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When we were saying wounds can be sexy …:)
Oh Lyrie, yes. His wounds were stunning.
JP gets more handsome every year, in my opinion. And his hair …
I know Jessie always has thoughts about his hair. So I can’t add anything to that, really. Just that he looks awesome.
LET ME TELL YIU ABOUT SAM’S HAIR
Fluffy and distressed, A+++++++ would caress repeatedly
*sits at your feet, head in hands* yes, please, tell me more about fluffy warm distressed Sam hair
Sam knows the right thing to say.
Awesome acid-etched angel Rick Springfield. Wish we didn’t have to put up with Rowena and Crowley to get him.
I wonder if we will be in for a range of hotel rooms in SPN, rather than motel rooms. Those greens and yellows were aggressively hideous. No crazy room dividers, though.
Dean eating pie as fast as he can, wearing some of it.
I loved that hotel hallway!
Rick Springfield…..loved him. Lucifer got his groove back!!
I loved him too. Springfield was having a blast!
And the look on his face when he saw his dead girlfriend …
He’s a wonderful actor.
I thought it was okay. But also felt like something was missing. Liked Rick Springfield, great to have some creepiness back with Lucifer. Loved how /happy/ Sam was to see Dean. Felt like there were some weird gaps in the narrative. And, in general, not enough Winchester.
That first sequence…… so weird, so uncomfortable, so rapey….. but also: the candles.
I’m optimistic.
// not enough Winchester//
Preach it, sister.
I enjoyed pieces of it, but as an episode it was not in the top 200.
Do you think the candles were Lady Toni insertion (ew, now that’s rapey!) into the scenario or does Sam actually picture things like that when he’s imaging making the beast with two backs?
//the candles were Lady Toni insertion (ew, now that’s rapey!) //
Mutecypher!
Lady Toni insertation. Definitely.
I actually found the candles and the wine glasses pretty funny, despite how icky the scene was. They didn’t play it entirely straight.
I thought the candles and wine were funny too. She clearly doesn’t know Sam Winchester all that well, who is a bar-bathroom back-of-the-Impala kind of guy, all the way.
Lady Toni insertion. Ew. It makes me think of Leo DiCaprio in Wolf of Wall Street in one particular scene … never has a major A-List actor had to act a candle being removed from his ass while moaning “OW-EE OW-EE OW-EE.”
Sorry.
I agree: not enough Winchester. Rowena and Crowley are KILLING. ME.
You know- I rewatched the first two episodes of s11 the other day- & Crowley is GREAT in them. Really funny entertaining stuff, without Rowena. I wouldn’t mind having Crowley around if they could just keep it like that.
Yeah – I know what you mean, Wren. I think that Crowley gets so caught up in his relationship with his mother – that it somehow neutralizes him – or puts him in a hermetically-sealed little jar with his Mum.
He’s funny and effective when he’s a Lone Wolf – infinitely corruptible – an individual. I’m not sure the impetus to keeping Rowena around. It seems pretty obvious that it’s WAY not working anymore – that she’s so clearly a “one-off” – or she served a purpose – now it’s time for her to go.
They kill off Charlie and leave Rowena. Doesn’t make a lot of sense.
I’m optimistic too. That first scene was weird and uncomfortable and rapey, especially vulnerable since we never see Sam naked (naked and happy too, as opposed to naked and soulless). The comments she threw out about Ruby and Benny – hopefully they foreshadow more than trying to guilt them for associating with monsters.
Awkward and flustered Sam showing up at Mary’s door with tea and John’s journal (after obviously having a conversation with Dean in the kitchen) was worth the Crowley-Rowena-Lucifer distractions. Although I must say I like Rick Springfield so far.
Hey, Paula! Once again the better half of the Paulanie mindmeld speaks my mind better than I could – Ruby, Benny, Sam, Mom…
And ummm… naked Sam. Mustn’t forget naked Sam.
// Awkward and flustered Sam showing up at Mary’s door with tea and John’s journal (after obviously having a conversation with Dean in the kitchen) was worth the Crowley-Rowena-Lucifer distractions. //
Totally agree about those scenes at the end. They had real depth. A strangeness to them – how awkward everyone is. It strikes me as very real. Dean was practically rolling his eyes at times at his mother …
He’s reverting. He’s somehow been demoted. He doesn’t know where he is right now.
And again, Sam is somehow dealing with his emotions in a clear-er way. Is able to speak to his mother with his emotions about her on his face.
The two men had extremely different childhoods. The show has not forgotten that.
There were some interesting dynamics, here:
– Mary is not what we knew of her, of course, because it was an idealized version. She’s pretty cool though. But how can you be a mother to a grown up guy?
– Sam is not 4 years old. Oh, my heart!
– Mary doesn’t know how to face Sam because of her responsibility in what happened. Cool. But…
– How about she worries about that pissed-off teenager full of contradictory feelings Dean is becoming? I did not see that coming, and that’s pretty interesting. The way he says “I am thrilled” and he looks anything but. And that sentence: “It is what it is.” It is what it is? Wow.
– Which tells us – and it is consistent with Dean’s exploration of his past, when he was consoling his mother – that people expecting Dean to take care of others and himself is not new. Initiated by mom?
It is not a good thing that I knew in the first scene who had written the episode. It’s awkward between Dean and mom? SHOW me and let the actors do their job, instead of telling me, ffs!
Why are we supposed to care about the demon-y soap opera of Crowley et al?
//That first sequence…… so weird, so uncomfortable, so rapey…..//
Yeah, ewww, so uncomfortable, right? Sam was so relaxed, all guards down, a vulnerable centaur! Poor guy.
Oh, yeah, and: WHAT ABOUT BENJAMIN LAFITTE, BITCH? He was awesome, and in case you missed, Dean did send him back to Purgatory and the guy stayed them on his own accord.
Love that they would reference Ruby and him.
Benny and Ruby. Torture.
Makes me think lines from our latest Nobel Laureate.
At midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew
Come out and round up everyone that knows more than they do
Then they bring them to the factory where the heart-attack machine
Is strapped across their shoulders and then the kerosene
Is brought down from the castles by insurance men who go
Check to see that nobody is escaping to Desolation Row
Oh man yes, that was thrilling. That was that continuity thing that I love: where they remember what the hell happened way back at the beginning.
Ruby?? Hell yes let’s talk about Ruby!
and I thought of you when Benny came up. Benny!!!
Ha ha ha, I’m so obsessive!
A while ago I was completely obsessed with zombies (for about a year I kept having zombie dreams, that was AWESOME!), and so every time something with/about zombies came up, people would just send it to me. Or, you know, I would arrive at a friend’s house I hadn’t seen in a while and he would be like: “Hi, how was the travel? I kept those comics for you, by the way.” (It was before there were zombies everywhere, now it’s a bit hard to keep track. Not that I mind it. I still love zombies.)
I love it when friends have my obsessions on their radar.
Someone just sent me a link telling me that a new camel was born in the Chicago zoo and it was named “Alexander Camelton.” hahahaha They knew I would need to know.
//How about she worries about that pissed-off teenager full of contradictory feelings Dean is becoming// All their dynamics are changing now, which is so interesting. Dean retreating to petulance, Sam becoming a very sweet little boy knocking at his mother’s door. This can’t help but change the brother’s dynamics. Pressure is less on Dean to care for Sam and Sam now has someone to talk to (maybe Mary will go to foreign language movies or old bookstores or drinks lattes with him). Sounds good but bet it will lead to some good conflict, especially given that Mary is so overwhelmed.
// Pressure is less on Dean to care for Sam and Sam now has someone to talk to (maybe Mary will go to foreign language movies or old bookstores or drinks lattes with him). Sounds good but bet it will lead to some good conflict, especially given that Mary is so overwhelmed. //
Totally agree. This is going to be fascinating.
and yeah: somehow, I wonder if this will end up meaning that Sam and Dean won’t be able to talk to each other openly anymore. and whenever THAT happens … the show takes off into the stratosphere. Whenever that main relationship is shaken up, we get good stuff.
That ‘I thought you were dead’ moment was so good. I don’t think I mentioned that. The looks on their faces.
Yes – very good moment. I loved all their eye contact during that scene.
Also, Dean has a moment when he starts coughing, after trying to be a Tough Guy.
Burlesque to the max. All JA. It’s so funny.
not enough, Wren! not enough! my soul craves more!
//How about she worries about that pissed-off teenager full of contradictory feelings Dean is becoming? I did not see that coming, and that’s pretty interesting.//
Yes it is. Really interesting that he’s on the kitchen floor drinking and looking at old pictures instead of the usual overhead shot of lying on his bed being pensive. It highlights the complex mix of emotions he’s trying to figure out what to do with. Part of him obviously wants to revert to a little boy and go hide. He’s been hiding from, running from, and pushing down those feelings for 33 years. I hope we get more like this…
Lyrie –
// How about she worries about that pissed-off teenager full of contradictory feelings Dean is becoming? I did not see that coming, and that’s pretty interesting. The way he says “I am thrilled” and he looks anything but. And that sentence: “It is what it is.” It is what it is? Wow. //
Really good observation.
You’ve made me think more about those scenes with Dean – there’s so much going on. I’ve only watched the episode once. I’m thinking of her behavior during Dark Side of the Moon – her assumption that Dean is okay, that Dean can comfort her post-fight with John – disregarding how he might be feeling that his dad has moved out. The burden of the oldest child.
And the same thing happened with John. John assumed Dean would be okay, Dean is always okay, Dean is a warrior, he does what he’s told – but “Sammy he doted on.”
So there’s a weird dynamic there. How does Mary see her son Dean now? Does she assume he’s okay? Because everybody does? She’s not SEEING him yet. (Give her time. We’re early yet. I hope Mary sticks around, I really do, so this can play out fully.)
and when she looks at Sam … it’s like she’s a little bit afraid of him. Clearly shy because of her guilt about “starting all this.”
// It is not a good thing that I knew in the first scene who had written the episode. It’s awkward between Dean and mom? SHOW me and let the actors do their job, instead of telling me, ifs! //
REALLY good observation. Thank you!
// a vulnerable centaur! Poor guy. //
hahahaha I love how this is our language here and we all know what you are talking about.
Suddenly – out of nowhere – the thing Dean has always wished for has come true.
And his reaction is to stare at old photographs.
Amazing.
Yes! Struck me as such an odd reaction, that nostalgia. He has what he always wanted, but getting drunk and maudlin over the photos. Also, chronologically, he and Sam were probably in the kitchen together (Sam boiling water, Dean drinking beer). So, did seeing Sam all happy and fluttery about making Mary tea trigger this in a way? Turning their binary-star world into a familial solar system throws him off so quickly. Is it this new knowledge that Mary isn’t the ideal he thought, or what he sees as a weakening of the brothers’ bond? Dean always struggles with who he is without Sam, while Sam seems to be okay if there is another Dean-like person in his life (Jess now Mary).
Paula – it didn’t strike me as odd at all. It struck me as deeply right – and had that complexity that I was hoping for when Mary returned to the fold. Dean’s “thing” about his mother. His mother exists only in those photos and in the few memories he has and the Fact of her, what she meant to him and his life.
So to have her back again … here …
It makes sense that he would go back to the photos – to the way things were – it’s familiar. There’s a comfort in the familiar, however miserable.
Sam is obviously more open to his FEELINGS about all of this.
So this is going to be VERY interesting.
I noticed a couple of other things when I watched the ep again last night. I’ll try to put it into words down below – it has to do with how Mary treats Dean.
Don’t find it odd either. When you think about it, Sam’s personality was built around being a hunter, having to be protected, being Other, etc… So of course, Mary’s death did have a huge impact.
But for Dean, everything was about Mom Not Being Here. He was never a pre-law or a boyfriend. It’s WHO he is. How do you adjust to that being shaken up, when you’re in your late 30s.
//the thing Dean has always wished for has come true.//
It’s a little like “The Monkey’s Paw”. Considering SPN’s history of expanding on horror stories in either pop culture or literature, I’m surprised we haven’t gotten something more overt. (We got a bit when Bobby’s wife and others came back.) Obviously Dean’s wish was that Mary never died, but Amara is naive and didn’t get that dragging somebody back from death is not the same thing. Ahhh, the consequences of screwing with the natural order. Now there’s some familiar ground.
//– Mary doesn’t know how to face Sam because of her responsibility in what happened. Cool. But…
– How about she worries about that pissed-off teenager full of contradictory feelings Dean is becoming? I did not see that coming, and that’s pretty interesting. The way he says “I am thrilled” and he looks anything but.//
Yeah, even in “Home” Mary is apologizing to Sam. I see that look of “What about the fact that YED killed Dad? And what about me? I had to live with Dad giving himself up for me AND having the burden of ‘taking care of’ Sammy even if it meant…” He’s even more speechless than normal.
Just before this Mary asks Dean if he’s really worried about overwhelming her. That look is also so full of a million silent responses, “Of course I’m worried. It’s my fault you’re here. You’re my responsibility. I must have said or done something to make Amara think I wanted this and now you’re here and it’s on me to make it right, but I just don’t f$%@ing know how to do that…” This is when he starts into the “I’m so glad you’re here,” BUT…
I’m still not sold on the British Men of Letters. The idea that Toni defied orders and went rogue makes it a little better, but still. The rapey-ness of the beginning scene aside, were we supposed to buy that it was really happening? Because, no. Also, if she knows all about Ruby and Benny, how does she NOT know about the other hunters they’ve worked with (or, for that matter, that American hunters are just not as organized as she seems to think they are)? That said, could it be foreshadowing of an endgame? A world without monsters where Sam and Dean can get out of hunting?
