of when I think of what the show’s lost with respect to magic, myth, talismans, mess, darkness, iconic images and shots.
The way it’s shot now has no…..I dunno….chemistry. No life. No substance.
WOW. I had not seen that before.
That was thrilling.
and also yes: such a clear example of what they have lost.
and I know we’ve talked about this ad nauseum – but their BODIES – are so so important. The integrity/strength of their bodies – as well as the vulnerability of their bodies. Soft/hard at the same time. Impenetrable/penetrable. Sam stitching up his own wounds. The focus on their bodies in that beautiful video – hands and arms – I’m just realizing now how much that is NOT a part of the show anymore. at all.
When did that go away? I feel like the Mark of Cain might be the last real time it dealt with FLESH. Sam getting water-tortured at the start of this season felt hopeful – that scene was all about his body and breath and all the rest – but as an integral part of how the show is filmed, even in smaller moments – that fleshy earthy reveling in their bodies is just not present at all.
Huge loss.
The show isn’t in love with them anymore. The show itself is taking those two guys for granted. It’s such a bummer.
ha ha thanks for fixing my html
That video is just incredible, right? In conception and execution. I’ve watched it many times now and it never loses an iota of power. Thrilling and chilling; images like John’s hand on Mary’s belly, blood on their chins and teeth, fireworks, fingers curling reluctantly around the jug o’blood, Cage!Sam in shadow, on and on. I can think of no image this season that contains any of that power or memorability, that puissance and mystery. The show used to talk to itself.
You’re spot on with the lack of attention to FLESH post Mark of Cain. Red Meat was a tremendous episode but that’s because it cared about Flesh and the Winchesters. Everything feels very clean now. I think I’ve said this before here but imo blood is (or used to be) THE key symbol or metaphor in the show, signifying, amongst other things: family and brotherhood, corruption, betrayal, sex, currency, potency, power, fate, boundary-crossing, death, life, magic, communication, gross things, suffering, etc. Despite the torture — despite Mary’s presence — it’s bloodless now.
The show isn’t in love with them anymore.
Yes. This hurts. Speeches about how “we saved the world” and cloying irrelevant Cas monologues are no substitute. That was the 250th episode and it wasn’t ABOUT the Winchesters.
it was CALLED First Blood and Nobody fucken BLED!
I know I’m late to this discussion (finally watched the episode, still haven’t watched the newest one), and reading over this thread, I don’t have much to say that hasn’t already been said…but good God, Jessie, what a video. I’m still reeling. I love the choice to include Meg-Sam’s chilling laugh…back when possession was new and such a threat. Wow. I’m worried about the show, for all of these reasons that you’ve all articulated…but I’m going to hold onto that. Thanks for sharing.
So glad you liked it Bethany, and I couldn’t agree more. Such a loss and definitely something to cling to. I’m in despairing hope mode, I suppose!
Good point about the dumb-ass Rambo title and the zero blood in the episode – and – incidentally – that title is so not who these guys are. Rambo? What am I, a dumb 13 year old boy? No offense to 13 year old boys. But I don’t want the entire WORLD catering to their taste, least of all MY SHOW.
// The show used to talk to itself. //
That’s a really good point.
The total lack of emotional continuity – as though this writing staff has never watched and/or understood old episodes – means the show can no longer talk to itself like that. The “boys” have become generic – and that, most of all, is so devastating.
Red Meat! Yes!!
These guys are HUMAN and their bodies are beautiful and their bodies FAIL them. Their bodies are not indestructible. They DEAL with their bodies – with each other’s bodies – Dean scooping that bullet out of Sam last season – goosebumps, still.
Now we get a montage sequence with Sam doing sit-ups.
what. the. fuck.
oh god, Sam leaping out from behind a tree, it was too embarrassing. This is what I mean by the episode being two crammed into one (an obvious error in writing/structure imo). The idea of S&D hiding and running through a forest, taking out special ops guys in brutal, painful, skin-of-your-teeth ways, getting injured, bloody, hiding in a shack, emotional melodrama as midnight approaches. I don’t see how that COULDN’T have worked. I mean, if you’re going to do it, DO IT.
and don’t even get me STARTED on the shameful one-two fumble of a Cool Hand Luke quote followed by a Watchmen quote.
// don’t even get me STARTED on the shameful one-two fumble of a Cool Hand Luke quote followed by a Watchmen quote. //
Ooh I missed that mainly since I don’t know Watchmen all that well. Remind me? Since I won’t be watching it again.
“I’m not locked in here with you, you’re locked in here with me!” is a line spoken by vigilante Rorschach in prison (comic and movie).
Once again absolving the writers of having to write anything.
Dammit.
I found them competent in this episode…..after that midseason finale descent into close to utter stupidity….I was very grateful to see them competent. I didn’t hate the episode at all, but my emotions were not engaged at all. That has been my main problem with pretty much this season so far.
