Initial thoughts:
“Not bad, old man.”
“You too, sunshine.”
Beer bottle clink.
I haaaaaated that.
Ackles, as usual, is doing very interesting work. It’s depth-ful, as everything he does is. Dean isn’t even “in his eyes,” not a little bit, and whatever he is doing doesn’t look like “acting”. He’s inhabiting something, or something is inhabiting him. I enjoyed watching him. It’s pretty intricate what he’s doing: voice, physicality, the look in his eyes, the intonation. I also enjoyed his watch chain.
The AU has just messed everything up. I hate the AU. So now we have the bunker (ARGH THE BUNKER I HATE IT) filled with people, one of whom is Bobby – yay, familiar face – and yet there isn’t the old relationship between Bobby and Sam. So we get Bobby, but we don’t get everything ELSE. I mean, this just seems like a dumb and pandering choice.
Mary continues to be a huge problem for me. Mary is a symbol for me of every single thing that has gone wrong in this series since those disastrous final three episodes of Season 11.
The huge fight scene was awful. The music underneath, the sudden slo-mo. One of the high points of the series was the fight scenes: beautifully choreographed, and so well acted that it actually felt like it was going on. Visceral. What happens when you break the action down, when you slow it down, when you chop it up into little edited pieces – you lose a layer of reality. And the experience becomes … empty. Went into that here.
I don’t mind Sam and Dean being apart. I don’t mind the prospect of Dean being gone for a while. I think it could be very very interesting. At least it’s a break in what has become some pretty tiresome action. It also gives me a chance to watch Ackles take on another role, something we haven’t seen from this actor in 14 years. It’s exciting.
Padalecki did wonderful work. He was the center of the episode. I liked the scene with Mary in the car, mainly because he was resisting her pep talk. I realize that Mary is a huge blind spot for the team in charge currently. I think they’re really really proud of making Mary a “badass,” of having her not be “just” a mother – and they don’t realize what a huge betrayal of the pilot this choice is. It’s different than the time-travel episodes when we learned Mary’s backstory. In those episodes, Mary got to be a hunter, but she also got to be a loving mother and wife. She was hugely vulnerable. She was funny. All of that is gone. And my sense is that they’re PROUD of this, they think what they’re doing is “feminist.” Will get brownie points from us. But without Mary as an emotional galvanizing force (whether she’s onscreen or not), the series loses SO MUCH. Padalecki’s resistance to her “everything’s going to be okay” felt really really strong – and I so wished for some kind of explosion, or at least acknowledgement – “You don’t get to give me advice, you died, you came back and then left us again – I’ll work with you but I’m pissed off at you and blah blah blah” … I FELT it in his reaction. But I have no trust that the team in charge are even aware of those possibilities, so proud are they of turning Mary into some dumb action hero, bursting through the door with her gun.
The true possibilities of Mary – what she represents – do not seem to be apparent to those writing her.
It’s hard for me to get past it.
Hi Sheila (and fellow SPN fans). I’m so glad that you’re still giving us a forum to talk about the show, even when we’re not so happy with the outcome.
This premiere was so not engaging. They’ve added a bunch of characters that I don’t care about – these newbies in the bunker don’t engender any empathy and need to go. Mary and Bobby romance? No thanks. New Crowley was not menacing nor charismatic and just highlighted how much Mark Sheppard added to the show. I was excited to see what JA brought to the Michael character, but I was not feeling JA’s new voice and that slow cadence. Sam was supposed to be sad, tired and worn down but JP just seemed like he was going through the motions. Cas and Jack didn’t even make an impact.
The story line with the brothers separated/one possessed has been told multiple times on SPN and the long-time viewers have been down these roads before. Sorry, but can TPTB expect fans to be excited to see this retreaded hash again? I love the brothers but I think the idea well has dried up. Keeping fingers crossed for the future….
// I was not feeling JA’s new voice and that slow cadence. //
Oh, see, I loved it.
He had the formality down – kinda like Sam being Gadreel – the way Misha was before Castiel loosened up a bit.
Honestly, I was ready to go wherever the show wanted to go – but NOT at the expense of all of the emotional baggage they’ve built up over 11, 12 seasons. Bringing Mary back was a bust. Now we have Bobby back – but he’s not really Bobby. In my mind, this feels really pandering. Same with Charlie, Kevin Tran, the rest.
How about you develop some new characters, with the same care those characters were developed?
and Mary as a “regular” withOUT addressing the elephant in the room of their whole LIVES without her and all of their issues?
I just have no interest in it.
Yes! Yes! Just yes! Why don’t the current showrunners and writers get this?!! I feel like Supernatural has declined into some campy, rween version if what it once was. Only J2 keep me coming back.
[Apologies to Mark Pellegrino fans]
Forgot to add: Not thrilled to see that Lucifer/Nick was also in the bunker. I started getting sick of MP’s acting (as Lucifer) during the last 2-3 seasons and having him hanging out and interacting with “his son” will give my FF button a workout. Also, more than likely he’ll factor into getting Michael out of Dean. More air time ::sigh::
Oh actually – that was one part I DID like. I too was sick of where Lucifer went last season – but the possibilities of him coming back as that guy we first met … even though it makes no sense … it has a lot of potential.
Overall, the premiere was all over the place. I could have used more time with Dean and Jo. That scene seemed to have some juice. But then it was back to the bunker and all those newbie characters I care nothing about running around putting weapons together. It’s the roadhouse all over again.
//The true possibilities of Mary – what she represents – do not seem to be apparent to those writing her.
It’s hard for me to get past it.//
Sigh.
I haven’t watched yet. I actually stopped watching after the midseason finale last season and haven’t gotten caught up yet.
And I can’t get past Mary, either. If it felt like the writers were building to something with her, it would be different. But she’s so one-dimensional. Have they EVER addressed, I don’t know, having her mourn for missing her boys’ childhoods, or the fact that they grew up in the hunting life, or her coming to terms with John’s abuse of the boys, or, I don’t know, HER DEAL WITH AZAZEL???
It’s so disappointing that something I loved so much has fallen so far from what it used to be.
// Have they EVER addressed, I don’t know, having her mourn for missing her boys’ childhoods, or the fact that they grew up in the hunting life, or her coming to terms with John’s abuse of the boys, or, I don’t know, HER DEAL WITH AZAZEL???