I’m reserving judgment on Lucifer right now. Rick Springfield is awesome, and there were shadings of what I loved about Lucifer when he first showed up with the whole “I just want to take away your pain” thing, but I’ll wait and see where this is going.
I LOVE Mary. I think my favorite moment was when she straight up called Dean out on what she heard him saying to Cas. Totally new dynamic. If that had been a moment between the boys it would have dragged out for weeks of angst. And meanwhile, she’s poking little holes in Dean’s idealized mom fantasy just as I’d hoped. The Piggly Wiggly meatloaf. And his reaction to Mary saying that John was a good dad! When you get right down to it, THIS is why I watch this show! I also blubbered like a baby at the Sam and Mary moment at the end. My God, that look on Sam’s face. I don’t even have words.
Natalie –
// could it be foreshadowing of an endgame? A world without monsters where Sam and Dean can get out of hunting? //
Hmmm. I hadn’t thought of that.
// what I loved about Lucifer when he first showed up with the whole “I just want to take away your pain” thing, //
You mean when he first appeared to Mark Pellegrino? (Such a great scene.) Yes, I loved that the tactics did not change and that that washed-up rock star was so desperate he would say “Yes” immediately. And in one scene Springfield showed just how desperately sad this man was. Right? In the exact same way that Mark Pellegrino just killed it in those first scenes before Lucifer entered him. The pain was so great that of course someone would say Yes.
// When you get right down to it, THIS is why I watch this show! //
You and me both!!
I love Dean being a little kid about his Perfect Mama, and how she never was perfect, and she never cooked for him, she doesn’t cook, and now he has to try to be a grownup about it and of course he is failing because for him time really stopped at 4 years old, despite his grown-up body. This is some good stuff – and they’ve planted the seeds for it to play out.
// I also blubbered like a baby at the Sam and Mary moment at the end. My God, that look on Sam’s face. I don’t even have words. //
Me too. Oh, JP. He just stands there and spontaneously fills up with emotion. He has a gift.
I’m liking this. I’m get the feeling that they heard about some of the complaints about what happened at the end of the season and are trying to repair some of the damage. I think that this slow approach to building up the relationship makes perfect. After all, it’s been 33 years and all the joy in the world doesn’t take the place of experience and life with someone. Mary and the boys and trying to build a relationship without a freaking clue as to how to do it. Mary was an only child. She died with her kids with 6 mos and 4. They never talk about John’s family so we haven’t a clue if anyone in that family knows how to create a so-called “normal” family. I’m hoping that they take their time and let it play out in real time, as much as they can, given the limitations of television.
Crowley, Castiel and Rowena – that’s a weird family, too, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Rowena disappears by the end of the season, regardless of whether Crowley beats Lucifer or not. For the benefit of the story, we need Crowley. (we also need some actors around to give JA and JP and break or they would have to be in every scene and that leads to rapid burnout.) You need a story line B to contrast with the main story line. Crowley and Rowena arc is interesting but not particularly compelling and I think that eventually Crowley will win with the assistance of Castiel, Lucifer will be back in the cage, Rowena will find her millionaire in Boca and never be seen again.
I’m still on the fence about the British MOL. I’m don’t like milady at all and every time I see her, I flash to Lady Penelope from Thunderbirds Are Go. She even has the same skinny legs. I simply can’t take her seriously. She is a plot device and that’s all. Even her evilness in the name of “making America safe again” is almost laughable considering this election year.
I think we’ve discussed this before. Supernatural has a very hard road to hoe. It’s like going to a Rolling Stones concert. The audience wants all the old songs sung the same way every time. The band want to introduce some new material and try different things. How do you keep the old fandom happy while still keeping new audience members and the actors entertained and engaged. I think they do a excellent job.
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// I’m get the feeling that they heard about some of the complaints about what happened at the end of the season and are trying to repair some of the damage. //
Carolyn – interesting! Hadn’t really considered that but I am SURE you’re right!
// After all, it’s been 33 years and all the joy in the world doesn’t take the place of experience and life with someone. Mary and the boys and trying to build a relationship without a freaking clue as to how to do it. //
Right?? It’s so interesting to watch. Dean thanking her for dinner. She’s like: “It’s takeout.”
Does anyone else get the feeling that she is already – somewhat – taking Dean for granted?
Not in a callous way … just the thing that sometimes happens with oldest kids. Like: Sam is palpably more emotional, right? So she is able to go to him and hug him and cling to him.
Dean is not showing his emotions on his sleeve (well, WE all can see it – but so often other people on the show mis-interpret him) – and so Mary accepts him for what he appears to be – and never considers (or at least so far hasn’t considered – it’s been, what, 3 days?) what her death must have done to him.
She and Dean are almost totally on the surface with each other so far. It’s so interesting!!! I’m so glad it’s going this way – it’s a much richer experience for me as an audience member.
Reminds me of Kim Manner’s quote about being a director: Give them what they want, but give it to them in a way they don’t expect.
//You need a story line B to contrast with the main story line. Crowley and Rowena arc is interesting but not particularly compelling and I think that eventually Crowley will win with the assistance of Castiel, Lucifer will be back in the cage, Rowena will find her millionaire in Boca and never be seen again. //
Ha. Yes, if she’s starting to date, she’s looking for her own way out. My fear is that she and Lucifer will hook up – romantically – become allies – I don’t know. Not a Rowena fan. Nothing against the actress. She was fine in her first season. and she’s clearly a talented actress. I just am sick of her presence.
//Even her evilness in the name of “making America safe again” is almost laughable considering this election year. //
I thought the same thing. Maybe the experience of this election year has (thus far) been too raw and too awful – not ready for jokes about it, or metaphors about it.
// The audience wants all the old songs sung the same way every time. The band want to introduce some new material and try different things. How do you keep the old fandom happy while still keeping new audience members and the actors entertained and engaged. I think they do a excellent job. //
I very much agree with this!! There’s a reason they’ve been on the air this long! They have kept it fresh enough to bring in new viewers (like myself) – and also have switched it up enough so that old-timers will keep tuning in. Plus the consistency of those two main characters and how good JA and JP are.
I do try to reserve judgment – believe it or not – ha!! – and I realize that my irritation with Castiel (for example) is not shared by a very powerful fan base – so I understand why he’s still on the show. They can’t afford to alienate a huge part of their audience.
Re-visiting the Mary thing, I think, has been a smart smart move thus far. At least with these two episodes it has grounded them in emotions – as opposed to plot – like you say, the Men of Letters feels like a plot device right now. And very few people watch SPN for its gripping plot, I imagine. We’re in it for the family stuff, the “boys,” the emotions.
So yes: agreed: they do this balancing act quite well, overall.
Well, for a Buckleming episode, this was pretty good—maybe even the best one they’ve ever done. I mean, next to “Route 666” or “Man’s Best Friend With Benefits” or even “All In The Family” from last season, I thought it was much better than their usual plot-vomit.
I found it funny that literally the first thing that happened, in the teaser no less, was that Sam had an orgasm. Even if it was “Chinese mind control” (perhaps the worst line of the ep), JP still had to act it convincingly, which he certainly did. I love me some shirtless Sam in bed, even if it’s “rape-y” in context. Conflict! Drama! Give it to me!
The Terrible Twins usually make Dean a complete idiot, and I thought they avoided doing that for the most part, except for the pie-eating scene. Instead, they made Cas a complete idiot, which stings far less for me. Apparently, all the pop culture knowledge Metatron downloaded into his brain has mysteriously vanished, and thank god for that. Overly-literal, humorless, serious Cas is the best Cas, provided we have to have a Cas at all—which the show definitely thinks we do. So I was thrilled that he’s back to not understanding any of those references—it’s a good look for him, and it needs to stay. Really, just decide on a version of Cas and stick with it for the love of all that’s holy.
I’m loving Mary’s characterization so far and wondering when they’re going to (inevitably) re-fridge her. This isn’t the Sam, Dean, and Mom show, after all. So every time she’s onscreen, I’m going to be nervous—not because I can’t bear to lose her character, but because I’m apprehensive as fuck about the huge emotional impact it will have on her sons. Oy vey! I just can’t imagine how hard that’ll hit both boys when it happens, although I’m hoping they’ll both be happy that it happened at all rather than sad that it ended. Particularly for Sam, having never known her at all—her resurrection has already brought out so much tenderness and respect and TEACUPS! I’m not ashamed to admit that their scene at the end, in which intuitive Sam gives Mary John’s journal while Heart’s “Lost Angel” played made me cry like a baby.
Rick Springfield was wonderful. I’m so bored by Crowley and hell and demons, and I never thought I’d be bored by Rowena, but yep, that day is here. Maybe Lucifer-inside-Vince Vincente can make me care about Rowena again. Why did she need to seduce a rich dude to marry anyway, when she can just cast a spell on whomever she chooses and be done with it? Ahhhh, continuity errors. Still, I thought it was a solid episode, and like I said earlier, for Buckleming, it was off-the-charts excellent.
I didn’t even realize this was a Buckleming episode. You’re right, by their standards, it was a phenomenal episode.
// I found it funny that literally the first thing that happened, in the teaser no less, was that Sam had an orgasm. //
hahahaha I said the same thing in my comment below before I read your comment. Yes, very funny!!
I have always had a concern that nobody is having enough sex on the show, which I realize is an extremely floozy thing to say, but I cop to that gladly. Even though the sex was not real … and made me feel weird because Ew – why is he with the woman who has been torturing him? although … well. Sex doesn’t always make sense.
But still: I liked the weirdness of that opening.
I had missed the writing credits too somehow – agree with your comments about it! I bet they had input from the rest of the writing staff. My brother’s on the writing staff of Survivor’s Remorse – with a couple of episode credits now! – but it’s been very illuminating to hear from him how a writer’s room really works. Especially on a smaller show. Everyone has input on everything, basically, because everyone – including the network – has to sign off on it.
So obviously I don’t KNOW, but of course everyone involved knows that they need to get mileage out of this Mary thing. And how best to do that? Like Kim Manners said about directing the show: “Give them what they want, but give it to them in a way they don’t expect.” That goes for the characters of Sam and Dean too – come to think of it. They’ve always wanted their Mom back. Now she’s back and nobody knows how to handle it. Fascinating!!
But I am really liking how you are analyzing the writers – and how they have treated Dean. I have not made those connections – would love to hear more of your observations about their “style,” if you feel like sharing.
// Apparently, all the pop culture knowledge Metatron downloaded into his brain has mysteriously vanished, and thank god for that. //
AMEN.
// o I was thrilled that he’s back to not understanding any of those references—it’s a good look for him, and it needs to stay. Really, just decide on a version of Cas and stick with it for the love of all that’s holy. //
hahahaha Yeah, really. I get the sense that many of his fans are quite young. Or at least … immature? No offense meant. We all grow at different speeds. And honestly pleasing that fan base is no easy task. They are very emotional. This is even apart from the whole Destiel thing, which I’m not even sure is a “thing” anymore. I don’t spend time on message boards! Does anyone here? Any update on those who hoped Destiel would go canon? I don’t ask to be mean. I’m just curious. It was those fans – and their freak-outs about Castiel-as-human having sex – that got me to watch the show in the first place, out of sheer curiosity. So I will always be grateful to “Destiel” for that.
Anyway, I agree about how the show has flailed in terms of Cas for about 3 or 4 seasons now. He has to be on the show. But what is his purpose?
Hanging out with the Winchesters and trying to help and being clueless: that’s how he really ADDS to the show, as opposes to subtract.
// Particularly for Sam, having never known her at all—her resurrection has already brought out so much tenderness and respect and TEACUPS! //
Right??? Sam with a teacup!!!
//Any update in those who hoped Destiel would go cannon?//
Yes Destiel fans are very much still out there. They are still convinced that Dean and Cas as a couple will be canon. They seemed particularly eager last season when Lucifer was inhabiting Cas and Dean was showing concern over the situation. Many were convinced that Dean’s love and support would help Cas find his self worth again and enable him to find the strength to eject Lucifer. Some were pretty upset that didn’t happen and some got really mad when Dean called Cas “our brother” in the finale.
If there are any Destiel fans out there…please don’t get unhappy with this analogy, but this is what Twitter feels like sometimes during an episode airing:
Dean: “Hey Cas.”
Twitter fans: “It’s love! It’s love!! They are soulmates forever!
“Hello, Dean.”
“BUTT SEEEEEX.”
#sorry #notreallythough
Lyrie you’re killing me.
The multiple “E”s in particular.
#notsorryeither
// Some were pretty upset that didn’t happen and some got really mad when Dean called Cas “our brother” in the finale. //
Wow – instead of “my future husband” or something?
You know, when he called Cas “our brother” – my thought was: seriously, there has been almost no relationship between Cas and the brothers for 2 or 3 years – it just doesn’t have the punch anymore. It felt like empty words – I know we all discussed this at the time.
Your analogy made me laugh. “Hey Cas.” hahahaha
I am sure they all flipped out at Mary’s reaction shot to Dean and Cas hugging? Am I right? I did see on her face a little quizzical, “Huh, my son might be gay and here is his boyfriend.” Not judgmental, but just accepting the possibility.