I liked that Mary called out Cas….somebody needed to. I agree with Paula on the constant shifting of Cas’ s personality…it’s giving me whiplash too.
Yeah, I just don’t care. It’s upsetting. I love these characters.
Yes, Michelle, how is it that there can be *so little* emotion? where has it gone? Can we get Dabb to check under the couch cushions or something?
I would normally be very happy about them running around, silent communication, lethality etc. Their escape from the jail, with their mission orientation and businesslike communication was the closest I got to enjoying the episode, but, as seems to be the norm now, there was no THERE there. LOTUS was a disaster of writing, conception and direction. This was better put-together, which unfortunately just highlights how much we have lost. There were no excuses.
//Mary called out Cas//
I have to confess I wanted to start singing Nothing Compares To You when Cas said that Sam and Dean had been gone for “six weeks, two days, and ten hours.”
I wanted to say, “Cas, why are you still here? Go away.”
and that line was a sop to the Destiel fans.
If even I got it… yeah.
*POOF*Appearing in a cloud of black smoke*
I’ve been summoned by The Mutecpher. I have not seen this episode and I am not sure I will, so I’m not sure how I can contribute. If SPN becomes good again, please let me know. In the meantime, I’m just trying to forget everything that happened in the last months. I’ll always cherish the first seasons, as well as the vampire-porn version that exists in my head (there’s a cross-over with Angel, Spike is there, lots of homoeroticism, some threesomes, but also Wesley loves the bunker and he and I start cataloguing the collection properly. Also, sex in libraries).
That is all. *POOF*
*POOF*
Ditto. Sorry, decided to stop watching after the H***** episode. It was making me sad, and god knows there’s enough real shit to get upset about right now.
Happy to talk forever about all the brilliant previous seasons and characters and whatnot, and I still anticipate each new recap with bated breath. But the snapchat-gimcrack stuff that’s going going on right now? It’s like being offered a second-hand nylon nightie after wearing silk pajamas.
Lyrie, your vampire-library version sounds a blast, btw.
See you elsewhere, folks. Over and *POOF*
I was hoping “Avengers Assemble!” would work. Must be the Nerd Boy in me.
I’ll get on the Kids Are All Right re-cap – maybe it’ll be a good palate cleanser. January has been so wretched (IT’S BEEN THE LONGEST MONTH EVER) that I have had very little brain space for anything other than my East of Eden essay and Justified.
But yeah, what’s going on now makes me sad. That’s why I sound annoyed more often than not.
// *POOF*Appearing in a cloud of black smoke* //
hahahaha
Yes: participation is not compulsory! What’s the fun in THAT?
// If SPN becomes good again, please let me know. //
Ouch. But will do.
Watching is such a depressing experience right now that I’m not sure I want to continue. But I can’t look away!
// as well as the vampire-porn version that exists in my head (there’s a cross-over with Angel, Spike is there, lots of homoeroticism, some threesomes, but also Wesley loves the bunker and he and I start cataloguing the collection properly. Also, sex in libraries). //
That sounds amazing and like the writer’s staff should be taking notes.
I agree with 90% of the things said here. The soul is gone – instead of feeling something when the Winchesters are on screen, now I’m just watching them. I think most of you guys understand what I mean. I asked myself several times during the episode (which barely held my attention) could I really think about giving the show up after 12 years? I talked myself down and decided I was in for the long haul – I still have a lot of love for the characters.
Maybe things seem wonky because this season is so unfocused; for 10 years each season had a “big bad” to root against. I have to say that this version of Lucifer ain’t doing it for me – he is a toothless tiger and I’m not feeling like he’s a threat. There are a bunch of episodes left this season — I’m gonna keep it optimistic for the rest of them.
Pat – I hear you. It’s so WEIRD watching it now and having NO response. It’s so bizarre. Even in the seasons that weren’t very good – the emotion always surged off the screen!
// I talked myself down and decided I was in for the long haul //
I’m in for the long haul too. I have to see how this plays out – I’m almost fascinated in a weird way, like it’s a cliffhanger – how on earth are they going to pull it together? CAN they pull it together?
I so want to be a fly on the wall. They HAVE to know this whole thing is “off” right? But as long as fans are making Gifs and going to cons, do they not care? I CAN’T believe that is true.
// I have to say that this version of Lucifer ain’t doing it for me – he is a toothless tiger and I’m not feeling like he’s a threat. //
Definitely. and I was so looking forward to Rick Springfield!
I wish they were just out catching monsters. Forget the “big bad.” The BMOL are just … Ugh. They’re like a mosquito trapped in your bedroom when you’re trying to sleep.