//
None of it.
NONE. Why even bring her back?
It makes me think they don’t know why she was important in the first place – OR – even worse – just are unaware of all of the rich possibilities in her return. It could have gone so many different ways. I’m not attached to one particular scenario – but anything other than total avoidance and Mary now being a “badass” – and no conversations about their lives, or her role or lack thereof in her lives.
The missed opportunity just sits there on the screen.
Worst of all, it doesn’t give our two leads anything to DO. the rich tortured emotional subtext of the Winchester family is missing – and if THAT’S missing then why the hell should I even care?
It really is such a bummer.
“The rich tortured emotional subtext of the Winchester family” – you know, I was just discussing with someone the scene from Dead Man’s Blood near the end where John comes in the motel room and says, “You ignored a direct order back there” and Sam says, “Yes, sir,” and Dean says, “Yeah, but we saved your ass” and Sam shoots him a quick side glance. There was so much unstated tension in that scene; it revealed so much about their relationships. The show used to have so much of that. They could have done something with Mary. They haven’t.
It’s hard for me to get past what they did with Mary. It’s even harder since she’s still a character in the damn thing. So there she is, just sitting there on the screen, an extremely uninteresting actress, adding nothing to anything.
Think of what the IDEA of her provided for years and years. The actress playing her didn’t need to be a good actress, because she was filtered through the boys’ imaginations and nostalgia. Now we don’t even have the IDEA of her anymore – and without that charge, so much else is lost.
If nothing else, it really shows how fantastic Kripke’s initial structure was. All the building blocks were there in the pilot – and they were mined for every bit of their usefulness until end of Season 11.
Even though it sucks to see Mary being so boring – and not doing anything in the story – it is a testament to Kripke’s idea. They got so much mileage out of Mythical Mom.
Have they EVER addressed, I don’t know, having her mourn for missing her boys’ childhoods, or the fact that they grew up in the hunting life, or her coming to terms with John’s abuse of the boys, or, I don’t know, HER DEAL WITH AZAZEL???
This is SO WEIRD Natalie and Sheila!! I just don’t understand it! It’s fruit ripe for the picking — it’s right there! And okay, okay, let’s accept that who she is as a character is a kind of hunting machine with a wavy haircut and a set of pseudo-motherly platitudes — if this version of Dead Inside Mary was done on purpose, then the story is Sam and Dean’s reaction to that — but they just zinged off into the other direction! I don’t get it! Dean’s brief don’t even pretend reaction to her saying “I know what you went through to get here” after Sam got killed last season was gold, that was the good stuff, it was alive! It was real! More of that, please please pleaaaaaaase.
I sort of thought her saying, “He is out there scared and alone. I know. I know that he might never come back” was a touch on her experience being scared and alone (except she wasn’t alone except by her own choice; she ran away from her sons to jump into bed with the BMoL and Ketch in particular.)
When Amara brought her back and we saw her fail to live up to the idealized image we’d seen imagined by John, Dean, and Sam all these years, I thought it was interesting choice, defying our expectations of who she was. But they didn’t DO anything convincing with that potential. I thought her connections with Cas and Jack were more motherly than Dean and Sam which is so incredibly sad because they’ve longed for her their whole lives. Just think of Dean’s heaven – in the kitchen with her making sandwiches for him – or his imagination of her in the djinn’s world or Sam’s demon-blood detox hallucinations of her.
Yes! For these reasons I find her a really interesting character — but only in a meta kind of way and the fact that it never really made a difference to Sam and Dean….. absolutely deadly.
I suppose there were those episodes at the start of 13 where her absence caused some angst and emotion.
“He is out there scared and alone” feels like a pretty curious line now that you lay it out like that! Not something you’d normally think about in reference to Dean. Maybe she was projecting, as you say.
// I thought her connections with Cas and Jack were more motherly than Dean and Sam which is so incredibly sad because they’ve longed for her their whole lives. Just think of Dean’s heaven – in the kitchen with her making sandwiches for him – or his imagination of her in the djinn’s world or Sam’s demon-blood detox hallucinations of her. //
Aslan’s Own – all very interesting observations. I totally agree. Like you say – I think it would have been fascinating if her unwillingness to be a mom had actually been addressed. and not have her bullshit “I want to devote myself to getting rid of monsters forever so my sons can have a normal life” be treated as gospel – like, come on. It’s like the show didn’t interrogate her – the way it used to interrogate all the characters – John – Bobby – Sam – Dean – whatever plot thing they were going through was secondary to the emotional storms it brought UP in them.
The Mary thing …
Imagine what Sera Gamble would have done with that.
// if this version of Dead Inside Mary was done on purpose, then the story is Sam and Dean’s reaction to that — but they just zinged off into the other direction! I don’t get it! //
Yes, it makes no sense to me. Like, I don’t even understand the impulse. I think it might have something to do with wanting to avoid the “stereotype” of “mother” – and get brownie points from female viewers – YUK – but in so doing they have a big fat nothing onscreen, AND they haven’t written Dean and Sam to have any REACTION to it.
Side note: I did feel Jared was reacting to it in that Impala scene. He seemed truly irritated by her, totally cut off from her, annoyed – even way beyond the circumstances of the moment. But how much more would the moment have landed if he had said, “Listen. You may be my mother but I never knew you. You came back and then you left me AGAIN. Just be quiet, please.” Or whatever.
Interesting reaction, Sheila. As you say, Ackles and Padalecki know what they’re doing and they are so good, that they make even the filler stuff seem interesting. I loved the opening scene with Ackles. As you say, it was not Dean at all. But I also think Padalecki is not exactly Sam or at least not the Sam that we are used to. I expected to be intrigued by Ackles’ work but I was pleasantly surprised in the way that Sam is portraying Sam’s emotional growth which began in the last and next to last episodes last season. How is Dean going to react to Sam being more equal then he has ever been? Will Sam go back to the “younger brother” role or will they divide responsibilities with Dean continuing as a hunter and Sam becoming more of a man of letters. That is what interesting to me and I hope that they explore that further.