Lyrie you cracked me up!! #donteverbesorry #prettyaccurate
Sheila….yes that is exactly where they went with Mary and the hug.
///Supernatural has a very hard road to hoe. It’s like going to a Rolling Stones concert. The audience wants all the old songs sung the same way every time. The band want to introduce some new material and try different things. How do you keep the old fandom happy while still keeping new audience members and the actors entertained and engaged.///
Carolyn, this is a great analogy, and too true! I’m disturbed by the end scenes of Lady Toni and Mick (?) driving, discussing the Winchesters. Toni seems to be rather…um…fixated…on Sam and Dean, in a way that makes no sense (why? What’s her stake in this?), and the final shots of James Douchebag Bond, packing for an ostensible trip to the USA…well, I hope that’s not the new album the band wants us to get into. But you just KNOW it is.
//Toni seems to be rather…um…fixated…on Sam and Dean, in a way that makes no sense (why? What’s her stake in this?), and the final shots of James Douchebag Bond, packing for an ostensible trip to the USA…well, I hope that’s not the new album the band wants us to get into. But you just KNOW it is.//
YES. THIS.
// and the final shots of James Douchebag Bond, packing for an ostensible trip to the USA…well, I hope that’s not the new album the band wants us to get into. But you just KNOW it is. //
I had the same thought!
Not into the James-Bond-Ing of Supernatural.
I just want to say THANK YOU for the horror – Vince washing his hands and face in blood, Lucifer’s face half melted off with acid, the wallpaper in the hotel… Seriously, give me more of that!
Yes! Give me the horror too! Hahahaha, that hotel room. As mutecypher said, aggressively hideous. Jerry Wanek and his team must be rubbing their hands together.
The hotel room and hallway were gorgeous and surreal. No warmth. The Shining-ish. Wanek unleashed!
To be honest when I saw that it was a Buckleming episode, my very first though was “Oh crap, you mean the reunion scenes are going to be in the hands of those writers?” I have to admit that I was surprised….very pleasantly so….over the Sam and Mary scene at the end. That was utterly moving and wonderful. Jared and Samantha’s acting were obviously what made that scene what it was, but it was a great scene.
In the end, I liked the episode ok, but I certainly didn’t love it. It had some great moments but it also had some clunky moments too.
What I liked:
Rick Springfield as Lucifer. Yes, Pellegrino will always be my favorite Lucifer, but I loved Springfield’s performance last night. I loved the intensity and edge he brought. Lucifer felt like Lucifer again to me.
Mary’s fears and honesty. I like the fact that she was worried about how Sam was going to feel about her in regards to Azazel. Mary is fascinating so far and I’m excited….and nervous….about where it is all going to go.
The scene between Sam and Mary. Absolutely wonderful.
What I liked and maybe shouldn’t have?
Cas not sweating under any circumstances. I know that was probably one of those things that I should have rolled my eyes over, but I admit it….I burst out laughing. Misha’s line reading was wonderful!
What I didn’t like:
Rowena….can she PLEASE go to the tropical island already?
The whole Sam “rescue” scene. So, Cas lurks outside and peeks around trees while talking on his phone for how long? Yes, I know it was warded and he couldn’t get in, but he just hangs outside in plain sight? Dean then just drives up in the Impala and they park….again in plain sight?? Then they stand around and chat for a few minutes about whether Mary was coming or not and then Dean just strolls towards the house?? No wonder he got captured so easily!! Mary and Toni fighting was good, but I was not much impressed with anything that occurred during those scenes.
I’m still very much in the air about the British MOL. I’m ready for them to hop on a plane and fly back across the ocean…however it is still early and more yet I’m sure to be revealed.
Michelle –
// I loved the intensity and edge he brought. Lucifer felt like Lucifer again to me. //
I agree!
// Mary is fascinating so far and I’m excited….and nervous….about where it is all going to go. //
I’m with you. I like that she’s got an edge. That she’s not a “victim” or even a damsel in distress. Maybe Dean liked her better when he could think of her like that?? (Not that he doesn’t like her … he loves her … but he is very taken aback by this new and competent and grown-up Mary.)
Castiel’s line about sweating also made me laugh out loud. I think his voice might have even come from off-screen? I’d have to go back and check. Like: so clueless that him sweating or not sweating was not at all the point – it was a metaphor … so funny.
// No wonder he got captured so easily!! Mary and Toni fighting was good, but I was not much impressed with anything that occurred during those scenes. //
Yeah. Rookie mistakes, in general.
I did like the flashes of eye contact between Sam and Dean throughout. Angry Spice. Dean looking at Sam when Mary walked in the room, like, “Oh yeah … forgot to mention …” Dean making wise-cracks after being smashed in the face with brass knuckles.
Also, please, someone, anyone; Can Cas not teleport now? What the hell is his status as an angel?
Remember how he basically knocked about that barn on his first entrance? Does he not have that power anymore?
I know Kripke and all the others were concerned about Castiel’s power after they first introduced him – because someone that powerful would basically wreck the tension of the show. If Castiel could just show up and vaporize everyone then we wouldn’t have a show.
But I’ve been bored by Cas and so not at all tracking his status as an angel.
I’m still bored. But it’s a problem when his behavior doesn’t make sense.
Anyway: time will tell.
So far, I think it’s been a very strong opening for the season.
Chipping in to say hi and I am enjoying Season 12 so far and hurray! we’ve already got over the huge hurdle that is the first ‘Buckleming’ episode without wanting to gouge my eyes out. In fact it was a good Dakota 8, a solidly constructed episode with a surprising amount of space for grown up emotions, and not too much Crowley and Rowena. I’m all for original-recipe Cas, too, long may he stay that way.
Couple of things I find perturbing about the British MoL : any suggestions these days about British efficiency evoke painful emotions these days, as the British antics vis a vis a certain recent referendum have been demonstrating that as a nation we would have trouble planning packed lunches for the week ahead. But yes, plenty of British buried rage, privilege, hypocrisy and self-delusion in Lady Penelope de Thunderbird, or whoever this particular iteration of Posh Female Brit is supposed to be, so maybe she’s not so far off the mark. (Her colleague – Mike??? – where is he really from, though? Dick Van Dyke-land?)
Also, I am very much looking forward to the appearance of Mr Ketch, and I hope he lives up to his name.
I’m looking forward to Mr Ketch, too. He sounds like a Neil Gaiman villain.
Hahaha. 2 spice girl references: episode 1 referenced Crowley’s ‘Posh Spice’ accent and Dean asks “Who’s Angry Spice?”
//as a nation we would have trouble planning packed lunches for the week ahead.//
I’m glad you said it, Helena. I love the eccentricity and quirkiness of the UK, but it’s not believable that monsters have been locked down since 1965 over there. As if they could do what the Doctor could not. Don’t get me wrong, I love the UK, but the only straight roads were built by Romans. Let’s hope Mr. 007 Ketch is more convincing than Lady Penelope.
//eccentricity and quirkiness of the UK//
oh dear, has it come to this?
//but the only straight roads were built by Romans. //
Indeed, and what have the Romans ever done for us?
(Again, I think Monty Python had the power of prophecy, as that is pretty much the leave campaign’s manifesto in one sentence.)
OK, I promise, I will whine no more about this nation’s current difficulties. SEASON 12: MOVING ON!
Wren, I’m sure you are probably already aware of this, and I don’t think it’s a spoiler either, but Mr Ketch was a real historical person, as Mr Gaiman well knows. A name to send shivers down one’s spine. Even more than Scary Spice.
// Indeed, and what have the Romans ever done for us?
(Again, I think Monty Python had the power of prophecy, as that is pretty much the leave campaign’s manifesto in one sentence.) //
Oh boy.
What if SPN tries to “comment” on all of these events? Do we think they know what they’re doing here, and trying to wrap it all into a metaphor? I hope not.
I think you’re entitled to some whining, Helena.
It’s been a nonstop whine-fest here for months. It’s riding my last frayed nerve.
// Mr Ketch was a real historical person, as Mr Gaiman well knows. A name to send shivers down one’s spine. Even more than Scary Spice. //
Ooh!! Looking up now.
Speaking of real historical people who send shivers down the spine:
In case you all haven’t seen this, this is fascinating:
http://www.openculture.com/2016/10/aleister-crowley-reads-occult-poetry-in-the-only-known-recordings-of-his-voice-1920.html
// a solidly constructed episode with a surprising amount of space for grown up emotions, and not too much Crowley and Rowena. I’m all for original-recipe Cas, too, long may he stay that way. //
Helena: agreed on all counts!
// Her colleague – Mike??? – where is he really from, though? Dick Van Dyke-land? //
hahahaha
You know, I was watching some of this – and the British vs. America thing – and filtering it through my own nation’s time of trial at the moment – a British friend of mine said, “Watching what’s going on in your country right now at least gives me the comfort that Britain is not actually the stupidest nation of 2016.” He said it so deadpan.
I can’t say I feel your pain – although I have my own at present politically – but I can totally understand what you are saying.
I wondered if the whole “we have every dock warded” nonsense was somehow referencing the gigantic bureaucracy of the EU – but for me, it still didn’t make sense – monsters, as we know, have all kinds of ways to get past warding. Also, as I said somewhere else – America is a continent, Miss Thing, or at least half of one – it’s a little bit different than a small island!
One thing I like about this Men of Letters thing – although it doesn’t have the same resonance:
It’s (slightly, now, not totally) reminiscent of Agent Hendriksen: Sam and Deans exploits catching up to them in the form of an outside agency – concerned about the damage they wreak while doing their jobs. Now Agent H, of course, had so much charisma that he seemed like a completely worthy and entertaining enemy – also you could understand where he was coming from – as Jessie’s imagined diary entry from Agent H shows – what do Sam and Dean look like to outsiders??
That’s kind of an interesting thing to explore, possibly – especially considering their grandfather’s prejudice against hunters. To have Sam and Dean – these dirty reckless grunts – living in the Grand Palace of the Men of Letters organization – must grate.
However, it’s just one more piece of evidence showing the Men of Letters now in the light of a gigantic systematic bureaucracy – which has taken away some of the magic of it, some of the eccentricity of it.
// But yes, plenty of British buried rage, privilege, hypocrisy and self-delusion in Lady Penelope de Thunderbird, or whoever this particular iteration of Posh Female Brit is supposed to be, so maybe she’s not so far off the mark. //
I haven’t checked: is that actress actually British? To my untrained ears, her accent sounds flawless, but I may be wrong.
//“Watching what’s going on in your country right now at least gives me the comfort that Britain is not actually the stupidest nation of 2016.” //
Well, this is a delightful thought, but I think the jury is still out on that one.
//“we have every dock warded”//
Memo to MoL! Just the other day people’s kettles and webcams were hacked to bring down Twitter. Up your game, people!
//somehow referencing the gigantic bureaucracy of the EU //
I love the idea of SPN commenting on Brexit so much I’d like to marry it. But the British did invent red tape, and for a definitive image of the strangulating effects of bureaucracy look no further from these shores than Dickens and Little Dorrit or Bleak House. Although I think the Hapsburgs give the Brits a run for their money and they gave the world Kafka so now I’m looking forward to an SPN episode featuring a Lady Toni running around after a giant beetle with a German accent.
//Sam and Deans exploits catching up to them in the form of an outside agency //
I like this idea of a giant human system pursuing Sam and Dean a whole lot, and am also totally ready for a break from cosmic Big Bads after last season. And there are few things more frightening than a zealot like Naomi the angel, or someone who’ll go after you because you offend their sense of tidiness. The heterogenous heritage of Sam and Dean must be very offensive to people Lady Toni de Thing who want their gardens free of weeds and, whisper it, prefer a more rigidly defined class sytem (although time will tell what’s really driving her). Oh dear, I am sounding a bit like a revolting peasant here – that’s the Brits, we just can’t stop talking about class.
And great catch on Agent Henriksen of Blessed Memory. I was also thinking that Lady de Thing reminded me of (gasp) Bela Mk II – posh, very damaged, and very entitled. Maybe they went to the same finishing school?
IMDB tells me Mme Toni de la Ting is played by an Australian, so make of that what you will.
oh dear, my apologies, so many italics. Just keep calm and carry on.
I fixed it!
I didn’t mean to share my friend’s comment as any “we are better than you” thing at all – not my style, not how I feel! – it was just so funny how he said it: “Oh thank GOD you guys are so fucked up over there, it makes me feel so much better.” We were roaring. and of course, believe me, I know the jury is still out. The mood here right now honestly cannot be described – and I’ve been thru many elections. Never ever been thru anything like this.
I’m actually going to be in Hawaii on election day. Far away from anybody that I know. No friends, no family, all strangers. I got a gig that will take me there. Yay me! But I have this weird sense of … I want to be with people I love as those votes are counted, not among strangers in a strange and tropic land. My flame was like, “Come over. I’ll cook for you. We’ll drink whiskey and wait for the results.” How much do I want to do that? Not that I’m not excited for Hawaii. I’ve never been there. Pearl Harbor. Elvis spots of interest everywhere. But not on THAT day. I was like, “Dude, I already told you, I’m gonna be gone for like 10 days, please absorb that information.”
Anyway. BAH. An entire nation on the verge of a nervous breakdown.
Let’s leave politics behind – although a British vs. American Men/Women/Douches of Letters has clearly brought me to this point.
oh, and fixed the italics tag. Carrying on!