I had a bit of a family emergency last week (all is okay now) so I didn’t get to watch until last night. And… Yeah…
If it were a different show, I think, it would have been fine. It would have been a perfectly adequate episode of some ensemble crime procedural. But I think Jessie summed it up best – there’s no THERE there.
And the use of the Winchester family theme when Mary and the boys were reunited actually pissed me off. It felt manipulative. Like the show was telling us, “you’re supposed to feel something here” without giving us anything to feel.
And as far as I’m concerned the British MoL needs to just go up in flames. Make them go away, please! I sort of enjoyed the “soft hands” thing, but even that scene was a little too bossy, like, “Look how boorish and uncouth these American hunters are! And how professional and suave the bureaucracy of the British MoL is! NO, LOOK AT IT! WATCH THE HUNTER BELCH AND PICK HIS TEETH AT THE TABLE, DAMMIT!” (Coming from a long line of blue collar workers on both sides of my family, this also felt just a tad insulting.)
(glad to hear things are back on track Natalie!)
I felt the EXACT SAME way about the Winchester family theme! I had a visceral FUCK YOU/OFF reaction.
Glad it wasn’t just me!
(And thank you!)
Natalie – I’m glad to hear everything is okay now!!
Good catch on the Winchester family theme. YES. There was nothing happening in that moment – they have completely mis-used Mary and missed the opportunity of her return – and now they just throw up that theme, hoping it’ll fill in all those unforgivable blanks. I didn’t really notice my lack of response until you mentioned it.
I LOVE that theme.
Stop taking these characters for granted, SPN!! DO BETTER by them.
// like, “Look how boorish and uncouth these American hunters are! And how professional and suave the bureaucracy of the British MoL is! NO, LOOK AT IT! WATCH THE HUNTER BELCH AND PICK HIS TEETH AT THE TABLE, DAMMIT!” //
Yeah. Overdone. and cliched: Prissy English people, rough honest Americans. I’m so bored with the BMOL that I am barely paying attention, honestly.
Now that Billie the reaper is out of the game, I guess her threat of sending the brothers into The Empty is off the table. It was just her promise, not a ‘reapers in general’ thing, right? Not that I wanted it to happen, but there’s another source of suspense taken away from the show.
// there’s another source of suspense taken away from the show. //
I feel the same way. She was so good at suggesting “Listen, guys, I’m not fucking around” – and I wish there had been more made of that. That she had come through on the promises she has been making (threats) since her first stunning appearance.
again, it seems an unimaginative and lazy use of a potential excellent adversary.
and I miss Death tremendously.
The show is so literal now. Now we have witch twins shooting zaps out of their fingertips or whatever. Not the true Dread inherent in the supernatural.
Kids’ stuff.
I honestly wonder if they wrote themselves into a corner with Billie. There was no way to follow through on her threat without ending the show (and I’m assuming they don’t want to end the show with the Winchesters being tossed into the Empty, because they don’t want a fandom revolt), so her character became a problem to be dealt with. And as a result, a promising character was reduced to a deus ex machina tool to get impossible jobs done and make ominous empty threats.
// her character became a problem to be dealt with //
I definitely get that sense. Think of the scene in Red Meat. Such a superb episode but again, they didn’t quite know what to do with Billie. Her threat was so FINAL … and yet … poof. Nothing. No real consequences.
This was very pretty. The title was neat. And Sam’s Marriage and Family Therapy licences finally came through, so go Sam! What an achievement!
In regards to “Regarding Dean”
I liked this one – it had a mix of many elements that brought me to the show and kept me coming back. The brothers working together, taking care of each other, being protective. Lots of funny Dean and worried Sam were a joy to see after the last couple of jarring WTF! episodes.
Pat –
It seemed like the writers wanted to give JA and JP a chance to act. So we had Dean forgetting and speaking int0 the camera, Sam running around fretting. It was not necessarily an “I want to watch that again” episode, but certainly not WTF. Except for Sam facing a powerful family of witches with just “witch killing bullets.” Which I forgot were a thing from the James Marsters/Charisma Carpenter episode. Somebody in the writing room visited a fan Wiki.
//Somebody in the writing room visited a fan Wiki.//
This made me laugh really hard.
Superb comic performance from JA. Also, superb emotional performance from JA. I don’t have a problem with this one at all. I don’t cause if the lore is off, I don’t care if Rowena was a convenient solution—JA was worth it, and Cas wasn’t in it.
My little broomstick cowboy ❤ riding his fake bull. Heart crack.
This one was definitely a marked improvement over the recurring disappointments of this season. It was nice to see the boys not be reduced to scenery. The performances were excellent, and it was the first time in a long time that I actually enjoyed Rowena.
Hi there, long time reader, first time poster ;)
I’m finally posting because I just can’t be silent about this season anymore.
I was so looking forward to Rick Springfield as Lucifer, and I don’t know if it’s that MP put that bar so high, or just the writing doesn’t match the Lucifer we know and love, but that whole mess was hard to watch.