The fact that the episode was not great doesn’t really bother me because I wasn’t expecting great. For the past four seasons, I’ve been recording SPN to watch it on my time and in my way. The draw for me has always been the relationship between the Winchesters so I usually watch the scenes between them and fast forward past the rest of the episode, stopping only to see where the plot goes and sometimes I don’t even bother to do that. I’m not interested in Mary, Bobby, Nick/Lucifer, Gabriel, the baby/junior hunters, etc., etc., etc. I’ve never been a Castiel fan and I don’t really miss Crowley. I find the character of Jack interesting because the actor could have totally ruined it and so far, he is doing a good job. Everybody except Dean and Sam Winchester are supporting characters, created to support the main characters. According to the lore, even Bobby was supposed to be a one-off and he’s been there for 10+ years.
I watch SPN the way I used to watch The West Wing. I watched every second of the first three seasons and for the rest of its run, I taped it and watched Martin Sheen and Allison Janey and Richard Schiff because good acting is always entertaining, no matter what dreck surrounds it. [Think of Michael Caine and his heir apparent, Jeffrey Irons].
I think everyone should get strapped for the rest of the ride. The producers have already said that the old rules won’t apply so they are clearly changing the rules to support whatever plot twists they’re planning. I mean, the Arcangel blade kills the angel, but not the host? Really? Since when?
Dean/Michael picks vampires as the inheritors of the earth. Did he not notice that in the AU that the starving vampires who were running out of human victims because of the Apocalypse became vicious and uncontrollable?
Why is Nick/Lucifer even in the bunker? Ship his butt back home or to a very expensive shrink. Meg remembered everything her demon made her do, but Nick only remembers bits and pieces? Really?
Oh, well.
Dean/Michael picks vampires as the inheritors of the earth. Did he not notice that in the AU that the starving vampires who were running out of human victims because of the Apocalypse became vicious and uncontrollable?
Carolyn this is a great point that completely passed me by! I don’t think I really understand what Michael wants but vampires seem to be the least practical way of achieving it, whatever it is.
Oh, this is a really good point. Have to admit the moment with Michael and the vamp was my least favorite part and you hit the nail on the head. Michael knows vamps, they aren’t some mystical creatures that suddenly deserve to be chosen. It was an odd story choice.
Carolyn – I truly hear what you are saying and agree with all of it. I too have adjusted my expectations – and usually find something of interest to focus on (in this one it was Sam’s whole thing, and also the scene between Dean and Jo.)
I know we all love the show here. I miss it. :(
Maybe once it’s all over it’d be interesting to write an analysis of where it went wrong and why. Not so much the backstage stuff in re: showrunners, but in terms of story structure, plot, mood, the whole thing. It might be an interesting exercise – but I’d definitely need more perspective.
// I mean, the Arcangel blade kills the angel, but not the host? Really? Since when? //
Right?? Come ON.
// Ship his butt back home or to a very expensive shrink. //
hahahaha
//Maybe once it’s all over it’d be interesting to write an analysis of where it went wrong and why. Not so much the backstage stuff in re: showrunners, but in terms of story structure, plot, mood, the whole thing. It might be an interesting exercise – but I’d definitely need more perspective.//
I might sound arrogant in saying this, but I don’t think there is a real mystery as to when the show went wrong. I think the answer is really simple and similar to what happened with The West Wing lost Aaron Sorkin or when Michael Mann left Miami Vice or when Dick Wolf decided to franchise Law and Order. I don’t know a thing about the business of TV but it seems apparent that lightning strikes only for a brief period. You find a great premise, take the time to find strong writers to support the story and then find the actors to present the story. You need all three to make the magic. And no one can maintain the magic for long. I’m thrilled if I get 3 good years out of a series. Thrilled. And if it doesn’t make money, it’s gone because TV and movies were not created for altruistic purposes. Even Shakespeare needed a sponsor.
Carolyn – oh for sure! That’s why I said not so much “backstage” stuff – i.e. who was in charge, the decisions made by the network, the fatigue of doing the same show for 10 years etc. – but in terms of Story and how a story operates. This is not just to complain about a show not being what I want it to be. I just find it interesting – because so much of it is the same, but it just feels different – and I’m interested in how that happened. I think most of us felt something weird went on in the final 3 eps of Season 11 – but it’d be interesting (for me anyway) to unpack how the story itself derailed. I do this all the time as a critic – like, “Okay, so it’s clear what they’re going for, but it doesn’t work for me, and why.” Some of the issues with SPN are technical – other things are clear misfires – which has happened throughout the series, really – you’re not going to hit a home run every time. There are some people who thought Lisa and Ben was a misfire! (I don’t agree, but I know people who feel strongly about it.) I think Rowena was a misfire. She should have had 3 or 4 episodes and then vanished.
Like you, I’m happy when a series is good for 3 or 4 years – and thrilled when it goes beyond that (The Sopranos, 6 Feet Under, Mad Men … The Americans … X-Files … these are my picks – although these all – except for X-Files – had shorter seasons too, a crucial difference.)
Supernatural’s dropoff in quality, though, is pretty extreme (in my opinion) and I think it’d be worthwhile (once I have more perspective) to do a re-watch from Season 11 on out to pick apart why I think that is (based only on what’s onscreen).
and for sure: lightning struck in those early SPN seasons! Here we are, 14 years later, still talking about it. That’s pretty rare!
True.
I love the opportunity to come back here to read everyone’s thoughts! It’s so nice to know I’m not alone in being quite simply unable to let go the mistakes they’ve made the last two seasons and the way they continue to impact the show. Would I be happier if I could? Probably! But I can’t. I can’t let go of this decision to turn over so much of the show to the Ensemble Players, especially when there is nothing going on with those players. Is there ever gonna be any engagement with these people as paramilitary refugees of an annihilated world or is it always gonna be this anodyne copacetic pep talk hour, plus machine guns? (and don’t get me started on what they decided to do with an actual refugee in the opening scene!) I am so! sick! of! pep! talks! Jack got what, like, three or four this episode? Come on! I like the character but he’s not exactly the lifeblood of the show, and I can’t say I’m excited about any more scenes of sad-sack Cas counselling him through his various power issues.