Sheila –
Are you just on Oahu or will you get to any of the other islands? The tour of the USS Missouri is excellent, just FYI. If you’ve ever been on the USS Constitution tour in Boston you’ll notice that sailors have always had freaking tiny places to sleep.
//“we are better than you”//
goodness me, not taken in that spirit at all, the reverse actually ;-)
//Let’s leave politics behind //
Amen to that and cosign!!!
Hawaiiiiiiiii!!!That sounds super exciting!!!!!
Helena – oops, I’m sorry!! I am slightly (??)paranoid/sensitive due to …. well, everything that is happening over here right now and how awful it is and must look and DOES look. Blowing off steam across the Atlantic with someone who had his own nationalist embarrassment made me feel like there are still sane people left in the world. Even if our governments have gone off the rails.
and yes, Hawaii! It’s coming up so quickly and I am nowhere near close to being ready – I’m teaching a workshop – so I’m putting together a syllabus, etc., and I have no time – or, clearly I do, if I would just stop commenting on my own blog. Hahaha
Never mind, I’ll pull it all together!
I can’t wait! I wish I wasn’t going to be there on election day far away from loved ones – but I am excited to go.
Mutecypher – not only will I not get to travel to the other islands, I will barely leave the hotel where I’m staying. :)
But I will carve out time to go to the USS Arizona memorial to pay my respects. I’ve always wanted to go. Also, Elvis helped fund that memorial with the proceeds from a concert in 1961.
But other than that, too busy to do any sightseeing.
// and am also totally ready for a break from cosmic Big Bads after last season. //
I do agree with this!
So far what we’ve seen has been in keeping with the weirdo ending of Season 11 – which, okay, let’s put aside the wretched quality of the last 3 episodes – I’m just talking about the fact that that final episode was pretty much only about family. and ending with Mary calling through the dark.
NOT something like, “Okay, so as the Darkness leaves – here comes an even WORSE monster from the deep that somehow nobody has told us about before!”
In re: bureaucracy: I suppose one needs a bureaucracy is one has a globe-spanning Empire! Jarndyce and Jarndyce, and etc. The Hapsburgs gave us Klimt too, and Stefan Zweig – maybe there’s something about militarized bureaucracy that makes artists even more brilliant and productive.
// The heterogenous heritage of Sam and Dean must be very offensive to people Lady Toni de Thing who want their gardens free of weeds and, whisper it, prefer a more rigidly defined class sytem (although time will tell what’s really driving her). //
Ha! I hadn’t really put that together – but yes – I mean, even Henry Winchester (non-British though he may be) had an elitist sense of himself as being far above the rabble-rousing hunters. So I wonder.
I was thinking of Bela as well, in regards to Angry Spice! That also may be because I just re-watched some of Season 3 in preparation for my next re-cap which naturally will be ready to go a month and a half from now. I LOVE BELA.
//I like this idea of a giant human system pursuing Sam and Dean a whole lot, and am also totally ready for a break from cosmic Big Bads after last season. //
I like this, too. I wonder if Frank Devereaux will return. He’s be useful in that sort of fight. As would Charlie… Unhappy sigh.
///any suggestions these days about British efficiency evoke painful emotions these days, as the British antics vis a vis a certain recent referendum have been demonstrating that as a nation we would have trouble planning packed lunches for the week ahead.///
Oh, Helena, this made me laugh! You have such a way with words, lady. (I may or may not have read every comment you’ve ever left on one of Sheila’s incredible SPN recaps, so I apologize for my lack of reserve, but the result of my years-long lurking is that I feel like I know you a tiny bit. Again, apologies if I’ve overstepped.)
This episode is, in my extremely humble opinion, the best Buckleming episode in Show history. I realize that’s a low bar, but progress is progress nonetheless. It makes me hopeful for the future of season 12, with the possible exception of a reanimated Hitler who’s purported to be “kind of a Richard Simmons-type character” according to Andrew Dabb. Girding my loins for that one!
Sarah – totally agreed in re: Helena’s awesomeness.
I take (slight) responsibility that she even started watching the show – correct me if I’m wrong, Helena!! – but her contributions have been amazing – not to mention her ARTWORK. BAH! It’s so good!!
You are 100% responsible for me watching SPN, Sheila, but my only real contribution has been regarding the correct use of teapots. But this is an amazing ongoing conversation, an it’s a privilege to be able to take part.
Sarah, thank you – it’s good to meet you here!
// my only real contribution has been regarding the correct use of teapots. / /
hahahaha that thread about Cassie’s teapot behavior is really one for the books.
And as mentioned elsewhere in this thread: Sam bringing tea to his mother? In a teacup? (“Do you have bigger cups?”) As Dean got drunk by himself downstairs? It was amazing!
I’m sorry to be that pain in the ass, but I was wondering if we could warn beforehand when we’re going to talk about a guest or a plot line or whatever that has not come up in an episode yet. I’ve read two spoilers in a few days, and I’m sorry, but it really, actually does spoil my experience of watching the show.
Please, people, mind the anti-spoiler freaks!:)
I actively avoid commercials for future episodes and it’s one of the reason I avoid interviews, too, and anything that might give anything away. So I agree with you!!
I know a lot of people watch commercials/promos and know what’s coming – it’s just not my thing.
and yes I’ll put a little “Pretty please no spoilers from commercials/conventions/Tweets/whatever” in the next post I put up. :)
Finally watched. Reactions before I read everyone else’s:
First the stuff I’m not crazy about:
Rowena and Crowley snapping at each other in a bored way … again??? Please! Who is this helping! Rowena had her day. Her neck should have stayed snapped. I don’t think I can bear yet another season with the two of them doing same ol’ same ol’. Her presence also emasculates Mark Sheppard – which somehow neutralizes Crowley entirely – which makes his presence seem pointless. Crowley needs to be unleashed and entertaining – if he is going to serve any purpose at all. Making Mark Sheppard bored and eyeroll-y for three seasons now hasn’t done anyone any good. Bah. Rowena.
I will reserve judgment (sort of) on the British Men of Letters thing although I am irritated at some of their criticisms of the good old USA. Okay, so you all have controlled the monsters in England. Good for you. America is a CONTINENT, though – not a small island – maybe there are more challenges controlling a CONTINENT?? But that’s really neither here nor there. I’m not crazy about SPN moving into James-Bond-Land, frankly. But whatever, I’ll wait and see how it plays out! At least all of the British Men of Letters we have seen thus far can actually act – unlike the rent-a-demons-and-angels who have been tormenting me with their terrible line readings for 3 seasons now. Each one – the blonde, her sidekick, the boss-man – they all can actually act and bring tension, and come off as at least interesting enough to hold the screen with JP and JA (not an easy task).
Now for stuff I liked/loved:
I am really enjoying Castiel in this season thus far, and I can’t believe I’m saying that because I’ve been done with him since … Season 9, I think? Like: “why are you still here, and why are they giving you so much screen time?” I know, I know, Misha’s fan base (who just blew a collective gasket because Misha spelled Cas with 2 s’s.) However: I am very much liking him in what I see to be his proper place: as sidekick/support-staff to the Winchesters – with a re-commitment to his cluelessness and humorlessness – none of that cutesy stuff that has driven me BONKERS for seasons now. He’s had some very funny lines so far (“Are we still talking about the same thing?”) And so I have warmed up to him again. I also liked that Dean opened up to him about feeling awkward with Mary. Of course Castiel was no help – but that was a moment where the show seemed to remember Castiel’s real value – and that was as sidekick, not his own damn spinoff show in the middle of SPN. So, I’m very happy with Castiel thus far. I, personally, find Misha Collins to be best when he is a veritable statue of both cluelessness and competence. I still don’t know what Castiel IS, though. Is he still an angel?
About the script:
The last sequence was extraordinary, with each Winchester doing their own thing in their own way – with the perfect song choice. This was the depth and complexity that Natalie had mentioned in the last thread – and I also mentioned it – something I hoped would be explored. That Mom coming back would not be entirely a relief – nor would it be the overwhelming emotion we saw when Dean lived out his life if Mary had never died. It would be … different. And so here – with Dean feeling awkward – and Sam being shy (his body language as he hovered in the doorway with the cup of tea – afraid to approach – God, he’s so good) – and Mary being somewhat … detached, maybe? I find her detachment fascinating. That’s not exactly the right word. She knows she needs to catch up. She feels guilt about having started all of this. She must look at those two hulking giants – and not be able to see the children/babies they once were. Her memory of John is that he was a good father. (Dean’s reaction to that comment.) She basically has missed everything – and so on some level she doesn’t “get it.” Not yet. And she grew up in a hunter family with an intact marriage, Mom cooking the family supper every night, etc. That was not the childhood that her children had.
anyway: the mix of all of these different energies was truly fascinating and emotional to behold.
Sam lying in bed, staring at the ceiling fan. I am remembering that horrifying scene in Bobby’s panic room – when Mary appeared to him (such a well-written scene) – it had a similar God’s eye point of view. Sam never knew his mother. The way he looked at her across the table – with this almost helpless look of excitement and wordless joy …
I am really interested to see where all of this goes.
The episode opening with Sam basically “finishing.” And then … being ready to go again like 2 seconds later. More, please. I know it’s a fantasy but still I buy it. I knew it wasn’t real – maybe because of the candles? And Sam drinking wine? What?? I liked that: she got inside his head. Attraction doesn’t always make sense. It’s primal urges.
I still have hopes that the deaf Irish hunter will return this season. Have a feeling she will – she went over so big with fans. and Sam’s final comment to her “if you just want to hang out …” Hang out?? When do those fully grown men hang out with ANYONE other than one another?
I am definitely feeling the lack of Girls on the show right now. Rowena isn’t doing it for me.
I love how Mary’s return has not reunited the family. No group hug. No tears even. And it ends with each of them in their own private world.
Dean looking longingly at childhood pictures. Wow. That is some deep shit. She’s back. and he doesn’t feel like he thought he would feel. He maybe prefers her as a memory. and what a guilt-trip THAT must be.
There’s probably more I’m forgetting. That’s it for now.
Now I’ll read the rest of your comments.
and how could I forget?
Rick Springfield was superb: haunted and grief-struck in the opening sequence – and deliciously powerful once Lucifer entered.
His performance in Rikki and the Flash was so good – as good as Streep’s. He stole their major scene from right under her nose. He gave as good as he got – and consider who he was playing opposite.
In regards to Springfield:
I was also happy to see just how stylized his hotel room and hallway were. Jerry Wanek going apeshit. It was not generic. It was extremely SPECIFIC and made that hallway look like some kind of chilly ante-chamber to something dreadful. I also liked the shot of the guy sliding down the hallway on his back towards the camera.
<em I know it’s a fantasy but still I buy it. I knew it wasn’t real – maybe because of the candles? And Sam drinking wine? What?? I liked that: she got inside his head. Attraction doesn’t always make sense. It’s primal urges.
Sheila could you talk a little more about your read on that scene? Because I could only read it as an assault or something, just — really awful for him. Not to do with his desires at all. Her “was it good for you” comment – heinous! I saw shame on his face. I think it was Lyrie above who mentioned the Rick Springfield and dead girlfriend parallel with Lucifer-as-Jess from back in the day – I definitely saw that – but I also saw blonde serpent in Sam’s bed as a parallel too.
But to all your other points — seconded! The lazily-swooping fan in Bobby’s panic room & the bunker ceiling fan – these are the queasy connections and reverberances I love the show for. Even if a mute reaction shot of a fan kinda had me giggling.
That’s it! Thats the last typo! With God as my witnezs I VOW TO NEVER AGAIN POST FROM A MOBILE DEVICE
JESUS CHRIST
Jessie –
Yeah, I felt awful for him too – and it made me sick to my stomach especially in the moments he looked relaxed. (Ah, Supernatural, I love that I get nervous for Sam and Dean when they look relaxed!)
My reaction may be influenced by the fact that I just saw Paul Verhoeven’s “Elle” – which I will be reviewing – and which looks like it will be one of the most controversial movies of the year. (I looooooved it. But the Outrage Mobile has already left the station and the movie hasn’t even opened yet.) So the thought of how attraction works – and how attraction sometimes doesn’t make sense – or shows up in areas where you don’t want it … that’s been on my mind. (When half of my building burned down in 2011 – and my cat was lost in the chaos – not found for 3 days – and I had to be put up in a motel until the building was fixed and cleaned up – I got into a fight with a representative from the county, who was treating me with total disrespect. I was traumatized: my cat was gone, I had no home, I had no idea what was lost in there … and he was a dick to me, treating me like I was an over-reacting pain in the ass just for asking, “So when can I get back into my apartment?” Dude: I have no home right now. I only have the clothes on my back. And suddenly, in the middle of our altercation, which was pretty heated, I noticed that he was extreeeeeeeeemely attractive. Or … sexy. I thought to myself, “Maybe we should settle this in bed. Naked.” Clearly I was somewhat out of my mind – and if I saw that guy right now, I might not think he was attractive at all … but in the weirdest most improbable moment, there was Sex. And it wasn’t a response to someone being kind and generous to me. Like: “Oh my God, you’re so awesome, my home is burnt, I want to kiss you for being kind.” It was a response to someone being a total asshole to me. I realize that this says a lot about me!! Hahaha I thought it was pretty funny at the time.)