I was also so looking forward to Mary and what that dynamic would be like for Sam and Dean. I was looking forward to really having my heartstrings pulled on while the expectation versus the reality played out of having Mom, a family member back. I was looking forward to the awkwardness of Mom having to adjust to having adult sons. I’m not saying I was expecting a Walton’s Christmas. I’m just saying… I was expecting more than a haircut and peace-out to go find herself. I’m hoping there is more to come…
The two things that I felt they really pumped up going into this season… and so far it’s just bacon in a cold pan. Where is the sizzle?
Someone threw the popcorn in the microwave and forgot to hit start. Nothing is happening!
I’m hoping that the last episode “Regarding Dean” was a freaking reset to let us all take a second to regroup and get back to business. The Family Business – not this BMOL malarkey. Maybe the BMOL is meant to be the corporate antithesis to the “Family Business”?
Hi Amy, great to hear from you!
Nothing is happening!
I know, right?! What the hell! What a huge disappointment.
Everything connected with Lucifer this season can just go take a long walk off a short pier. His appearance in the latest episode had the trappings of a great moment, but the setup this season was no sort of recovery from last season, and my expectations of successful follow through have died, been resurrected, died, come back as a demon, exorcised, reincarnated as human, cut themselves shaving, done a header off a cliff, and been sent into the Empty by this point.
The amnesia episode felt like it could have been from last season, which is a marker of how easy and normal it felt and how great the show is when these guys get a chance to act. JA threw everything at the wall and 99% of it stuck.
Re: Mary, after last night’s episode, I am surrendering any conception of or hope for her presence as an opportunity to examine Sam or Dean, their histories, or what she means to them. At this point, Rowena’s relationship with her child has been investigated more effectively than Mary’s. Instead I’m seeing her story in isolation as one of the Ultimate Mother, idealised, who has turned out to be moderately indifferent to Mothering. She says the words, but her actions and her affect speaks differently. She’s got other stuff going on (Hunterism is much more what her story is about), and Mothering (not in Walton’s terms, as you say, but in whatever complex parent-child configuration the show might have it) is not top of the list.
This is an interesting contradiction and direction in itself despite the hole it’s torn in the fabric of the show and resonates in curious ways with mothers such as Eve or other women with pregnancies that were terrifying or in some way fruitless, unresolved, and unmotherly; and even, if I really squint, is thematically consistent with the show’s obsession with single fathers and asexual reproduction.
So that is where I am with Mary at the moment at least, and I imagine that when she inevitably dies or disappears that it will play out much the same way as Cas’s non-fate did this episode, ie a million boring empty close-ups of actors smelling farts.
Oh, Jessie, your description of what’s happened to your expectations was SO FUNNY! Loved it!
I knew not to expected the Idealized Mother that John, Dean, and Sam had imagined, grieved for, and longed for, but I didn’t expect THIS. Her distance and coldness are very much reminiscent of Samuel Campbell in season 6.
Mary IS indifferent. She’s showed more connection with Asa Fox, Wally, the BMoL, and even Cas than her own sons. That’s painful. Give me Ellen and Jody who are (were) tough yet maternal and definitely caring.
Jessie –
YES. This. All of this. Especially the Mary part. I was so excited to explore those dynamics with her back in the mix and you managed to put into words just about everything that I have been feeling about this arc (or lack thereof). What happened to Dean drinking alone looking at old pictures, and little moments like Mary mentioning what a good father John was and not noticing her sons’ reactions? There is a freaking goldmine here – WHY AREN’T WE DIGGING INTO IT???
//a freaking goldmine// preach it. I just can’t with Mary right now. It’s was such a meaty set-up, and while she wasn’t what I was expecting, at least there were some hints of potential. Now, I’m just mad because she is so disconnected. Ugh. Ugh.
Ew ew ew eeeeewwww. “I love you, you’re family, best days of my life, blah blah”
WHAT HAVE THEY DONE TO MY SHOW?
I actually didn’t hate the episode – I even really enjoyed the Tarantino vibe – but yeah, that moment had me cringing. Yuck.
oh lyrie, oh lyrie! Oh Natalie! Turgid and the worst kind of pseudo-fakeout. I sense that they’ve got Plans for Cas and I can only hope that (sorry everyone) this was the rehearsal for his true death.
Aside from that, and despite my own treatise below, I’m with you Natalie and liked a lot of this episode and have been enjoying seeing Yockey, Glynn and Perez stretch out their story forms and play with tropes, particularly in these last three. I feel that they’re clocking in to much of the grossness I like about the show and are trying to push things into the uncanny or emotional. They can write a tight narrative and produce vivid day-players. I hope they stay on next year. It’s the overall lack of character work and apparent dismissal of (what I see as) the show’s true strengths and heart that I think is the true problem and frankly I think that the people at the top have dropped the ball in terms of support and direction.