There’s so much rich metaphorical stuff they could be using. The refugee thing. Alienation. What Do People Want (I like at least that we have a clear idea of What Sam Wants!). Sam is now dealing with three people from his past who are no longer who they were to him (Mary, Bobby, and Nick/Lucifer — and Dean to come). They gave up on exploring Mary and S&D post 12.03. Bobby is some balsa wood with a beret stapled to it. But I liked that they took his relationship to Lucifer/Nick seriously even though it didn’t really make much sense to have him there.
Sam’s storyline had drive and purpose and I enjoyed it. My attention was fully captured. Thought the Impala scene was great and I like that everything seems to come across as superficial from Sam’s perspective (because it feels superficial from mine too). He’ll deal with what’s at hand but he’s not interested in any of it — even his pep talk with Jack had a level of disengagement. He was mostly just DONE and I’m really looking forward to seeing more of that!
The fight — oh man. It’s like they’ve forgotten how to choreograph and shoot fights any more. Excruciating to watch. I was so embarrassed. That shot from Cas’s perspective where all the day players were punching ineffectually down at the camera was so, so bad — and then it got worse. This is the opening episode! They’ll never have as much time and space to work on their fights as they did here! Jeez, that’s ominous.
I’m grappling with my reaction to the Michael scenes, which was, a pure lack of reaction or emotion. I really felt nothing! There was no ambition to those scenes, no sense of power or purpose! I could see what JA was going for — I thought it worked well, for what it was — but nothing jumped for me. Nothing gave me chills — nothing had poetry. The script and the way it was filmed treated him like just another Big Bad Guy with a costuming quirk. It was bloodless — which is fine, for Michael, as a character, but the filmmaking can’t be bloodless as well or you end up with dead air. And this was from TJW! Which makes me worry more.
I suppose that’s the key word for me with this episode and the last couple seasons: bloodless. Who knows where the transfusion is going to come from anymore. I’m hoping for a lot of monster-of-the-week episodes that give them a chance to go nuts, visually, and spend some time with Sam and Dean.
Sorry to be such a downer (and at such length), guys! Glad to be back here with you going through it together and thanks for the space to work out just what I think is going wrong. Even though it’s a bummer to see the show like this I always find it interesting to poke at what works and what doesn’t. And it gives me an even greater appreciation for what went right before season 12.
I have to give you a tip of the hat for your hilarious description of Bobby as “some balsa wood with a beret stapled to it”. That’s gold.
:D
I love Jim Beaver! But this Bobby — like all the alt-world people — is so bleh. Not interesting in his own right and doesn’t activate anything in Sam or Dean. Nothing plays off their one-sided history. Do we have any sense at all from last season or this how Sam might feel about having Bobby-not-Bobby around? A Bobby who doesn’t even know Dean to miss him? Who seems to be attempting the mack on his mother?
Dabb and Singer and Co don’t even seem to care that we as viewers might care about these differences. He’s just a familiar face. It feels lazy and pandering. It drives me nuts!
// I am so! sick! of! pep! talks! //
Jessie – hahaha I know! Enough!!
// Bobby is some balsa wood with a beret stapled to it. //
Oh my God.
// But I liked that they took his relationship to Lucifer/Nick seriously even though it didn’t really make much sense to have him there. //
I agree with this. Even just the look on JP’s face as he approached the bed …
I don’t even remember what Rowena’s status is. I dread her return.
// I like that everything seems to come across as superficial from Sam’s perspective (because it feels superficial from mine too). He’ll deal with what’s at hand but he’s not interested in any of it — even his pep talk with Jack had a level of disengagement. He was mostly just DONE and I’m really looking forward to seeing more of that! //
Yes! You put this perfectly. It was his sense of disinterest in his mother that was kind of amazing. And complex. What on earth could Sam’s real feelings be about Mary? I mean, the show short-changed him back in Season 12 – when he was being all lovely and understanding instantly after she bailed on them. It made no sense, story-wise.
I wish I could at least understand WHY they have made these choices. I can’t SEE it onscreen – and I suppose that’s 80% of my fascination with the show now, sadly. I’m trying to figure out “Okay. So this is what they think we want to see, obviously. And … WHY do they think that?”
// They’ll never have as much time and space to work on their fights as they did here! //
Ouch. Yeah. Good point. The fight scenes have always been excellent, even in less-than-good episodes. A huge part of the appeal of the show. And what was the MUSIC underneath the scene? My God, it was so so bad, the whole thing. It pains me to say this. But I was completely mortified watching it.
// It was bloodless — which is fine, for Michael, as a character, but the filmmaking can’t be bloodless as well or you end up with dead air. And this was from TJW! Which makes me worry more. //
I worry that I think back on those scenes and all I remember is him saying “What do you want?” to people. I’m not sure what’s going on. At all. I felt the scene between him and Jo in the alley was the standout in the Michael sections.
I have no problem with a long-running show switching stuff up. They’ve done it all along. They sent Sam into the pit. He came back changed, and stayed changed. They put Dean in a domestic relationship. They brought in angels. They killed Bobby. They burned down Bobby’s house. They did all KINDS of radical things – necessary things – to keep the story going and to keep the stakes high. Much of it worked gorgeously well. But the underlying structure was still always there: the show was always about Sam and Dean. That’s the anchor. And it was a hell of an anchor – and we could get to know and love other characters – Ellen and Jo, Charlie, Garth, Castiel, Bobby – because the structure was so solid. These people came into the show, enriched it, etc. – but that could only happen because that anchor of Sam and Dean was so there.
That seems to have vanished – and that’s the thing you can’t really work around.
This is why Jack’s whole journey seems totally adrift – and unimportant – except when Sam was investing in him – as a way to usher a “freak” like himself into being a healthy member of society – knowing what it feels like to be labeled a freak, treated weird – all that stuff going on with Sam.
But focusing so much on Jack – him being without his powers, getting beaten up, sulking, trying again … it feels like they’re trying to appeal to a teenage audience SOLELY through Jack. If that makes sense.
cosign everything here!
What on earth could Sam’s real feelings be about Mary?…. the show short-changed him back in Season 12 – when he was being all lovely and understanding instantly after she bailed on them. It made no sense, story-wise…..I wish I could at least understand WHY they have made these choices. I can’t SEE it onscreen
Yup yup yup. What are his feelings about her — and hers about him? Does she even differentiate between Sam and Dean? I know I’ve said this before but she must have doubled or tripled John’s appearances by now and we still have no idea about any of this! In other seasons some of these choices like him being friendly and understanding might have been surprising-initially-off-putting?-but-intriguing choices that developed into something deep. But no follow-up.