Even more queasy-making: torture is intimate. Right? You’re up in each other’s bodies. I’m not saying it’s sexual. But that the lines can be blurred – that there’s something about having POWER over somebody else – and she clearly gets off on it. So that’s on her side. Manipulating him into that fantasy – where he’s loosened up and happy and open – makes sense on her side – and – in the world of that basement, where Sam can’t escape – where they have been intimately involved with one another – it’s like they are the only two people alive in the world. Zero Dark Thirty deals with that a lot: the relationship that develops between torturer and torture-ee – and how incredibly upside-down inside-out it all can get. The torture-ee depends on the torturer – and time sort of stands still inside the torture chamber. The only relationship that exists is the relationship between the two people involved.
Imagining a world – an alternate reality – where the two of them were romping it up in bed – DID seem like a relief to him – you can tell in those opening moments – like: “Oh, okay, it’s all okay now …”
It’s sick. And gross. But sex – at least in terms of power dynamics – creeps its way into a lot of sick situations.
My thoughts are all over the place but I blame “Elle,” the soon-to-be-reigning-queen of Ambiguous Sex and Power Dynamics.
thanks for expanding on this! very intriguing and your personal experience is fascinating. I don’t know if I am all the way there with you; probably because I understood the hallucination/dream/whatever to be crafted and directed from the outside — that might not necessarily be the case and we’ll probably never know.
I think what really makes it troublesome (in a good way, for the purposes of storytelling) is that pleasure was involved. Once again, Sam’s body was working against him (whether or not his body had any reaction in the real world). Like Dean in Hell with his torturer, coming down off the rack and enjoying hurting others. Feelings of culpability, shame. It’s really messy, and that’s not even getting into the questioning of reality that’s involved. Oh god, poor guy! How can he trust sexual pleasure after this? Attraction?
People are FLIPPING THEIR LIDS about this first scene of the episode too. I had a visceral feeling of its wrongness but I was also excited by its deep skeeviness, like I was excited by the first Sam-Lucifer interaction last season. The ball was dropped horrendously on that one, but the potential for character work is so high. I really hope they deliver. I, too, want to get inside Sam!
But I mean, it’s interesting! This is not the kind of territory your male hero protags usually get to inhabit. It’s part of a bundle of issues Sam’s been dealing with since S3 at least. I find it compelling.
Jessie – yeah, it’s a touchy topic – even suggesting that people could get “off” on torture – but SPN has always crossed over those lines a little bit. And has always been seriously queasy about consent.
Like, you say “Yes” to Michael – for example – you are “consenting” to rape. I’m sorry – that’s so blunt – but that to me was what the dilemma was (alongside stopping the Apocalypse). Both brothers were struggling during that season about whether or not to consent to being penetrated. I mean, Jeez Louise. and they would hate it, but they would consent to it.
(This is basically what happens in Elle. Or: she is violently raped. And then ends up pursuing violence – and getting into it. Clearly, “enemies” – ie men who don’t get it, who don’t understand consent – are going to use Elle as some example – and some film critics – all male – have already called it “feminist” – which really really sticks in my craw. It’s not feminist or not-feminist. It’s looking at the reaction of this one particularly complicated woman to being assaulted. and she does NOTHING by the books, she doesn’t do anything she’s “supposed” to do, starting with not reporting it, and then taking a long bath. And her behavior after that becomes increasingly difficult to deal with – people are furious about it. Anyway: these issues have been on my mind since I’ve been struggling with putting them into words for this review. I will then be pursued with pitchforks down to the river by an angry mob, and I’m ready!)
// Once again, Sam’s body was working against him (whether or not his body had any reaction in the real world). Like Dean in Hell with his torturer, coming down off the rack and enjoying hurting others. Feelings of culpability, shame. It’s really messy, and that’s not even getting into the questioning of reality that’s involved. Oh god, poor guy! How can he trust sexual pleasure after this? Attraction? //
Yes. That’s it. That’s what I sensed. He had pleasure. He also was “on top.” So that makes sense too. He’s been tied up and tortured: she’s been “on top.” In the fantasy – at least what we saw – he was on top. That was clearly her manipulation of what he really wanted – not sexually, but in terms of their power dynamic. “Let’s let him feel like a man – let’s let him be on top for once – maybe then he’ll spill the beans.”
It’s super gross, and destabilizing – especially because Sam is so easily masculine, he owns it easily without having to huff and puff about it – unlike his brother (Frontierland. The Apex of the difference.)
// I was also excited by its deep skeeviness, like I was excited by the first Sam-Lucifer interaction last season. The ball was dropped horrendously on that one, but the potential for character work is so high. I really hope they deliver. I, too, want to get inside Sam! //
Me too.
Are people flipping out because … I mean, I get it. But I think it’s totally clear that the show does not ENDORSE “rapey-ness’ – but instead is (to some weird degree) ABOUT the inherent rapey-ness of the world.
It’s like people calling David Cronenberg’s Dead Ringers misogynist. To me, it’s CRITIQUING misogyny – one of the best examples of its kind. The fascinating/horror men have of women’s invisible interior – how much men want to get in there – how much they resent that they can’t see what’s going on in there.
Sorry to be so blunt.
I think flipping out is a natural response. But I think sometimes people get nervous about showing such things without explicitly condemning them – you know?
That happened with Wolf of Wall Street – where people flipped out about how misognyist it was. But Scorsese has made an entire career out of showing what happens when men leave women OUT of their lives. It’s never pretty. and if the movie seemed to glorify it – it’s because it was a first-person narrative – with this douchebag talking directly to the camera about how awesome his life was. Nobody in their right mind would ever look at Wolf of Wall Street as an ENDORSEMENT.
But people get very worried about that. (I don’t. But many people do. People are already very very worried about Elle. How can she – for example – like really rough rough ROUGH sex – after what happened to her? To me, it makes perfect sense – because sexuality isn’t neat, or proper … some really fucked-up associations can happen – and people who are more – maybe vanilla? I don’t like that term – it’s very judgey – but people who think there’s a prescribed way to feel sexual pleasure – get very uncomfortable. and I think we’re meant to feel uncomfortable.
I may be way way off-track here.
BACK TO SAM.
I feel like having Sam flash back to all the people he’s lost is a good sign of where they – hopefully – will go – to get into Sam’s trauma, residual guilt, feelings about his brother (how he let Dean down – there was already some of that last season). Dean is always a psychological mess. Sam is too – in a different way – and they have GOT to keep expressing that – otherwise it’s a huge disservice to the character JP has created.
I’m feeling like that’s the way it’s going – opening the entire season with Sam being tortured – and fucked – over 2 whole episodes.
// This is not the kind of territory your male hero protags usually get to inhabit. It’s part of a bundle of issues Sam’s been dealing with since S3 at least. I find it compelling. //
Oh man – me too. Cosign all of that.
Putting men in this position – letting us see how they deal with it – the sheer FACT of their bodies under stress – or NOT under stress – just who they are physically – and then put into these situations – huge hook for me.
(Sometimes SPN has really screwed up and become rapey in and of itself – Meg being tortured, pizza man, GROSS. But in general, it seems to be about these two men trying to resist being overtaken and dominated and penetrated, becoming a “condom” for someone else. Like: their agency is seriously compromised.)
So I don’t know. Yes: totally skeevy and (in my opinion) by design.
I felt like Castiel “banging” the reaper was … well, I don’t know what that was. It didn’t seem to please anyone. Definitely rapey, definitely not treated as such by the brothers later – which (for me) made sense – they both were like, “Holy shit, he just lost his virginity.” as opposed to “Holy shit, what just happened to you was super-wrong.”
But Dean and Sam have consent issues all around – because of the lives they lead – so it makes sense they wouldn’t be up to speed on all of the varieties of sexual assault and how you’re supposed to talk about it.
I don’t know. I may be reading too much into it.
The Outrage over the opening scene has echoed way back to even my tiny nook of Tumblr. From what I can tell it’s something along the lines of ‘OMG, that scene was totally gratuitous, that was not necessary to the plot, the writers need to stop doing these things to Sam, I don’t think Dabb even understood it was rape, why was it presented in a romantic way!!!’
Which, ugh. Tone-deaf complaints, imo.
// I don’t think Dabb even understood it was rape, why was it presented in a romantic way!!!’ //
This kind of mis-read happens so often in film criticism too. Of course they understood it was bad – but in the fantasy it was presented as “good” because she was messing with his brain and that was her desperate method of torture since pain clearly wasn’t working.
SHOWING something is not an endorsement.
I mean, sometimes it is, for sure. But definitely not always.
This kind of conflict is constant in the show – but yeah: opening with a sex scene is totally not SPN’s style – it was startling – and I think it was meant to be so. I couldn’t believe it, myself!! – I immediately felt something was off – the candles, the wine – and the fact that it was HER.
Initially I thought it was Sam, near unconsciousness, falling into a reverie – which would have made these people flip out even more – and I thought my own confusion was kind of fabulous, because it went into all these weird places in my mind, trying to figure it out. but JP was great at showing momentary flashes of confusion, when reality started pushing into his brain.
//But Dean and Sam have consent issues all around – because of the lives they lead – so it makes sense they wouldn’t be up to speed on all of the varieties of sexual assault and how you’re supposed to talk about it.//
Right. I’m not saying it is great, but in a world where you’ve been attacked, penetrated, and killed countless times (add to that: you’ve been an demon/demon blood sucker/attacker yourself), you’re certainly not seeing that one sexual encounter as very problematic (for that guy who, you know, is barely human, though of himself as a god at some point, is responsible for how many deaths…).
I’m not saying it’s ideal. I’m saying, it’s realistic – as much as SPN can be – and it makes sense. Can you imagine those two guys sitting Castiel down to talk about consent? Come on!
More importantly, I’m sorry, but if these guys treated everything like that, they would have died a long time ago. Not making a big deal out of things is a very effective defense mechanism when you’re living shitty stuff (cf. our conversation somewhere about the notions of victim/survivor?)
If you’re not considering that, as a viewer, don’t you have a pretty simplistic approach?
//opening with a sex scene is totally not SPN’s style – it was startling //
Traditionally, SPN opens with a horror scene. Just that should tell us Dabb KNOWS what he’s doing.
// More importantly, I’m sorry, but if these guys treated everything like that, they would have died a long time ago. //
Most definitely!!
Even calling something “traumatic” is not really in their language. They just pick up and keep going.
and yeah – the victim/survivor thing was in the post I wrote about being assaulted last year and how I didn’t want to label myself a victim OR a survivor – it happened, I punched him, I moved on, The End.
// Can you imagine those two guys sitting Castiel down to talk about consent? Come on! //
ha. I know.
That’s one of the reasons why that dinner-table talk at Jodie’s with the two girls was so funny – because you could see Sam and Dean actually thinking; “Huh … how has my behavior been? Uhm … yeah. I’m not really the one to give advice here because … Jeez, I hope all the women I’ve screwed have felt okay about it … let me go through my list to make sure …”
I mean, you could see both of them doing that. It was so great.
Denial/repression/compartmentalization are survival skills that probably began when the first caveman watched his baby-cave-boy mauled by a saber-tooted tiger. There are no support groups. You push that shit down and move on.
So it’s a very useful skill. We never would have survived as a human race without it.
And then you can see what happens when it doesn’t work. Veterans who return with PTSD. Orphans adopted from horrific Romanian orphanages back in the 80s/90s – they never fully adjusted. This is not to judge people who cannot absorb trauma. AT ALL.
It is just to say that repression is useful in certain situations. There were studies done post-9/11 showing that the therapists who descended upon New York and got people to keep talking about what had happened did very little to help those who had survived the attacks. In many cases it did more damage, and the studies showed that those who repressed the memory – who buried themselves in work or hobbies or whatever – fared much better.
What is amazing is that Sam and Dean have any sexually healthy impulses remaining at all. But they do! They have compartmentalized.
//SHOWING something is not an endorsement.
//
Honestly, when the Outrage started trickling down to me, the first thing I thought of was your Wolf of Wall St piece.
I thought the scene was great, in a way. Yes- that ‘what the hell is going on’ element- which reminded me of the beginning of last season’s Devil in the Details (Crowley in a onesie, etc). Like- end on Sam in Hell- open on Crowley staring into a bauble. Love that stuff. It’s so absurd.
//Traditionally, SPN opens with a horror scene. Just that should tell us Dabb KNOWS what he’s doing.//
Chills. But, yeah, absolutely. the little flashes of reality were very well-done, I thought.
Obviously these people MEAN well- but my god- where would SPN be if it couldn’t be messy/ambiguous/subversive about issues of sex, consent, rape? Pizza man, yes, gross, but agreed: mostly they’re v. intelligent about it. Not ‘sensitive’, but intelligent (which, fine by me.)
Also- the nudity felt subversive to me. Like- zero skin is shown in ‘Baby’, where the fans would have JUMPED on it. Yet here?
A bit like the shifting scene in ‘Skin’. What they want in a way they don’t expect, amirite?
//There were studies done post-9/11 showing that the therapists who descended upon New York and got people to keep talking about what had happened did very little to help those who had survived the attacks. In many cases it did more damage, //
Fascinating! Would love to read more about that.