I imagine this post might end up sounding naïve, Pollyanna-ish (I have been accused!) or something of an apologist’s interpretation. But I’m going to say it anyway.
As the season started, I personally was feeling “all talked out” with regards to SPN, though it was and still is my favorite show. I watched the early episodes, and came here and read your beautiful recaps of All Hell Breaks Loose and The Magnificent Seven, and I just had nothing to say. Call it fandom fatigue, or a reaction to last year’s ending, or whatever—I was mostly enjoying the episodes, even though recognizing some flaws, while feeling the way you do when you are almost to the end of a roller coaster ride. Jittery, wiped out, all thoughts gone except maybe a bit of relief that everyone’s still alive. That said, I do think there are things to like about the first half of the season.
1) The two-part opener seemed to hit most of the right notes.
2) Both the case and the emotional fallout of The Foundry were very well done.
3) In spite of sidelining Dean, American Nightmare was intense and twisted.
4) I personally loved Asa Fox—especially for the way Jody interacted with all of the Winchesters.
5) I liked Rick Springfield’s portrayal of Lucifer.
6) I felt that Crowley and Castiel were being used in an interesting way that kept them important to the storyline, and still connected to the boys.
7) Samantha Smith is kinda wonderful as Mary.
8) While I don’t think that the mid-season finale was well-executed, it did set into motion a potentially fascinating storyline with the Nephilim baby.
9) In the mid-season opener, I liked the way Sam and Dean worked together without talking, and how this made the episode almost an outsider POV of the boys. It had an action movie feel to it, too, which is unusual for the show, so I appreciated the genre-stretching.
10) And I think they’ve followed that up with 3 very good to outstanding episodes. The bull-riding and the diner conversations alone were worth the price of admission. Jensen was so good in Regarding Dean, and the ep itself was both funnier than the show has been in quite a while and also a heartbreaker. I also appreciate how Stuck in the Middle built on the series’ lore while folding it into the current baby-mama story and the BMoL.
Of course, I understand where you, Jessie, Helena, and apparently the other SPN people here are coming from, too, and I agree that there are some problems. Primarily, I agree that the last two Lucifer centered episodes suffered from an emphasis on plot over characters. Also, I would have like the British Men of Letters to show up more in the opening—though it looks like they are about to take a more active role going forward. I was picturing Mr. Ketch more as a young Michael Caine, so I was disappointed in the marble-eyed James Bond approach. I’ve liked the actor a bit better since, so I’m withholding judgement on that aspect of the story. Maybe the other guy, Mick, will wind up closer to the Caine of my dreams.
A couple of other things:
Magic. Always a problem when storytellers decide to incorporate it, mostly because it requires that they define it and set its limitations (can you tell I’m a gamer who has read a LOT of fantasy fiction?). Early on, pretty much all the magic in the show was blood magic, or the result of making deals with demons or angels. But with the introduction of Rowena, or even before, with the witch/familiar episode back in season 8 (to my mind, the single worst episode of the show), Supernatural has started redefining how magic can work. Henry W. introduced the idea of humans powering spells with their own “soul power” (which I imagine is what the wonder witch twin used in Asa Fox, though it wasn’t completely explained). Rowena and company do employ sigils, blood, and components, but their magic is not tied to sacrifice so much as spellbooks. I think that the showrunners really need to set their parameters once again, and make magic more messy and costly. They took a step in that direction with Lily Sunder, I think, but they could define it further, if coven-type magic is going to continue to play a part.
Also, I hate to say it because I like Ruth Connell and Rowena has grown on me (especially as they’ve toned down her character somewhat), but I think it’s time for Rowena to die for real. Her death scene last season actually could have been the perfect close for her, as she admitted her true feelings about love and then was betrayed by the very person she was trying to give her loyalty to. I was actually sorry they brought her back after that. The main reason, though, is that she has become too powerful. The Book of the Damned can do just about anything, and for the sake of raising the stakes for the Winchesters, it and its wielder need to go.
Second, Mary. I’m of a different opinion about her from most, here—I think the main problem with her relationship to Sam and Dean is that there is no relationship, and the show was smart to realize this and write her off for a bit. The boys grew up without her, and the only mothering Sam ever knew, really, came from Dean. So to them she is nothing but vague memories, John’s stories, and a couple of brief meetings with various versions of her or of monsters manipulating her image. Dean sitting on the kitchen floor looking at old photographs was a beautiful way to relay this emptiness. (By comparison, think of how it would be if John should suddenly reappear! They would have to confront a lifetime of fraught relationships and conflicting emotions with him.)