But focusing so much on Jack – him being without his powers, getting beaten up, sulking, trying again … it feels like they’re trying to appeal to a teenage audience SOLELY through Jack. If that makes sense.
It does, and this feeling came through strongly in these first two episodes, although I don’t know if it’s teens in particular or fans who enjoy the vibe of a ‘found-family ensemble’ that you find in most SFF TV. That’s not what I want from the show but I think it is what Dabb wants, or at the very least it’s Dabb being unable to find a creative, meaningful solution to JA and JP scheduling demands? I’m just guessing. While Jack was one of my favourite things about last season I’m not interested in him as a character in his own right, carrying personal storylines of apparently equal weight :-(
Sheila I was so happy to see this post! I agree with Pat…even if the show outcome isn’t what I always want, coming here to discuss with everyone is still one of my favorite things.
My attitude towards the premier was unfortunately pretty meh. I didn’t despise it, but I certainly didn’t love it. I didn’t feel much of anything. Now I did appreciate the wonderful acting from JA and JP both. They, as usual, did a wonderful job.
I spent this past summer doing a rewatch of season 1. That maybe wasn’t such a great idea before going into the current season! Much of what is missing from the show now was made glaringly obvious when doing the rewatch.
I miss the Impala actually being the third main character of the show instead of a background prop, I miss the cheap hotels. I miss conversations that DON’T contain the phrases “because that’s what we do” “we save the world” or any variation therein. I miss Mary being dead. (Only in Supernatural can you utter a phrase like that and it make sense. It’s harsh, but unfortunately how I feel) I miss Bobby with all my heart and will continue to miss Bobby. AU Bobby is not the character I love nor will he ever be. Just because I may love a particular actor/actress in a role does not mean I want him/her back as an imitation character. It feels cheap and pandering and I have more depth as a fan of the show to accept it.
Jensen’s performance as Michael was interesting. There was not one trace of a hint of Dean in him at all. There wasn’t really enough of him in the episode to form that much of an opinion of him yet. I liked the scene the best with him and Jo, but it was all too brief and the episode focused to much on characters that I could care less about. (AU hunters, Mary, Maggie etc.)
The Crowley wannabe gave an ok performance, but it’s getting extremely annoying. They got rid of the character of Crowley and I assume it was so they could go in a different direction, but they haven’t. All they have done so far is bring in different actors to play the exact same type of role and none of them have managed to do it with the same level of skill and depth that Sheppard did. Demons have become as lukewarm as angels and they need to either make them scary, menacing, and actually evil again or dump them.
Jared gave a fantastic performance as Sam and he saved the premier for me from being a total bust. I enjoyed his interaction with Nick. Not quite sure where in the heck they are going with that one or how they are going to even begin to give an explanation that is remotely plausible as to how Nick could still be alive, but watching those two actors together was pure gold. Pellegrino did not give a hint of any of that twisted intimacy that was always present in Lucifer’s interactions with Sam and Jared did an amazing job conveying trauma and fear, but also kindness and respect when confronting the vessel of his worst nightmare.
They wrote Cas and his powers, or lack thereof, as recklessly as usual, throwing canon out the window to further a plotline. Angels can see the demon inside the human vessel that is being possessed…or at least they always could before.
I did like the quiet moment at the end between Cas and Sam though. You could see the defenses drop from both of them in that moment. They were real with each other and not putting on the fronts they typically show in front of others. The years of history with each other was evident in that moment and I loved it. Cas is the one person in this whole mess that gets what Sam is really going through because he was there through the whole apocalypse 1 and the aftermath. They both know the true depth of trouble that Dean is in and that quiet shared knowledge of what they know and the support for each other and the determination to save Dean was very present in that whole scene.
Anyway, I’m obviously anticipating Sam and Michael’s interactions coming up and I’m very curious as to how long Dean will be gone. Unfortunately, so far Michael isn’t anywhere near as entertaining as Demon Dean or Souless Sam so I’m not sure where the much, much, much needed humor is going to come from.
Michelle – what a great comment.
// I miss the Impala actually being the third main character of the show instead of a background prop, I miss the cheap hotels. I miss conversations that DON’T contain the phrases “because that’s what we do” “we save the world” or any variation therein. I miss Mary being dead. //
So true, of all of this.
// and the episode focused to much on characters that I could care less about. (AU hunters, Mary, Maggie etc.) //
I know. It’s maddening.
// All they have done so far is bring in different actors to play the exact same type of role and none of them have managed to do it with the same level of skill and depth that Sheppard did. //
Yeah, this is a good point.
They allowed Crowley to fizzle out – having him sit around for a season and a half bitching about his mum (yet another way that Rowena has been so detrimental to the show) – losing all of his effectiveness – and then when he’s killed it’s kind of a non-event. It was such a shame because he added so MUCH to the show when he was an effective part of it. It felt like they got rid of him because they couldn’t figure out what else to do. Or they were like “Okay, time for something new” – without realizing that what they HAD was fantastic and maybe didn’t need to be changed? Why get rid of Crowley and then replace him with …. a fourth-rate Tennessee Williams character in a white suit with a scarred face? Like … why? It feels pointless.
You wanna know how to fix Crowley? Get rid of Rowena.
// Pellegrino did not give a hint of any of that twisted intimacy that was always present in Lucifer’s interactions with Sam and Jared did an amazing job conveying trauma and fear, but also kindness and respect when confronting the vessel of his worst nightmare. //
Yes, I liked this too.
// Unfortunately, so far Michael isn’t anywhere near as entertaining as Demon Dean or Souless Sam so I’m not sure where the much, much, much needed humor is going to come from. //
Yes, good point!
I’m so glad that Supernatural is still being discussed here! Agree profoundly on Mary, and that horrendous fight scene. (Were there strobe lights? Why am I remembering strobe lights? Ugh.) I liked Jensen Ackles’s new formality – he seemed to take care over each consonant. Very un-Dean. I’m more interested in what he builds into that character than what the writers end up writing for him.