//What is amazing is that Sam and Dean have any sexually healthy impulses remaining at all. But they do! They have compartmentalized.//
It is, but it also is not that far-fetched to me. That is one of my beefs with therapy-get-better-everything-will-be-alright current: the belief that if not everything is talked about and resolved, you’re definitely, completely fucked. Like there are no grey areas in which you can function pretty well, or even really well. Like, this belief that a woman who has been raped is forever broken. It does happen. But the opposite also happens (if not, humanity would have been extinct a while ago imo), and just because society tells us those women have lost their value doesn’t mean it’s true, or that they can’t enjoy sex anymore.
It’s a bit of a tangent, but not really. And I love that this is – somehow – explored with those two guys.
Lyrie –
// Like, this belief that a woman who has been raped is forever broken. //
Okay, so when it comes out, I beg you to see Elle. I think it’s opening in November. Starring the great Isabelle Huppert.
You may despise it, but I definitely would love to talk with you about it – because this is one of the things it is about.
She tells people she was raped and they immediately start treating her as though she is broken forever and she is having NONE of it.
and I agree with you in re: Sam and Dean not being totally messed up sexually. People make sense of their world in all kinds of ways. People react to violence in all kinds of ways.
There was a great Op-Ed piece in the NY Times a couple of years after 9/11 that I think was called In Praise of Repression. I’ll see if I can find it. I had definitely repressed much that I saw that day – and even now, if I see pictures or footage of the buildings falling – my brain shuts off. My eyes flit away.
I think that’s true of a lot of us here, who saw it all happen. What’s the use of going over it? At NO point, will I look at that footage and feel “okay” or un-traumatized. It’s done. and I’m not OKAY with it but I have dealt with it the way I can and the way I feel I had to.
and I didn’t have it as bad as so many other people – like my sister who was downtown and had to run away from the buildings with dead bodies falling all around her. You know?
I am not anti-therapy. But a lot of this talk-therapy stuff has not been peer-reviewed, and it’s a bazillion dollar business so there is so much resistance to actually looking at it.
One of the things I really appreciate about SPN is its understanding that you don’t just “hug it out” with some tears and move on. These traumatic things have lasted seasons – they have FORMED these guys – here Sam is, 12 years later, calling out “Jess!!” at the hallucination – it’s realistic! (You know, in a supernatural kind of way.)
Wren –
// Also- the nudity felt subversive to me. Like- zero skin is shown in ‘Baby’, where the fans would have JUMPED on it. Yet here? //
Ha! Exactly!
It’s funny how they work with this – and use our feelings about their bodies – and how they’re covered up – it’s a striptease the whole show. and then they show us the guys naked and we’re all, “Cover up, please, I’m nervous!!”
I guess I didn’t even realize that Sam had hair on his chest. Is this new? Did I hallucinate it? I seem to recall a hairless centaur from seasons past. and last I remember Dean was hairless too. But I was like, “Woah, look at hairy Sam” and I felt happy and also grossed-out.
hahahaha
Oh, Supernatural, I can’t quit you.
(not grossed out because of the hair – I personally like hairy men – tee hee – but grossed out because the whole scene made me feel uncomfortable. I was all a mess: “candles? hair on the chest? look at his body oh my god. why is he having sex with her? I love it when Sam has sex. Oh God stop having sex.” and etc. That was basically my thought process.)
//One of the things I really appreciate about SPN is its understanding that you don’t just “hug it out” with some tears and move on. These traumatic things have lasted seasons – they have FORMED these guys – here Sam is, 12 years later, calling out “Jess!!” at the hallucination – it’s realistic!//
There seems to be a certain section of fannish discourse/fanfic that revolves around the trope ‘X character breaks down over X trauma, Y character notices, shoulder crying, etc, Thus Follows the Path to Healing.’ Now of course I have no problem with this. But also- that seems like a dictated response, almost- what we are SUPPOSED to do. Fans want SPN to do this & lampoon it when it doesn’t. We get flickers of things (Sam’s cut palm, Dean having MoC nightmares, etc) but mostly they just sit there and they deal. Or don’t deal, however you want to look at it.
It’s old-fashioned, I suppose. I think it’s interesting, what the show does in response to trauma. Things are never neatly shelved.
// But also- that seems like a dictated response, almost- what we are SUPPOSED to do. Fans want SPN to do this & lampoon it when it doesn’t. //
Interesting.
and of course – fan fic is where you express what you want to happen and yearn to happen. It’s a testament to the show that its audience so wants peace for its main characters. But in the show itself – I mean, that’s just not the show they’re watching.
And please remind me: when did Sam cut his palm? What is that moment??
I agree with Jessie about the shame. Contrast this with the Bela scene, where she most likely got into his dream through dream root. He was embarrassed by his reaction, by the dream sex, but no shame. Toni’s dig was so forgiveably awful – “was it good for you?” Don’t think I can ever forgive her character for all of it, no matter what her backstory as a mom or whatever her experiences have been to make her so hard.
*unforgivably not forgivably arghghghg
I saw shame, too. But shame can also be present in sexual situations. It’s not black or white. Sam has a lot of experience sleeping with the enemy, shall we say. Having sex with someone while also loathing the person he is having sex with – and loathing himself for enjoying it so much.
I just realized that the first time Sam meets his mother, he (probably) just came in his pants. I mean…
or …. as we just saw in the episode … he came the moment BEFORE he met his mother.
#sorrynotsorry
Lyrie –
You gave me a hard time about my candle pun?
You brought your A game to the “ewww” sweepstakes.
LOL.
I know. I’m evil.
Alexander Camelton? Ha ha ha ha!!
I know, I was dying …
Carolyn —
I’m get the feeling that they heard about some of the complaints about what happened at the end of the season and are trying to repair some of the damage.
This is definitely what I HOPE, particularly with respect to Sam’s relationship to reality and his own body and experiences with characters like Lucifer — between that and the continuity-fest of the last two episodes I do hope that they are going to delve more into what this latest experience has meant for Sam. All of this trauma and toturer-alliances and destabilisation….is he just going to keep eating it?
While some of the character moments in this episode were great (particularly around Mary and what she means; and it’s fascinating how JOHN is the invoked or silent shadow to every conversation now), the more I think about the logistics of it the more I am baffled by how any of it is supposed to fit together or what it means for characterisation or motivation. Dean just…toodles off to the bunker while Cas walks around Indiana or whatever? Sam, after a few days or whatever of quality hallucinating is just like o hai dead bro and ma, this must be real? And I agree with all y’all that Lady Penelope’s stated motivations for interrogating Sam are implausible as hell.
Sarah —
Welcome!! & yes I agree Helena is too good for this world, too pure. Re: Buckleming, Dean, and stupidity, that whole Chinese Spell/unconscious/”I read a book durr hurr” made me want to scream — HAVE THEY EVER HEARD ANY HUMAN BEING EVER SPEAK BEFORE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Helena —
I love the idea of SPN commenting on Brexit so much I’d like to marry it.
While I would like to marry this idea only so that I could divorce it and take it for everything it’s got and leave it crying in the gutter (one of the big problems True Blood ran into was trying to marry a civic argument about queer/marginalised rights to a story about actual murdering monsters), I am intrigued by the idea of Tarquin Fin-tim-lin-bin-whin-bim-lim-bus-stop-F’tang-F’tang-Olé-Biscuitbarrel (Silly Party) as the head of the Grand Ol’ Council or whatever.
Having said that, the conflict between Sam and Dean’s heterogeneity, mixed-bloodedness, mongrelness and the very Ordered Men of Letters has always been the thing that excited me most about the introduciton of this whole mythology because that’s when we’re talking about BLOOD. The other thing that excites me most: how have there not been like a million episodes about Dean Touching Something He Shouldn’t Have in the bunker and chaos ensuing???????
//While I would like to marry this idea only so that I could divorce it and take it for everything it’s got and leave it crying in the gutter //
just for the record, wanting to marry any possible SPN commentary on Brexit was a totally facetious comment on my part, as I do not for one second entertain the thought that SPN would actually do such a thing, nor should it ever. Sorry, I do tend to get carried away.
//Tarquin Fin-tim-lin-bin-whin-bim-lim-bus-stop-F’tang-F’tang-Olé-Biscuitbarrel //
It’s pronounced Fanshawe.
Oh my God, Helena, that link.
It is my duty to inform you that that is Helena’s own terrifying/illustrious/awe-inspiring catalogue of knitwear patterns, and her writing! Secret’s out, Ms Cardigan!
hahaha Yes!! Cant wait to delve in.
Ahem, half of it (the good half) is Jessie’s.
You get a prize if you can pronoun all those names without the aid of google (I couldn’t.)
oh thank goodness I thought you’d finally cracked.
How I would love for Detective Jones to come and stand around staring, bewildered and bewooldered, at the bunker.
Oh my God, guys, who ARE you?
//how have there not been like a million episodes about Dean Touching Something He Shouldn’t Have in the bunker and chaos ensuing??????// HOW INDEED. Such fertile ground.
I can’t believe the wicked witch is the only story they’ve done on these lines! I can think of like twenty classic sci-fi/horror TV plots that could come right out of Archive Room #1.
Totally.
Kinda like: “Does this taco taste funny?”
It could have been funny having Dean messing around and letting loose all this havoc by accident.
Paula, Do you remember the undiscovered conservatory on the roof, creepy and wildly overgrown by the killer plant that murdered its caretaker; who was, coincidentally, a woman masquerading as a British MOL transfer (a la Shakespere) which is why there was a claw foot tub behind a screen because she obviously couldn’t shower in the communal showerroom? Our own little fanfic, sigh.
While Sammy researches MOL records Dean unleashes Little Shop of Horrors on an unsuspecting world probably through the pipes when he tries to take a bath in that tub (because the man loves his hot & steamy soaks). I’m having ‘Maverick’ hot flashes, I mean flashbacks just thinking about it.
It’s your fault, Paula, you brought up “fertile ground”.
*scribbles notes down*sticks them in my journal next to observatory and swimming pool* Melanie – Tying our obsession with secrets rooms in the Bunker back to Dean releasing Audrey II through the pipes is GENIUS. We need to get this crew together live at a weekend retreat at Rufus’ cabin, drinking wine (or tea), and write that crack script and then sketch out our blueprint for all of the Bunker.
YES! To the script-writing, blueprint-sketching, wine & tea drinking retreat weekend. Rufus’ cabin not so much for me. How about Sherriff Donna’s spa now that the Peruvian fat-sucker has gotten a one way ticket home? Ooh, the observatory…
Jessie –
// particularly with respect to Sam’s relationship to reality and his own body and experiences with characters like Lucifer — between that and the continuity-fest of the last two episodes I do hope that they are going to delve more into what this latest experience has meant for Sam. All of this trauma and toturer-alliances and destabilisation….is he just going to keep eating it? //
This that you mention here has definitely been missing for me – and while I have really loved this new sense of completed confidence/competence from Sam – really, post Season 9 – it can’t be so complete that he basically forgets the rest of his whole life. It just doesn’t make sense AND it also deprives JP of access to Sam’s darkness/trauma/memories. That’s the major crime.
Bringing up Ruby – having him see Jess – these are good signs to me. We all know Dean is usually on some level a mess. But Sam can’t be so “okay” that nothing gets to him, that he meets God and is like, “Ohmigod tell me about Earlobes and Teh Planetzzzzzzz” – what a disgrace.
// one of the big problems True Blood ran into was trying to marry a civic argument about queer/marginalised rights to a story about actual murdering monsters //
On a truly lesser level – that was one of the things that annoyed me about the Leviathan season, which seemed somewhat interested in discussing America’s obesity problem. Which, come on, stop it.
// between Sam and Dean’s heterogeneity, mixed-bloodedness, mongrelness and the very Ordered Men of Letters has always been the thing that excited me most //
Interesting, yes – and is it just me or was there a missed beat in there when Mary said the Men of Letters was a myth – shouldn’t Dean have said: “Mom, we’re legacies. The Winchesters were Men of Letters. So both sides of the family are represented.” ?? Did anyone else feel that?
shouldn’t Dean have said: “Mom, we’re legacies.”…Plus missing the essential moment where Dean informs Mary that John’s dad was a Men of Letters. I don’t know … did I miss something?
I think there is a bunch of that stuff missing. To make room for the B/C plots and to not have a chatfest like Shurley last season. Not that I wouldn’t LOVE that. These conversations — telling people about a third party — they’re so revealing. Dean telling Mary that Sam went to Stanford! That was huge!
On the other hand, why not just sit Mary down with Chuck’s books?
I have really loved this new sense of completed confidence/competence from Sam – really, post Season 9 –but it can’t be so complete that he basically forgets the rest of his whole life. It just doesn’t make sense AND it also deprives JP of access to Sam’s darkness/trauma/memories. That’s the major crime.
I couldn’t agree more.The more crap they pile on the guy the more insane his calmness and confidence seems! What’s going on in there?!
//On the other hand, why not just sit Mary down with Chuck’s books?//
I can think of one reason – because he’s having sex in the books, like – he’s full frontal, dude!!! No way is mom going to read that.
Thank god Mary can’t call the internet to ask about the unpublished books either.
I loved Dean’s “So close!”
Thank god Mary can’t call the internet to ask about the unpublished books either.
Yes, I can just imagine what some basic search terms would do to the poor lady. Point well taken, friends.