The situation now is more akin to having a long-lost relative show up without an invite. They know nothing about each other, and the only way to build a relationship is to give it time and not force it—hence Dean playing Words with Friends with her. It’s a way to maintain contact without forcing an intimacy. If last week’s episode is any indication, I do think they will start to draw her into the boys’ orbit more and more as we go on.
OK—this is turning into a treatise! So again on the positive side, I wanted to mention how I feel about the Sam and Dean relationship right now. Sheila said that she didn’t feel the spine there, anymore, the conflicting objectives. I think that’s true. On the other hand, when I look at it, I feel like that may be because in part because the relationship feels resolved. They know where they stand with each other. Apologies have been spoken, and meant. Dean knows that Sam is committed to hunting, and Sam knows that Dean doesn’t see him as a freak. They both know how far they would and will go for each other—and perhaps more importantly, they have both now been in the position of having to let the other go (sacrifice himself) for the greater good. In the face of all that, what else is there to say? If the Bell Jar ™ hasn’t been actually broken, at least there is some fresh air in there, and as a result, the Winchesters have closed ranks, and are working together in a partnership. They are focused on the outside world more than each other. That’s not to say that there might not be conflicts coming up—but they may be more external than internal. (Personally I would love to see them looking even further outside the jar. Maybe starting to build a cohesive hunter/American MoL community. Maybe taking a wife—I think that the series could support that, now.)
Finally, to the question of surface vs. subtext. As I said, I agree that the plot has taken center stage. But I do think the show is working with some deeper themes this year. One is motherhood, in all its forms—think of Rowena, Mary, Jody, Toni Bevell, Lily, the mom in Asa Fox (a really good example of this theme playing under the surface). I’m hopeful that this will come into play more and more as the Nephilim story builds.
The 2nd theme I see is, to quote Dean, “Monsters I get, people are crazy.” Until the last two episodes where the villains were an angel and a demon, respectively, all of the truly bad guys this season have been people—except of course for Lucifer, who was acting on a rather human level in wanting to lash out at his absentee dad. As the BMoL come more into conflict with our boys (and like Mary, I include Cas as one of the boys now) this theme, and its attendant issues of emotional compromise and also black/white thinking versus the gray areas that Sam and Dean have become more accustomed to working in, may become the backbone of the season.
All in all, I think the show is in a rebuilding phase. For the 2nd time in its run, it has closed out a big, multi-season, emotionally taxing arc. And just as I felt, the first time through, that season 6 was an attempt to rebuild and re-structure something new, season 12 is doing the same. Whether it will be ultimately successful, in the way s. 6 was, I can’t say yet, but I am still invested in this, and I refuse to hate-watch it, and I want to see what happens next.
P.S. My son and I finally got to the end of season 5, and he thinks it is their best season. I actually realized on this re-watch that there were a couple of s. 5 episodes that I had in fact only watched once. The Devil You Know, with Brady and Crowley, was one of those, as was 99 problems. Not sure why that is, really—
When we got to the final scene with Sam under the streetlight looking in at Lisa and Dean, my kid burst out at him—“Don’t you do that to him! Let him have his life! Go be a mailman or something. Leave him alone!” Just FYI.
Barb–
I’m so happy that you’re enjoying the season! I am glad to read about what you are liking. I think there’s potential in it and the disconnect between the potential I sense and the show I see has jumped me back here into the comments, and it’s nice to feel chatty about it again, right? I missed that. I don’t mean to harsh your buzz and there are a lot of questions below that are rhetorical and not a demand that you justify your enjoyment :-)
When we got to the final scene with Sam under the streetlight looking in at Lisa and Dean, my kid burst out at him—“Don’t you do that to him! Let him have his life! Go be a mailman or something. Leave him alone!”
Holy crap what a reaction!
Re: Mary.
I agree with you Aslan’s Own & Paula, that her reticence is startling; and Barb, I agree with your thorough assessment and think we’re saying basically the same thing. I honestly don’t care if she’s an asshole who doesn’t want to be a mother to them — in fact, I think that’s pretty great, and I’m enjoying Smith’s internal conflicts and general aura of depression. But as Natalie says: why aren’t we digging into it? For me this is the problem with Mary this season, and the lack of focus on the guys. Do Sam or Dean care at all that she’s not the mother whose very name used to shake Dean to the core?
In the latest episode, for instance, Sam asked Mary how she is, and she says that things never turn out how you want, a wonderful and hurtful line, and then she leaves, and it never occurs to her to reciprocate the question. Awesomely terrible, but like, then the rest of the episode happens, and there’s no weight given to anything.
Am I the only person really confused about the level at which the show understands this as a huge deal? Like, Sam calls her Mom twice at the start of the episode, and then at the end Mary seems to think that Cas is one of her boys as well, and the whole thing is SO WEIRD that I can’t actually tell whether the show thinks it’s WEIRD or not?
So re: Sam.