When Castiel said, “Because that’s what we do,” I groaned out loud. And then I spent the next ten minutes puzzling over why the words “WE GRIND” inexplicably popped into my head, wondering if it was some inappropriate song lyric buried in my subconscious. …Until I realized I was remembering a comment from Jessie (probably a year old by now??) summarizing the bizarre pluckiness of seasons 12-13. That comment had some staying power, Jessie. (And that damn line is still being recycled into the scripts!)
Terrible fight scenes and lazy writing choices aside – was I the only one who noticed an abundance of close ups for Sam’s Hands? Turning door knobs, packing supplies, applying bandages. Maybe I’m accepting very small victories now, but I consider that a win. That, and Sam’s resistance to the “comfort” (platitudes?) Mary had to offer in the Impala – that felt very true and very earned.
It’s really nice to see people showing up to discuss here, after all these years.
Bethany –
// (Were there strobe lights? Why am I remembering strobe lights? Ugh.) //
Oh my God, were there?? I blocked it out already.
// I’m more interested in what he builds into that character than what the writers end up writing for him. //
Me too. I can already barely remember any damn thing he said. But I do remember the voice and the expression in his eyes. We’ll see.
// When Castiel said, “Because that’s what we do,” I groaned out loud. //
Ha!! I remember thinking halfway through the ep, “Huh, we haven’t had one ‘Because that’s what we do’ line yet!” I spoke too soon.
WE GRIND. hahahahaha!!!
// Maybe I’m accepting very small victories now, but I consider that a win. That, and Sam’s resistance to the “comfort” (platitudes?) Mary had to offer in the Impala – that felt very true and very earned. //
Yes, I agree – his reaction to her was extremely organic – just a wall of resistance to her words. Irritation. He’s just OVER it.
Yes, freaking strobe lights! I was thinking, “Do I smell toast?”
haha Bethany good memory! It’s not a good sign when the original starts to blend with the parody!
Love your observations on his hands. The more I think about the Sam story in the premiere the more I appreciate it: he didn’t go full-on scary like he did when Dean was a demon — I liked seeing him locked-down but constantly having to deal with things he didn’t want to. It was a nice and fresh dynamic.
I want to like supernatural again and I figure you, Sheila and other posters on this site will have a well thought out opinion. I made the mistake of reading an interview with Dabb where he claimed that this season other characters will finally be able to breathe again because Dean is absent. So I am having a hard time becoming invested in the Michael story line( no matter how well Ackles is playing him) because I feel no real time has been invested into creating a creative coherent story other than as a way to have Dean out of the picture to allow the other characters to flourish.
WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK? As if characters being together, as if fucking CONFLICT was not what allowed characters to flourish! We don’t need them to breathe, we need them to SUFFER. What kind of an idiot is he? Why is he allowed to write?
Oh, Cordelia, I am so sorry – obviously, I was not yelling at you.
// We don’t need them to breathe, we need them to SUFFER. //
I want to send this as a telegram to the writers’ room.
Ha ha, I dug up this post to see if anyone had replied to my last comment – I was sort of embarrassed by my burst of anger with this original comment. I never saw your reply, Sheila – so funny!
Cordelia – this makes ZERO sense to me.
He IS the show. Who cares about “other characters”? Also, WHAT other characters? Cas? Jack? Seriously, we’re not THERE for them – they’re interesting only in relation to Sam & Dean.
sigh.
Maybe it’s my imagination but in recent seasons it seems as if the writers actively dislike Sam & Dean.
They regularly create scenes where one or both of the brothers lose fights to a less experienced opponents, often a tiny female. They have them making amateurish hunting mistakes. They have them making ridiculous statements that “our” Sam & Dean would never make (“we’re the ones who saved the world” – really?!!).
It’s as though they’re jealous of the characters and get even by douching them up. Or maybe it’s just me. ??
Hi, how is everyone doing?
I was scanning the thread, while trying to avoid spoilers, just to get a sense of whether I want to keep watching. I did not mean to post but then …
And by spoilers, I don’t mean plot points anymore, but rather the good acting moments or the nice shots of the Impala that might be salvaged.
But I love talking with you all so much, and reveling in the great moments, when they are there.
Love to see so many people back here. Thanks again for the space to talk, Sheila – I’ve missed you guys!
What I’m finding with these last few seasons is that I appreciate moments from the episodes but they don’t really engage me as a complete story. Sam was terrific, especially how he dealt with these characters and situations like necessary nuisances. He’s doing what needs to be done, responding to Mary, giving orders, checking on Jack, saving Cas, but he’s not really there. His heart isn’t in it and we see the cracks in his reactions.
I want to love Michael!Dean. God knows I do but the choice of how to play it fell flat. Not sure that’s Jensen’s fault, but that could come from me wanting to blame Dabb as showrunner for everything. Jensen’s going for something deep here (I loved the delivery of the phrase “a better world” which gave me goosebumps) but it just doesn’t feel supported by the story. Michael is searching and disappointed but didn’t he know all of these things in the other world? What did he expect to find?
Nick’s vessel could be interesting. Is he really Lucifer hiding? Is he a soulless husk? Sam’s wary reaction to Nick was perhaps my favorite part.
Don’t shoot me (Jessie, I’m looking at you) but I didn’t mind the new Bobby so much. Jim Beaver is always good of course and you could see how beret Bobby is not our Bobby.
But what were they thinking – Cas can’t tell those were demons? Now we have bullets to kill every kind of monster? Michael thinks vamps are pure? No, no and no. Even so, I’m still here for next week!
Fill your hands, you son of a bitch!
(Beaver is always worth watching, but I have a hangover of resistance to alt-Bobby from all the ridiculousness last year. Paramilitary blah blah. Toasting Sam and Dean in the bunker! And now it seems like he’s gonna be just another person. What’s the point of him, get outta here :-D)
They need to dump ALL the paramilitary stuff (except Sam’s camo jacket, maybe he can keep that).
Speaking of just another person Bobby and flat Mary, all of those people in the Bunker are too much. I liked when it was this weird, dusty time capsule of lore that Sam and Dean knocked around in. Now it’s a bed and breakfast for refugees.
The paramilitary thing is now going into its 3rd year. I’m really bummed out by it.