//The more crap they pile on the guy the more insane his calmness and confidence seems! What’s going on in there?!//
Jessie- that last moment of 11×09 comes to mind- Sam stuck in the cage with Lucifer. I mean, the horror on his face, the crying, etc. It felt like the acknowledgement of something enormous to me- the beginning of them not necessarily ‘dealing’ with it, but examining it, or whatever. And then of course the ball was appallingly dropped there.
I don’t want to be too optimistic, but maybe they’re trying to go back to that??
// It felt like the acknowledgement of something enormous to me- the beginning of them not necessarily ‘dealing’ with it, but examining it, or whatever. And then of course the ball was appallingly dropped there.
I don’t want to be too optimistic, but maybe they’re trying to go back to that??
//
I’m really hoping this is true.
// Dean just…toodles off to the bunker while Cas walks around Indiana or whatever? Sam, after a few days or whatever of quality hallucinating is just like o hai dead bro and ma, this must be real? //
Dean, Cas and Mary stopping for coffee at some farm stand while Sam has been abducted by Miss Lady-Pants Herself … and may be dead … was particularly silly.
Come on, guys. That’s such a rookie thing to do. There’s no way that Dean would STOP doing ANYthing if he thought Sam was in serious trouble.
and yeah: when Dean said the word “technique” and then rattled off an explanation that the technique wouldn’t work if she was unconscious …
Rookie again.
Plus missing the essential moment where Dean informs Mary that John’s dad was a Men of Letters. I don’t know … did I miss something?
I know! In episode 1 when Dean was breaking phones (and my sexuality) I felt the urgency! Despite the casual brunches. I felt like we were on a mission. I was surprised and disappointed to be back at the bunker, opening episode two. The bunker should not be a place of stagnation — or if it is, then that should be purposeful. That is why Kripke burned the Roadhouse down.
Yeah, the tension seemed to dissipate in episode two. Like……………. really? Too much standing around.
// The bunker should not be a place of stagnation — or if it is, then that should be purposeful. That is why Kripke burned the Roadhouse down. //
Very true. I wondered in Season 10 if they were going to get rid of the bunker. Especially when the Frankenstein-Brothers infiltrated and trashed it. I was geared up for The End of the Bunker.
I’m not really feeling where they’re going here – not yet. I’m pretty caught up in the emotional maelstrom of Mary’s return – like, for me, that’s the story right now. Lucifer’s return is also interesting – and I am really hoping for some excellent scenes between Sam and Lucifer – especially now that Castiel is not “playing” Lucifer. We can get a purer reaction.
But in terms of the rest of the season: Not sure.
I just re-watched Magnificent Seven – won’t get to the re-cap for Lord knows how long – and I’m not crazy about the episode but you can see them “drop” every single thing that will play out over the season.
— New demons on the loose
— Dean not caring if he lives or dies
— Ruby. The demon knife.
— Sam wanting to save his brother.
These are the things that will play out over Season 3.
Not getting that sense yet here. The Men of Letters feel like they might stick around for – maybe 5 more episodes? 6? It doesn’t feel like this will be a season-long Arc. Not sure how other people feel about that.
//the conflict between Sam and Dean’s heterogeneity, mixed-bloodedness, mongrelness and the very Ordered Men of Letters has always been the thing that excited me most about the introduciton of this whole mythology// I think this is why their orderliness doesn’t bother me, not like the angels and demons and their corporate culture. It is a direct contrast to Sam and Dean’s world, and seems to be a thin veil over what they view as reality (hello, Crowley’s been sneaking in and out for years). It’s so apparently faulty and condescending that its collapse seems eminent, part of the evolving storyline. I’m interested to see where they go with it.
// It’s so apparently faulty and condescending that its collapse seems eminent, part of the evolving storyline. //
Interesting. You could see that knowledge dawning on her face, as she looked at the hunter who would not break no matter what torture she inflicted. That “her ways” maybe were not as effective as she thought. Also there’s the fact that she – for whatever reason – it seems personal – “went rogue” … That somehow she was helpless in the face of whatever had been going on in the States. That orderliness doesn’t ALWAYS work – which, yeah, is one of those constant SPN themes and conflicts.
oh, I really like your thinking! I’ve really resented her know-it-all attitude and the picture she painted of English MOL but for some reason it never occurred to me she might be an unreliable narrator!
So I watched the episode again last night. There are some interesting things I didn’t really pick up on my first viewing and it mainly has to do with Mary dealing with Dean.
This is granting the fact that
1. We assume Mary is actually Mary. It’s not that I have my doubts, but I almost don’t trust it yet. It’s wonderfully unbalancing.
2. If Mary really is Mary – then her disorientation must be extreme. Picking up where you left off -only the 4 year old and the baby now tower over you. What on earth would the “normal” reaction be to such a situation.
And so Mary is staying – somewhat – on the surface of things. Which, again, makes sense. None of this is a “criticism” – that’s not how I react to story (unless the story doesnt work. But criticizing behavior … not my thing.)
For example: when Dean says “Mom, I’m thrilled you’re back. I’m so excited I can’t stand it.” There is so CLEARLY a “But” that is coming. Every fiber of his being screams “But …” She doesn’t wait for him to finish his thought – and comes in saying that there’s just a lot she has to catch up on. Which clearly is true. And she is trying to assuage his worries because she clearly can see he looks a little worried.
BUT she doesn’t let him finish his thought. She assumes she knows what he’s going to say. And – in that gentle invisible way that can happen with parents – she silences him. It happened throughout the episode.
This isn’t malevolent on her part – this is her showing her son she is not incompetent, she was a good hunter, he doesn’t need to worry about her.
But – as we saw in Dean’s “Heaven,” it was set up early that Dean was a care-taker – he felt responsible for his mother being sad and tried to help her. When she should have been reassuring him that everything was going to be okay. These are the sneaky ways that parents fuck up their children. Maybe not forever – but in Dean’s case: that care-taking thing, the role he felt obliged to take on – EARLY – has impacted his life immeasurably. And being a care-taker means you ignore your own needs. AND – what I was sensing in the episode: the person you’re taking care of forgets that you have needs, that you may have something to say, that you have a RIGHT to say anything – about yourself.
I mean, at my day-job – there’s a support group for care-takers, those responsible for taking care of an ill parent or ill spouse/child. That’s how depleting such a role can be – and the expectation that being “selfless” is easy, and even possible – is damaging. And we’ve seen that with Dean too.
So here Mary is sitting with her now adult son – and he starts to say something that might reveal a little bit of who he is, his feelings – and she finishes his sentence. She doesn’t say, “Wait, now tell me what you were going to say, sorry for interrupting.”
So once again: Dean doesn’t get to have feelings. Dean doesn’t get to even SAY that he has feelings.
Even his worry about his mother coming along … She was not “reading between the line” – I think that was one of the most interesting things about what she the actress was doing with the role: a lack of reading between the lines. It was written that way too. And trauma/disorientation often results in people being unable to even perceive subtlety or subtext. That’s the whole thing.
But the look on her face when Sam teared up – how surprised she was, almost in awe at the strength of his feelings … it was as though she had not yet considered what her absence meant to these men, her children. She kept saying she wanted to catch up – but the things she wanted to catch up on (“first tooth, first crush”) won’t even BEGIN to even START to cover what the hell their lives have been like, the sheer shit-show of it.
And you could see that in JP’s reaction. Like, “I don’t even know how to begin to tell you anything …”
The other thing was Mary saying “John was a great father.” Dean has always been the one to stick up for John, right? But here Mary is saying it – and you could see him totally shut down. Dean is not allowed to be ambivalent. Dean is not allowed to have negative feelings. (Which is humorous seeing as he is the most ambivalent person who has ever walked the earth, probably.)
So Mary makes a declaration like that – as opposed to saying, “So what was your life like after I died?” Dean basically has to tell her “Your death CHANGED Dad.” And even there, she didn’t follow up. (Like mother, like son. I don’t know – there was something really interesting in their scenes together: how they kept silencing one another. Not through being angry or saying “Stop it, it wasn’t like that” – but … just from speaking their own truth, as they knew it – the other one would find themselves with nothing to say.)
And so of course Dean would retreat to his photographs. At least in his memory he is able to hug his mother and snuggle her and be close to her and be tucked in by her. At least there he is safe.
This relationship is no longer safe. And he is not allowed to speak his own truth, to speak out what his life has been like, and what his childhood was like. So far, there’s been no space for that kind of “catching up.”
Granted: they’ve all been very BUSY.
But still.
I think these are all very fascinating and interesting elements of what’s going on here. The first time watching I was scanning the faces of Dean and Sam during their scenes with their mother – but the second time watching I was watching HER.
I hope it continues with this level of complexity. I’m very into it.
Would love to hear other people’s reactions.
Oh YES, you expanded on what I was trying to say earlier – that’s it, exactly. They’re all stuck in their private versions of it, and Dean, because of his role in the family, has no place to express any of it. The building up is REALLY fascinating. I’m loving what they all do there.
Yeah, me too.
I keep remembering that line from Dream a Little Dream: “But Sam? Sam he doted on.”
This has nothing to do with love. There is no doubt that John loved Dean and that Mary did too. But Dean somehow got lost in the shuffle – or taken for granted – Maybe because he was the oldest, and because he was so clearly an empathetic and sensitive child – they assumed he could “handle more.” People who understand parentification – Natalie? haha – could probably expand.
And once Mary died – John saw Dean’s sweetness as a detriment and set about crushing it. So his sensitivity was forced to go into hiding – and yet his caretaking impulses were still active – in regards to Dad, to Sam, the family business.
Where on earth in all of this is Dean allowed to have any feelings – positive OR negative?
No wonder he snuck out to CBGB’s and whooped it up with strangers who didn’t give him shit – or even, actually, really care about him. What a relief to be with people who don’t give a shit.
No wonder he keeps secrets – even from himself.
He was not allowed to admit he had negative feelings about his Dad. Or even ambivalent feelings. Dean is not allowed ambivalence. Therefore: he has turned out to be the most ambivalent man alive.
Jason Beghe – who busted out of Scientology with much fanfare – and then gave a 2-hour interview about it right after he got out – said that the “con” of the cult was so good, so airtight – that the people who got trapped eventually were involved in imprisoning themselves, in conning themselves. So it’s not an outside force keeping you trapped: you invest in that trap, and man the borders of that trap – because those are the rules that were set for you, rules you buy into.
So yeah: Mary then shows up – and how is he suddenly supposed to be all weepy and “I missed you Mom”? Those days are long over. The djinn fantasy – that was 9 years ago, 10 years ago.
and now: Sam is here, and Sam is – as always – more openly open – if that makes sense – and so somehow that cramps Dean into a small space where he isn’t allowed to feel anything – or to be that open – like Jason Beghe said: he is now patrolling his own trap. And maybe he thought he had gotten past it. Maybe he was now comfortable with his relationship to his dead Mother.
and now …
It’s actually kind of devastating.
and super-smart storytelling in terms of the psychology.
Also, I’d add – or maybe I’m just reiterating – because of what you’d describe above, the ‘not being allowed’, the lack of emotional space, the caretaking, the not-being-four any more, Mom being a person now, not an ideal, I’d hazard that it’s like losing mom all over again, no? Not just losing that mom, but possibly in the process, reexperiencing every moment of missing her for the past 34 years, but now those feelings are under question, because, technically, he should be happy that she’s back.
Families. Are. So. Complicated.
// I’d hazard that it’s like losing mom all over again, no? //
I think that’s right.
// technically, he should be happy that she’s back. //
And I think that might be the key of what is disturbing him right now. He’s second-guessing his reactions. It doesn’t seem “right.” He should be happy … what is wrong with him … something is wrong with him … (internal monologue.)
Also watching how easily Sam shows his amazement at his mother – making tea for her … He feels left out. He can’t be that open.
I absolutely LOVED LOVED the expression on Dean’s face over her shoulder when she hugged him in the first episode.
It’s not relief. It’s not clutching her to him – like he did in Season 2. He doesn’t cry. He looks stunned … and worried and lost.
Very complex.
I can’t wait, actually, to see where this particular element goes.
//I can’t wait, actually, to see where this particular element goes.//
Me too.
And I really hope – and forgive me for putting it so bluntly, Sheila’s mum – I really hope they do not fuck this up.
Ha. I think my mother has long given up reading this site, so we’re safe.
I hope they don’t fuck it up too.
My trust was battered at the end of Season 12. They need to earn it back!!
//Ha. I think my mother has long given up reading this site, so we’re safe.//
Phew. I mean, I can swear with a clear conscience now. Thank fuck for that.
To quote Dean to Melanie when she says she need a drink: “I support that.”
Paula:
//Thank god Mary can’t call the internet to ask about the unpublished books either.//
Ha ha ha!
Completely different topic than what we’re currently talking about up thread. This “call the internet” is just a joke, but I find it interesting. Mary has to catch up with what the fuck happened with her family, but on a surface level, she has to catch up with history, technology, etc. I am Sam’s age, and I find it interesting to have to consider what my life span represents for someone who has missed it entirely. CDs! The internet! micro-waves! Grunge music! etc…
Gen-X is the last generation to grow up without technology, the Internet … the revolution has been so completely total that I think we haven’t even begun to understand the ramifications!
I loved her looking around at everyone on their phones at the farm stand. To me, that was the real point of the scene – since you think they’d show more urgency if Sam was in trouble.
Right. They needed that scene of her soaking it in. Still that coffee stop made me nuts because it’s only a few hours drive from Kansas to Missouri. I could drive it myself without a bathroom break, but Dean on a rage-filled mission needs to have a sit-down at the picnic tables? Pfft. The writers could have at least picked a different location.