There’s this thing going on with Sam this season (post torture and sexual assault, ya know) where his entire story in each episode is: every character rocks up for their 2:15pm session with him and he listens gently and gives them a pamphlet on cognitive behavioural therapy and then later on he does something “badass”. And that’s his story. That’s what Sam is “going through.” The absolute nadir was Lily Sunder, which I thought cared so little for Sam as a character that it made me despair. But even when it’s not that bad, I find S12 Sam eerie and bizarre and fascinating in a sickening kind of way. It’s such a strong pattern with him that I’m halfway to being convinced it’s on purpose and that Sam is en route to an epic breakdown or dissociative episode. Regarding Dean is the only time I can recall that he’s expressed something about himself. Like Sheila says above, I feel like I’m Dean and the show is Soulless!Sam and I’m yelling all the time, WTF is going on here?
But for me at least, we’re not doing so well with Dean either. Honestly, has anything psychologically or emotionally interesting happened to either of them since Sam’s outburst in American Nightmare, and excepting the amnesia episode? Is there anything we’ve learned about them? Anything that chilled us, or felt like a revelation? Anything that felt deep and true and elemental, like the end of Swan Song, or of The Purge, or Sam’s first encounter with Lucifer last season? Any indelible image of pain or beauty on the faces of these men? Why aren’t these episodes about Sam and Dean? This is a huge source of frustration for me, and I think, Barb, that that’s why I’m not sensing much of any substance in the Sam and Dean relationship at the moment (and on a personal note, much of my response may be because, in contrast to how you see potential for development, I see only disaster in expanding to more of an ensemble show!).
season 6 was an attempt to rebuild and re-structure something new, season 12 is doing the same…I am still invested in this, and I refuse to hate-watch it, and I want to see what happens next.
I agree here, and it’s been interesting (if, for me, moderately depressing and vastly bewildering) to see how it’s developed, and I’m certainly not hate-watching, although there are certain characters whose appearances makes me long for a stiff drink.
Barb – I’m with you on still being invested in the show and watching every week regardless. SPN has these moments even in the mediocre (or terrible) episodes that can be amazing, and you never know when an episode like Regarding Dean might appear in the season. If you’re a Pollyanna, then I’m right there with you!
“Vastly bewildering” as Jessie calls it is where I’m at right now in S12. I thought I could see the direction they were heading, that this season would be more personal for the Winchester family and I was so excited to see it unfold. Instead the relevations have been confusing or dropped completely.
When I watched American Nightmare, I felt that shift of Something Important happening with Sam’s anger and his connection to Madga, along with the viciousness of BMoL at the end. Honestly, if they thought that Madga and others like her need to be killed, why would they let ex-powers Sam or back-from-the-dead Mary live? Instead, they are rescuing them from prison and trying to half-ass recruit American hunters (and flirting with Cas) – and to what goal? So much potential but the intent and the threat is muddy.
The Tarantino theme was a lot of fun this week, and the parallels reminded me of their tribute to Kubrick back in Playthings. Love it when they push it on storyline or direction. But they are dropping the ball on the three characters I was dying to see more of – Sam dealing with his trauma and his guilt (honestly, when do we see Sam flipping tables and moving beyond being a supportive prop), Dean adapting to human enemies and coming to grips with his mommy issues, and Mary being bad ass and smart, dealing with her grief and not being the perfect mom (Sorry to beat this over the head but where are her hunter instincts about BMoL? Also, she’s networking with all the other hunters but not trusting the best hunters – her sons?)
Even so, I’ll tune in next week :)
EITHER SAM FLIPS A TABLE OR I DO!!!
GODDAMNIT. When Sam finds out about Magda, I expect some busted furniture. Dean isn’t the only one who can reek havoc on lamps/tvs/chairs.
Oh, that gif, Paula! :)
Barb –
I’m still Mulder: I Want To Believe.
But I’m in real danger of becoming Axl: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1_4QKByKSI
I hope for episodes that will make me shout at the screen the way your son did.
//”Go be a mailman or something. Leave him alone!”// I love your son for this, Barb.
I’ll be the Scully to your Mulder, mutecypher.
When I first watched the Cas scene….my reaction was to cringe as well, but when I watched it again…it actually got me thinking and looking at it from a different perspective.
I realized how the Winchesters and their “never ever ever ever shall the words I love you pass from between my lips” attitude has influenced me when watching the show. I remember in season 10 when Sam was talking to Dean about Charlie. He said something to the effect of “She loves you Dean…we all love you.” Hearing that gave me a huge jolt. Anytime the word love is dropped on the show it feels almost wrong somehow and kind of uncomfortable because Sam and Dean don’t and won’t use it.
However, I think many, many people if they were in a moment where they thought they were dying….I love you would be gushing out of them and any words that they were desperate to tell a loved one in their final moments.