// Toasting Sam and Dean in the bunker! And now it seems like he’s gonna be just another person. What’s the point of him, get outta here : //
I just … NO.
It’s pandering. I don’t love Bobby enough to want to just see Jim Beaver’s face, only have him not REALLY be Bobby. Same with Charlie. I don’t just love these characters/actors – I love the characters iN RELATION TO THE LEAD GUYS.
Sam and Dean continue to get the short stick with this team involved. Robert Singer must be bored out of his mind.
Hello! I LOVE reading the SPN comments here and I LOVE your blog Sheila! I don’t know that I have much to add, but after reading people’s thoughts on Jensen’s performance as Michael I did want to say one thing. I read a quote from Jensen saying that he asked Dabb for direction on Michael and how he should play him and Dabb basically gave him nothing. Jensen even asked if he should look at what Christian Keyes did with him in Season 13 and Dabb was like, no you don’t need to, just do your own thing. This seemed totally insane to me, how does the showrunner not have suggestions on this character? Does that seem totally insane to other people?
Jenna – thank you so much for reading and for commenting! I appreciate it!
// Does that seem totally insane to other people? //
Not with an actor as brilliant as Jensen. Trust me, anything Jensen comes up with will be far far better than anything Dabb – or any other showrunner, really – could come up with.
I was very curious about what your take would be! Thanks for the response!
I prefer Jensen to be in charge of his character! Not Dabb – who clearly doesn’t seem to understand the value of Dean anyway. Don’t mind me! I’m just being bitter!! :)
“Love to see so many people back here. Thanks again for the space to talk, Sheila – I’ve missed you guys!”
Same, Paula!
I enjoyed the interaction between Michael and Anael (still burned about naming another female character Jo), but there was just not enough of it.
Ditto everyone’s comments ref au characters, pep talks, FMW, basically everything! The only good thing about the strobe lights was at least I wasn’t the one having a stroke.
I’m a little behind because our family room is demo’d (water/mold remediation) and we’re watching Netflix and Amazon on my daughter’s Playstation. I have to find another tv that’s still connected to the CW. On that note, if anyone has recommendations for series on N or AP we’ve burned through everything since being exiled last May.
Missed you smart people!
Melanie oh no what a catastrophe! I just looked up what’s streaming on AP and I don’t know what you’ve seen but you’ve prob tried the big ones — The Wire, Deadwood, Justified are a holy trinity imo, and then there’s Hannibal, P&R, and Friday Night Lights — so here’s a plug for some smaller ones I’d highly recommend: Enlightened (gorgeous, tense, yearning), Treme (moving, deep, fun), Veep (if you can handle politics), The Good Wife (glossy, witty), Bored to Death (odd, funny, sweet), Flight of the Conchords (odd, delightful), The Expanse (surprising, ennervating), Mr Show (if you enjoy sketch comedy), Oz (hilariously nasty soap opera about nasty people). Maybe there’s something there you haven’t seen!
Santa Clarita Diet (oddly comforting, cartoonishly gory, quite adorable)
The Good Place (fantastic ensemble, apotheosis of Danson)
Haha! We watched Santa Clarita Diet before Justified, not realizing it was the same actor. Suddenly Raylon made the face and we yelled in unison, “nervous neighbor!” I hope there are more seasons to come.
I recommend Mindhunter on Netflix, if you’re a fan of true crime/forensics. It follows the FBI agent who was the originator of profiling; he started talking to serial killers, etc. in order to try to learn what makes them do the things they do. Season 1 had 10 episodes and S2 is being filmed.
Check out Broadchurch on Netflix. Tvma, but beautifully filmed and deep drama with full, flawed characters. Great show!
We have watched it and I agree with all you’ve said! It’s hard to watch, but so good. Interesting that Jodie Whitaker has gone on to 1st female Dr. Who and Olivia Coleman to The Crown as middle aged Queen Elizabeth – two very high profile roles.
Thanks, Jessie and Pat, I’ll give those a try!
Hey gang,
I’m coming back here weeks later, trying to be more articulate, even though no one might see that post. I don’t want to post this in the mew eps threads, since I’m not watching.
//Maybe once it’s all over it’d be interesting to write an analysis of where it went wrong and why. //
For me, it started really going down when Castiel overstayed his welcome. Even before MC started doing all the voices and accents, he had been there because they wanted to keep him around, at the detriment of the story. They made him cute, useless, annoying. It made the angels bland and unimportant. They created storylines that had nothing to do with the brothers. We don’t care – let them wear grey cardigans if they want to. We don’t want to know. ugh.
Then there’s the Crowley problem: they tried to replace him with boring villains (Rowena, dude in white). Why? Why not make him scary again? Or at least they could have made his storyline interesting – I was excited by his talk with Dean, after their break up. I loved their familiarity there, and wish it would have gone further. Why have this scene if doesn’t lead somewhere? If he’s kinda good now, let him be good. The two seasons of him being bored in a terrible set were insulting to Sheppard, honestly.
Then as Sheila pointed out several times, Rowena messed up the show pretty badly too. Listen, I do love her hair, but her magic has nothing gritty and disgusting anymore, there’s no high price, and it’s the answer to everything. For entire seasons they had to make Castiel less powerful because it would have been a problem, only to have Rowena with that power? WHY?
In Demon Dean’s season, they kept referring to their age and have young people call them old – and it was hilarious! It seemed smart to acknowledge their age – and the age of the show. They started wondering about getting old, retirement homes, settling down with a partner… It was new and interesting and real. For some reason, they have completely erased all those possibilities (Eileen’s death is unforgivable) and instead it looks like they’re trying to please a younger audience, with the spin-off, with the military gear, with the terrible fight scenes, the flashbacks, with the focus on Jack – with dinosaurs? I don’t know if it’s working, but it sure puts me off.
Lately, they also keep recycling people or objects or ideas from the previous seasons, such as Bobby or the Colt. Have they no original ideas of their own? Seeing the Colt in a terrible storyline played by terrible actors doesn’t please me, it just spoils everything and makes me work really hard to forget that debacle when I re-watch older seasons.
It also sometimes look like they forgot how to make the show beautiful? Since Ladouceur still works on the show, I simply don’t understand. Maybe the people who were there since the beginning are bored now, not challenged enough? Even the episodes directed by Singer weren’t that great last year. And to think in the early years he was the one guiding Kripke to focus more on the subtleties of the characters!
