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No deep insights here, just a couple comments: I liked the grief counselor, though the drama between her and her ex didn’t have a chance to be developed enough to be that compelling. I loved when she held out her arms and challenged him to shoot.
When Sam poured out his thoughts at the grief counselor’s house, there was a point where his voice shook that I found so moving. And I was intrigued that when he said that Dean had a relationship with her, I thought he was referring to Dean having had four years as a child when he only had six months which he doesn’t remember. But instead he referenced the last year they’d had with her. Mary was so coldly distant with them, she rarely connected with them, and, when she did, it WAS more with Dean. It was frustrating to watch, and I’m glad that Sam brought it up. Whether anything will come of it, we’ll see.
I did notice that it was very bright. It was weird to have violence in such a lovely, sunny space instead of dark and shadowy. Maybe it was meant to contrast with the utter blackness around Cas?
As far as what Sam took out of that bathtub — ew!!! It made me want to stop gnoshing on the Halloween candy I was enjoying.
I felt so bad for Sam when he expressed doubt at the end and appreciated their conversation. Dean said he doesn’t believe in anything, but it’s a given that he still believes in Sam because he needs him to keep believing for both of them.
it was so bright, right?! I agree that it’s meant to contrast with the Empty, and also be an environment in which a few secrets/deep down thoughts get exposed. But those daytime scenes outside and in the therapist’s office nearly blew my eyeballs out!
Aslan – good thoughts!
As gross as the bathtub moment was – I was glad to see that they “went back” to the gross-ness and sliminess of shape-shifting – as opposed to having it be this clean process. (Although when SHE shifted into Jack’s mother – she did so with zero slimy skin.)
But yeah, it was so gross.
The ongoing argument between Sam and Dean about Dean’s mis-treatment of Jack was nice – when Dean sent him to get food? Like an “intern”? Very funny. and so it was a nice dovetail when Jack shazammed the shifters, and saved Dean, etc.
It would have been nice to see more development of the abusive relationship between the counselor and her ex – it would have been a connective layer with the Sam and Dean’s relationship – or the brothers’ relationship with Mary – or with John – take your pick. Go more explicit with it – this is what was missing last season.
There are some interesting developments in Sam and Dean’s dynamic – I just finished re-watching Season 5, which is all about Dean breaking down, getting tired, fed up – and Sam trying to hold onto the faith, trying to keep his brother engaged, not give up … so I’m feeling some of that. I hope they keep pushing that envelope.
a lot of great conversatin’ in this one! It’s like it cares again!
as well as those logical, emotional, and occasionally cutting conversations some things I’m really enjoying:
This alternative framing of Sam’s desire to have Jack around so that he can use him.
Calvert’s got an interesting face and I like the way he uses it, and his voice.
All this worry and concern.
CLOSE UPS!
Dean on the constant verge of a freak-out.
Sam and Dean talking about/explaining each other to someone else is my jam.
It was a big leap, what Collins was doing, but I liked a lot of it after the first few exchanges. The execution of the Empty is quite interesting and between that and the alt-verse there’s a lot of potential for recurring characters.
Thinking about Adam and laughing.
// Dean on the constant verge of a freak-out. //
after a season of Words with Friends and Snapchat – culminating in a tear-drenched phony scene with Mary “I hate you but I love you” (ACK) – I cannot tell you how relieved I feel seeing Dean on the verge of flipping OUT. (Just re-watched “Jump the Shark” which is the High Watermark of this particular vibe in Dean … always happy when he gets to “go there” – it’s been way too long)
// Sam and Dean talking about/explaining each other to someone else is my jam. //
hahahaha This is such a great way of putting it!
In re: Misha Collins – I loved the bold-ness of the choice. It didn’t always work for me – but sometimes bold choices are like that. Hit or miss initially. I like that he was going for it – he’s so talented.