Cas is not a Winchester and he has always been shown to be much more free at expressing his emotions. He cares deeply for Sam and Dean and he has expressed that many many times. He thought he was dying. Of course we as viewers knew Cas wasn’t going to die….Misha knew Cas wasn’t going to die…but Cas in that moment thought he was and Misha played the heck out of that scene. I think he played it accurately and after watching it a second time….I don’t think it was necessarily written badly either.
I enjoyed reading your thoughts a lot, guys.
Listen, I had stopped watching because I felt like they betrayed Sam and Dean, basically – that, plus imo a lot of very clunky/unoriginal lines or dialogues, no drama, no depth. But I went back to it not to hate-watch, but because I miss the show! I want to love it – or at least like it, which, at the moment, I’m not.
I have nothing against talking about love, if it’s done well. In this case, it would probably awkward for them. But hasn’t Cas already said the same thing, if not in those words, when he killed Billy? (really? the whole build-up for THAT?) I cringed there too. I think I am done with Cas. I have been for several seasons. His interactions with Mary make me want to cut his tongue. “Silly bonding-urination-blah”SHUT UP.
This last episode, the most interesting character for me was Crowley. Sure, Sam had some awesome moves with the spear, but WHERE IS HE? And Dean? What’s going on with them? No idea. Or maybe nothing.
Well, now I’m just paraphrasing Jessie, so: what she said.
Yes, that’s what I was thinking. He was JUST saying, “You’re family. I care about you,” etc. And that came up last season too where Dean says something similar to Cas when they were driving in the car, I think. It seems unnatural to me. I don’t mind them saying those words; especially as they grow older, perhaps they realize that it’s OK to express their feelings, but I want it to feel right not forced.
Hey. I’m another longtime reader here, feeling the need to comment.
I was meh with much of the pre-hiatus, though I liked the signs of assertiveness and aggression in Sam. Sam’s been ill through most of the second big arc: he was in the Cage, he was out but had no soul, he was having a psychotic break, he was institutionalized, he was in shock because Dean was gone, he was purifying himself of the demon-blood taint that made him feel unclean since childhood (this last is probably very important), he was dying from the Trials, he was possessed and knew something was wrong with him but didn’t know what … It’s fitting. It ought to take years to recover from Lucifer’s Cage.
Now he’s recovered. He’s expressing his whole character, which includes healthy anger and aggression.
So in American Nightmare, he was rightly furious at Magda’s mother. It’s in his character. He’s usually gentle, but he’s also the Sam who would get right in John Winchester’s face and explode.
What really caught my attention, though, was First Blood and the image of the boys in the morgue, lying next to each other but inverted, head to feet, like the shot of them asleep in the Impala last season. But here they aren’t cradled in the Impala, but dead on twin morgue slabs, in a prison where they’ve been subjected to forced Nothingness – isolation, inactivity, stagnation – which Dean states is “worse than hell” and which seems like a clear parallel with The Empty.
I think this is exposition. This is how The Empty will be worse than hell. Yikes. Billy’s dead, but she said in her first appearance that she wasn’t acting alone. Other reapers were with her. The Empty is still waiting for Sam and Dean.
Re Mary: I’ve been upset at her absence, but considered it a mirroring of John’s absence in season one, but with one big change. In season one, one of the worst things about John’s absence was his refusal to communicate, even when Dean phoned him in tears, even when Sam phoned that Dean was at death’s door … they knew he was out there, he’d send coordinates, but he refused all contact. He cut them off. Mary in this season may be elsewhere, but she hasn’t cut them off. Just the fact that Dean can play phone Scrabble with her is like a step toward healing after John’s coldness; yeah, just a small step, but still.
But in this episode?
We’re being shown a Mary who is an obsessed hunter, a loner, who keeps secrets even when it endangers her family – well, we knew she kept secrets, she kept her Azazel deal secret for years – but here she is, keeping quiet about her theft, tick tick tick, even when it means Ramiel is about to go for Sam and Dean’s throats. She keeps vital information back. Ultimately her intentions are good, she’s a loving parent, but she doesn’t play well with others. Who does that remind me of?
John. She’s like John.
Now look at Sam’s reaction in the barn, after Mary’s plan has gone disastrously sideways. He’s at Mary, questioning her, he has a barrage of questions. He’s not angry, more anguished, but if they had been played angrily, his lines would sound very like Sam vs John in season one. It’s excellent Sam characterization.
Dean’s reaction will hopefully follow in later episodes, and will play off Sam’s.
I’m very excited by this. It’s like getting a replay of season one’s major issues. And with added Colt and yellow eyes! Oh god, yes, give us more.
I saw that parallel too between the nothingness of solitary confinement and what awaits them in the Empty. Horrifying. To be aware yet surrounded by utter emptiness. Shudder.
Thanks, Barb!