Sheila and friends, if you have the courage to re-watch that wreck, I’d really love to know what you think went very very wrong.
The slide started for me during S11. I gave the show a side-eye when Amara showed up and it was revealed that she was God’s sister. Oh, okay. Just the words ‘God’s sister’ made me cringe internally. Then it was a complete letdown for me when Chuck and Amara, two beings with infinite power, were turned into a sibling bitchfest. That season is when I stopped watching the show with 100% attention and starting multitasking while most episodes aired.
I perked up in S12 when Mary came back, but soon my interest started waning again when she didn’t want to be around her sons. Some S12 episodes were fine, but the whole Mary nonsense left me ambivalent.
S13 was a slog – meeting Jack was interesting but there was too much Lucifer, Mary, alt-world Bobby and Charlie, etc. that just didn’t grab me. That Asmodeus dude was barely a blip on my radar – I tuned out whenever he was onscreen. Sometimes I barely looked away from my tablet to what was happening on the TV unless Dean and Sam had scenes.
S14 so far…. shaking my head for the days gone by.
Pat, God’s sister… Right!
Honestly, I was had already stopped trusting the show, so when God became “just Chuck”, I stopped believing. It’s GOD, godammit! If it is not bigger than us, in a way that is not comprehensible, then it isn’t god to me anymore – and I’m not talking about personal beliefs, but about the show’s mythology as well as storytelling. Angels used to be bigger than we could comprehend – part of it was visible, but they were alien, we could only see the tip of the iceberg, just a glimpse of their true selves burnt us alive. But then they wear cardigans and god is a whiny writer? He can have a sister, I had already checked out – a sister, cousins, a golden retriever and a mortage, whatever.
So I totally get it would have been a tipping point for you. Although I did like some of the things Amara stirred in Dean. But I wish she had been something else, for sure. All I can remember of the Utlimate Sibbling Fight that was supposed to be so impressive are a horrible light show and Converse. What a mess.
I like the idea of God with a mortgage. Maybe the Original Gangster version of Death can repo God’s properties for neglect. And then reap his milquetoast ass.
wow Lyrie – late to respond to this – but really loved to hear your thoughts. This is really well articulated – and you brought up some things I had forgotten or not considered.
A lot to think about.
So far, I haven’t done full re-watches – I sort of dip in and out, watching my favorite comfort-food episodes (Hello, “The Mentalists!”) – and outside of the recap stuff, which I will continue to do – I don’t watch entire seasons in order again. I keep meaning to do that with the final eps of Season 11 through Season 12. It will be painful but I feel like I need to.
//I keep meaning to do that with the final eps of Season 11 through Season 12. //
I have done that because I was watching the show with someone, and I don’t recommend it. It’s incredibly embarrassing, really. But also interesting, in a horrifying way?
This summer I re-watched the first few episodes of the show. Funny to see Wendigo or Bugs and think they were the lows of the show. Funny and sad. I will never re-watch past season 10, except for Baby.
TNT is running a marathon of Supernatural because it’s Halloween. I’m recording all of the episodes because that’s way I do. I’ve only started watching some of them but watching the early episodes illustrates some of the points that Lyrie brings up and it makes it more difficult to watch the new episodes.
The shows was so beautiful in the early years. The visuals might be clearer and brighter now, but it’s definitely not as enjoyable to watch. Also Dean and Sam were more innocent then in a weird way. They were still learning about demons and witches and shape shifters. They could still be surprised. Now, they are more world weary which you would expect after 14 years and it shows.
Even something as simple as the actors used to play roles. I’m looking at an episode where the actress who played Crowley’s meat suit in one episode is a lovely suburban mom whose husband has been cursed into swallowing razor blades. The same actor who played a big blue monster in Fan Fic, is a golum in Everbody Hates Hitler.
W
w
//Also Dean and Sam were more innocent then in a weird way. They were still learning about demons and witches and shape shifters. They could still be surprised.//
True, but that was unavoidable. I really like that instead, they were surprised by “normal life” stuff, though, because their lives had been so far from normal. They’re in the 30s, they meet a couple of hunters who leave the life, who are in love and who, despite their wounds, might find a way to enjoy life, and THAT catches them by surprise – I absolutely loved that. I thought it was such an interesting development.
//The shows was so beautiful in the early years. The visuals might be clearer and brighter now//
I miss that look so much. They were always in the darkest coffee shop, the darkest diner, the darkest library! No one knew how to turn the lights on back then!
Oh jeez, Lyrie, this is spot on
I haven’t watched the show since the middle of last season. I can’t even with the show in its current iteration. What ended it for me is the way the show keeps repeating a pattern of introducing interesting possibilities then retreating as if terrified of what it is has started and as if it can no longer trust its viewers to stick with difficult stuff for more than one episode. The show does not know what to do with itself anymore.
Helena, you put it so well, and that drives me NUTS. They bring their mother back and avoid conflict, creating instead an incredibly uninteresting storyline in which she bones the English guy? Who chares?
The other day at work a colleague told me, with a fatalistic tone, “well, the show has been on for so long, they have run out of things to say.” It was so hard to stay cool (note to self – stop talking about SPN at WORK) – no they didn’t! They’re just not doing it!
I’m so, so late to this party, but I just saw this episode (14×01), and wanted to point out ONE thing I kinda liked, that actually worked for me as story:
Kip (urgh) has Castiel (WHY CAN’T HE SEE DEMONS WHY IS HE NOW JUST THE DAMSEL IN DISTRESS I LOVED CAS AND I HATE SO MUCH WHAT THEY’VE DONE TO HIS CHARACTER IN THE LAST 5 SEASONS – phew, sorry) in Detroit – this immediately made me think of season 5, where “everything went down in Detroit”, when Sam said yes to Lucifer.
This time, though – the stage was all set for Sam to say yes again, to make a deal again, and instead he delivered the most emphatic No possible…now that, I really liked. (And it appears he had the authority to back it up? The demons certainly seemed to think so.)
I haven’t trusted the writing/storytelling on this show since the end of season 10, but sometimes they come up with something that I’m willing to concede might not have been a case of the stopped clock being right twice a day.