It was very Malcolm McDowell-y. I was wondering if Clockwork Orange was an inspiration for his voice, the accent, the line-readings, the kind of gleeful psychopathy in the whole thing.
// Thinking about Adam and laughing. //
hahahahaha
My favorite Adam reference to date is from the gorgeous little stage manager during the production of the musical. “That’s Adam. He’s still in the cage. In Hell.” A brief look of “Oh shit” on Dean’s face but then he’s back to jamming out to the song where his mother burns to a crisp.
I love this show.
Sam getting upset was volcanic! Death and Good Riddance to Lilac-scented peacekeeping Sam!
I loved Dean turning a bit of a corner with Jack at the end (“Dean respects effort” – well, Dean respects results). I thought he was opening a beer to share with Jack – which would have been awesome.
This was a Very Good Episode, not just a “thank god it didn’t suck like season 12” good.
I wonder if Death is in the void like Cas was. I wonder if a wakened and cranky Void might stir other sleeping things to wakefulness.
Sam’s “I’m using you And I care about you” speech to Jack was also excellent. Relationships on Earth: 101.
oh man, I really hope that Death is in there! I feel kinda silly buying the line all along that there was a true, permanent death for angels and demons (and gods and Horsemen, etc) and that they didn’t have yet another place to be put on ice. I wonder if Crowley ever knew about it? Will he be there? Or is he in the alt-world empty? This is getting too big for my brain.
I yearn for Death.
I miss the guy too. He was funny.
The whole multi-verse thing…
So there’s a Vegan Barista Dean somewhere who only wears kilts and listens to The Indigo Girls and smokes clove cigarettes and says “literally” every third word and drives a Prius.
Mommy, make the bad thoughts go away.
um, yeah
My eyes!
Is there one with Dean as a samurai, eating a bacon cheeseburger, riding a utahraptor?
um, yeah
Oh my gosh Jessie the sideburns !!! … I need to re-watch that silly thing. I do enjoy the scene where he buys tampons. And I feel protective of Danneel because she has to get naked and it seems completely gratuitous.
Jessie, you’re a genie. I should have known!
I need to be really careful with my third wish…
I know! TALKING. Who knew it could be so dramatic? (Uhm … all of us. Glad they’re catching up.)
I loved the sign “respect our privacy” and Sam just going over it. I snorted “right, like those guys even UNDERSTAND that concept”.
that was a classic! Also the fifteen levels of dismissiveness in:
“Hmm. That’s a cool story.” PTTHTHSPIT “So, let’s say…”
“That’s a cool story.” HA!!!
I realize that last season beat me down and so I am dangerously easy to please right now … but it’s so good that the show is FUNNY again.
Maybe not French Mistake funny – but still.
not every mistake can be a French mistake!
I loved last night’s episode. Sam finally blowing up was such a relief! Finally, finally…a season later but still finally….they are exploring the ramifications of what Mary coming back did to these guys!
Every second that Jack is on my screen, I like him more and more. I really liked the whole scene between him and “Kelly” Alexander Calvert is doing a fantastic job with this role. He’s got me caring about a character that I really wasn’t expecting to like very much. I despised the whole LOTUS storyline last season and I wasn’t very fond of Kelly. At the beginning of the season I was looking forward to the AU storyline more than Jack, but as of right now I’m really enjoying what they are doing with Jack and most especially how Sam and Dean are interacting with him and vice versa. Everybody seems to be interacting again….isn’t it wonderful??!!
It is so wonderful!!
// they are exploring the ramifications of what Mary coming back did to these guys! //
I know! Finally!! Last week’s episode so clearly SHOULD have been part of last season – that’s what the whole season should have been – but I am very heartened to feel that someone over there has realized the strengths of the show, and what has been missing. What I wouldn’t give to be a fly on the wall.