That thread above in re: consent, sex, Tumblr, Sam’s hairy chest, bodies, repression is getting way unwieldy, if anyone wants to continue down here.
I think it says Good Things re: s12 that this one ep has provoked so much talk.
Me too!!
re: people’s lid-flipping; to be fair to them, a lot of it is deep mistrust of the creatives’ capacity to understand what they’ve portrayed and their ability to deal with its ramifications, coming from extra-textual stuff like Dabb tweets, as well as show history like last year’s Lucifer fuckup and “Season 7, Time For A Wedding,” which was a Dabb co-write, had a similar assault on Sam, and had a really offputting “hey, that Becky’s okay” resolution.
I don’t have the same level of mistrust but I do definitely have a feeling of like…you guys better get this one right this time, buddy. I’m in agreement with you guys on the value of compartmentalising and moving on and that looking to an episode of SPN for a soothing hurt/comfort balm will only breed disappointment.
On the other hand, at this point, I feel like the show’s gotta recognise that compartmentalisation and repression of this particular repeating vein of trauma (nonconsensual sex, unreality) is in itself character action to be acknowledged.
Like to switch streams over to Dean’s coping mechanisms that you raised above, the Mark of Cain storyline was IMO like thirty episodes whose engine was implicitly or explicitly Dean’s repressed/compartmentalised/PTSD-y feelings about his body, his identity, capital-V Violence, his usefulness and purpose. They got in there, they dug around in it. It wasn’t pretty and Dean was a shithead as often as he was a more palatable victim/survivor. But like in Season 2 this stuff underneath ran the show.
That’s really what I’m hoping for WRT Sam’s issues for this year.
Thanks for talking it out guys and thanks especially for all your great thoughts on Dean and Mary, my mind has been on the other half of the equation and you’re really bringing some cool stuff to my attention.
You all have said so much on this and said it well. Just wanted to chime in that Jessie hit the issue head on with this //the show’s gotta recognise that compartmentalisation and repression of this particular repeating vein of trauma (nonconsensual sex, unreality) is in itself character action to be acknowledged.// That’s my main issue with it – the lack of recognition of it. When scenes are deleted, it is often Sam’s expression of his issues (deleted scene from Rock And A Hard Place with Jody is a good example) and supposedly dialogue was cut from We Happy Few about proximity to Lucifer due to time constraints. As you all said, it was done at the expense of B/C plots. I’m optimistic something will be said this week.
Yeah, it’s so ridiculous that dialogue would be cut about proximity to Lucifer when seriously: why else do they think we’re all watching? They can’t believe we don’t remember? Or … do they actually not understand what they have created? That’s what I felt at the end of Season 11 – and that was super depressing.
But I almost NEVER feel that way with the show.
You know? It’s NOTICEABLE when they screw up to that degree and it hasn’t happened all that much.
I chalk it up to an anomaly and panic in the writer’s room due to staff changes, etc.
But still: yes. The ship needs to be righted, especially in terms of Sam.
I still maintain my own feelings about that opening sex scene though. I thought it was fine – and queasy and disturbing in just the way that Dabb meant. Of course it looked romantic. The fact that it looked romantic is WHY it was so queasy and gross.
and as I said earlier – attraction doesn’t occur on the level of the Rational. Often it makes no sense. And Sam has slept with the enemy before. Willingly.
That’s not the case here. But again, a fantasy/hallucination imposed on him by a British broad in tight pants is not on the level of the Rational. Of course it’s going to be all messed up, and Sam’s REACTIONS to it are going to be messed up as well. He’s into it! Oh no he’s not. He’s relaxed! Oh shit, is this real? It’s horrible.
Honestly, I don’t see the problem with the scene.
It was sexy and gross. Simultaneously. :)
Jessie –
// a lot of it is deep mistrust of the creatives’ capacity to understand what they’ve portrayed and their ability to deal with its ramifications, //
I definitely can see that and thanks for providing perspective, since much of this just gets to me through osmosis or “through the grapevine” kind of thing.
When the show goes off the rails, too, it REALLY goes off the rails. The last 3 episodes of last season – Sam in particular. And then the random horrible choices – Like Best Friend with Benefits: totally clueless as to the ramifications of what they were doing. I HAVE to believe it was clueless, otherwise I’d stop watching the show!
The whole “Becky marriage” thing seemed like a pretty vicious dig at the fan-base too – especially since she DID start out as harmless, and then moved to creepy Rupert Pupkin territory. I don’t know, maybe there was some buried resentment at the fans going in in the writing – or maybe not so buried. It seemed pretty blatant to me.
// I feel like the show’s gotta recognise that compartmentalisation and repression of this particular repeating vein of trauma (nonconsensual sex, unreality) is in itself character action to be acknowledged. //
I absolutely agree with this.
That repression IS the story. It IS the characters. Some of the best moments in the show has been when that subtext – or undercurrent – or reality – has been DEALT with, acknowledged, wrestled with. I’m starting to re-watch Season 3 – for whenever I get to those re-caps – and Dean’s half-season-long burlesque where he pretends he doesnt care he’s dying – is a great example. They really dug into that. They examined it from all levels. It was so frustrating – for Sam, for me – because you just wanted Dean to ADMIT what was REALLY happening – but the show acknowledged that that’s not who these guys are – or, at least, they fight tooth and claw to deal with stuff in that open way.
And it made for some really great drama and tension.
There are so many other examples!
Season 9 – I mean, that’s really what that whole season was about.
It’s interesting, though, that these are all Dean-focused Arcs. With Sam being the competent “let’s deal with this” person and Dean being the repressed mess. It’s been a while since Sam fell apart – and honestly, I’ve missed it. I didn’t realize I missed it until I watched how Season 11 was going and everyone on staff seemed to FORGET that Sam had been raped by Lucifer, was so tormented by his memories that he went to a loony bin – that this guy had been traumatized to a degree that he almost didn’t return.
It was like it had never happened and yes, that is unforgivable.
Having him flashback to all of his scenes of trauma and letting others down – a hopeful sign, yes, in terms of righting the train that went off the rails last season?
Do not shortchange Sam, writers. Do not do it.
// But like in Season 2 this stuff underneath ran the show.
That’s really what I’m hoping for WRT Sam’s issues for this year. //
YES.
I totally agree.
//She tells people she was raped and they immediately start treating her as though she is broken forever and she is having NONE of it.//
Isabelle Hupert + this? I do want to see it!
//At NO point, will I look at that footage and feel “okay” or un-traumatized. It’s done. and I’m not OKAY with it but I have dealt with it the way I can and the way I feel I had to.//
I hear you.
//I am not anti-therapy. But a lot of this talk-therapy stuff has not been peer-reviewed, and it’s a bazillion dollar business so there is so much resistance to actually looking at it.//
I am not anti-therapy either. I am against that belief that therapy is the only way to deal, though. Therapy is a set of tools – one where it can be very hard to find the tool that will work for you, and where using other tools can do more harm than good.
And I am also deeply annoyed by the belief that healing perfectly is what to strive for, because if you fail to achieve that, you’re left with a sense of failure, and how does that help? Finding a way fo function, which is your own, is already pretty good if you ask me.
Lyrie – Elle is, admittedly, totally nuts. It’s very very funny. And it starts with a totally un-funny rape. Rape is not made fun of. But Huppert is so … nuts … and so competent and like: “Okay, so that happened, now let me order some takeout sushi …” It takes her a while to absorb the impact of what just went down – which is, of course, how it normally goes.
anyway, I won’t say anymore!
// And I am also deeply annoyed by the belief that healing perfectly is what to strive for, because if you fail to achieve that, you’re left with a sense of failure, and how does that help? //
This is my beef with it. Also there’s an assumption that you will reach a perfect state where things won’t bother you anymore. Or that such a state is possible.
It is definitely possible to work with your own brain to try to process bad thoughts better. But to assume that one Magical Day you will never have to do that …
I don’t know. I believe in progress and being able to learn better to deal with stress. But I will never not be ME, if you know what I mean.
Sam and Dean are both almost 40. Or at least – middle-aged. They are who they are. I like that they’re not static characters – but they’re these guys, not other guys.
I am thinking now of that great episode (or at least I thought it was great) where Sam and Dean get locked up in the mental asylum. I am horrible with titles.
The way Dean “took” to therapy – he really did! He softened up to it immediately even though he rolled his eyes at it – and then immediately following felt wrecked and raped … Ha! He SAYS it. If he lived in that space of processing his feelings, he’d never make it as a hunter.
Yeah, in Sam, Interrupted, isn’t it?
It’s the one with the hunter who went insane. Is that Sam Interrupted? And the pretty psychiatrist. “Pudding!” etc.
“I’ve been THRAPED.”
Also, the pretty therapist was only in his head, revealed later when the orderly asks who he’s talking to/about. I totally missed that on the first watch.
Yeah, I know she wasn’t real but that just makes it even more interesting. That she would appear, that Dean’s brain would toss THAT up. And that she would be pretty and that she would get him to talk to the degree that he did.
Agreed. Like he’s so conditioned to pushing down his thoughts and feelings that he actually needs to imagine a (beautiful female) therapist just to work it out in his own head.
//Sam and Dean are both almost 40.//
Hey, calm down, Sam is 33! He can go back to college. He wouldn’t be too old. At all. It wouldn’t be weird for him to be in class with people who don’t know what a Discman is. At all. #denial
What is it with the number 33? I hate to keep harping on Jesus, but I feel I must.
and okay, I’ll calm down. It’s hard!
Member when, randomly, Sam was Googling going back to school? Back when Dean was drinking and all PTSD-y? Member those good old days?
//Member when, randomly, Sam was Googling going back to school?//
He’s way down the rabbit hole now. You can’t IMAGINE him doing that these days.
Right. I wonder if/how that would come up if he was in a jinn-induced fantasy, now.
It’s interesting too – so far – how much we’re walking down Memory Lane: references to John. Sam seeing Jess.
And Stanford this, Stanford that. How long has it been since we’ve talked about Stanford??
These are the things we’ve been talking about above – one of the reasons I liked these two episodes was its devotion to Sam and Sam’s life experience: the trauma that has made him who he is, with the coping skills, and the unresolved shit that that implies.
What regrets does he have? He has a stronger “road not taken” than Dean does. Will that come up? Especially since Mary seems shocked that Sam would have ever come back.
I hope that all of these things are explored.
We need them after the debacle of Season 11’s end.
and now that we don’t have a Big Bad – not yet – it’s the perfect time to focus on these characters, take a look at where they are, and how they feel about it. Especially Sam.
//What regrets does he have?//
Nobody is asking Mary about what it feels like to leave heaven and land back in this pile-o-poo. Real people who have had near death/heaven experiences have expressed a deep sense of loss. Would Mary be angry or resentful for being snatched away? Maybe Dean won’t ask because he feels guilty about it anyway, but I feel like Sam definitely would. I have an idea it will eventually work in to her departure whatever that is.
//I guess I didn’t even realize that Sam had hair on his chest. Is this new? Did I hallucinate it? I seem to recall a hairless centaur from seasons past.
It IS new!
//and last I remember Dean was hairless too.//
Wait, why are you saying that? He’s not anymore? What did I miss?
hahaha No you didn’t miss anything. I feel like my entire world-view would collapse if Dean suddenly had hair on my chest – and I can’t believe that I am actually allowing that thought to take up any brainspace whatsoever.
//if Dean suddenly had hair on my chest//
Ha ha ha ha! On your chest? That would be new, for sure.
hahahahahaha oops
Best mistake ever.
Yes, my world-view would collapse if I woke up with Dean’s hair on my chest.
//I can’t believe that I am actually allowing that thought to take up any brainspace whatsoever//
You were were just confusing your upstairs brain and your downstairs brain. No worries.
Honestly at this point I don’t know if there’s a difference.
//When did Sam have a cut on his palm?//
12×01- he sliced his palm, made it look like it was his neck, apparently to get rid of the hallucinations. Tying in to his cutting the same palm at the start of season seven and pressing on it to banish Hallucifer all season.
Good stuff.
Wow, you’re amazing. Thank you.
I store trivia where I should be keeping basic division skills. ;)
That’s what the calculator app on your phone is for. We desperately need your trivia storage capacity for those of us who, well, are low on RAM to put it kindly!
https://youtu.be/Z884i1neMcM Ok, after seeing the first two episodes a few times and reading these comments I had to review the scene where Amara ‘gives Dean what he needs’. Look at her face in this scene. It isn’t serene or particularly pleasant, almost scary in it’s calm judgement. So. Amara was God’s sister and therefore presumably omniscient, too? So what did she *see* about Dean and Dean’s life, his future, that made bringing back his dead mother what he *needs*? Not necessarily what he wants, what he needs. And now we see in Season 12 that Mom is breaking apart his memories and forcing Dean to re-evaluate his life in private, painful drunken moments? Does Dean need to be freed from his past? Or will his Mom free both boys from what’s coming at them from MOL: Europe? Man doesn’t this leave Season 12 wide open.
Sorry, that link is where I ended, not where the scene began. Thinking more about Amara’s journey through Season 11: painful literal growth from infant to adult, painful rage against her life & brother, moving gradually toward understanding and the beginning of a potential reconciliation to what her life is now. Is she giving that to Dean?