// At the beginning of the season I was looking forward to the AU storyline more than Jack, but as of right now I’m really enjoying what they are doing with Jack and most especially how Sam and Dean are interacting with him and vice versa. //
Yes, I am really happy with where they’re choosing to go – at least in the arena of Jack. I was bored by Jack the second he arrived in the last episode last season – but Calvert is very VERY good. Not only that, but they’re using him as a way to explore Sam and Dean’s relationship – and also, he’s doing a wonderful job being a confused “kid”. I really like it!
Another episode which is interested and invested in the characters. Huzzah!
This episode actually made me laugh out loud a few times – the multiple layers JA brought to the task of Being An Utter Dick were A+
Sam’s outburst: – both completely on the nose and utterly unexpected. GOOD JOB, SPN and a thumbsup.gif from me
I was moved by the scene with the therapist/Mom and Jack – which surprised me as I had zero knowledge/investment in his backstory. But the sorrow and the kindness in that scene were palpable.
I am warming very quickly to the actor playing Jack – some great moments.
The scenes in the Empty absolutely crackled with … some unnameable something. Which is good. They never named what the Other Castiel was. And I approve of that.
Generally, yay!
Oh, there’s a wierd html glitch in that last post I can’t fix – rats. Move along, folks, nothing to see here.
I looked at the HTML and there was some gibberish in there so I took it out – if you were trying to link to something it wasn’t there.
Gibberish just about covers it ;-)
I echo your Yay!
and – selfishly – seriously, it’s so selfish – I’m just so glad to be talking with you fine people again about this show – without bemoaning its current state!!
// Sam’s outburst: – both completely on the nose and utterly unexpected. //
It was thrilling.
I’m very taken with JP. How old is he now? 36, 37? Whatever the case may be … I said this in another thread: and I’m projecting a little bit because of what I know about him (usually a no-no in my book) … but even if I DIDN’T know his struggles with depression – I would say that he exudes a certain kind of weight, his face is so thoughtful – and sad – without him “acting” sad” – if that makes sense … it’s always been an interesting element that JP brings to the character – who is not written that way in the pilot. :) But it’s even more noticeable now – because he’s getting older. It’s just a part of who he is and part of what he brings to the table.
ALSO – and I’ll get over it someday but not yet – the show is finally honoring the character of Sam, and giving him SHIT TO DO. Sam was the biggest casualty, IMO, of the debacle of the last year. (“Why are planets round.” etc.) There’s something wild and spontaneous about JA that somehow survived better – even though he wasn’t given jack-squat to do. Dean persisted. Sam somehow was buried. and JP was forced to play “concerned and caring and forgiving” for an entire season.
But he brings so much else to the table – and his barely controlled sense of sadness – how easily he taps into it and the rage that follows – the anger at BEING so sad … it’s just so good. I love him.
// The scenes in the Empty absolutely crackled with … some unnameable something. Which is good. They never named what the Other Castiel was. And I approve of that. //
Yeah, I thought that was great – AND a good re-introduction of a character whom I have found tiresome for 4 years now.
Putting Castiel in a strange environment – having Castiel fight with a Malcolm McDowell version of himself – surrounded by total blackness – is so preferable to having him re-appear on earth, with a bloody nose, and finding his way to the Winchesters again. Castiel, too, has been a casualty of the series – not by dying, but in sacrificing his character.
This is even more clear to me now because of my current re-watch of Season 4 and 5, where I am so in love with Castiel. It’s not that I disagree with charater development – of course the characters will develop – but they can’t VANISH entirely. That’s what happened with Castiel and that’s what happened with Sam.
so it’s nice to see a “strange” Castiel back – in a completely context-less place.
I’m very interested to see where this goes.
Less interested in Mary and Lucifer being Commandos in a grey-dusted alternate universe, but there’s always one plot that I don’t care about. I can deal with it if there’s enough ELSE going on.
Very happy right now. I’ve missed this damn show.
everything you say about JP and Sam here just kills me and — I’m not sure how to express this without sounding tremendously crass — but every now and again I’ll catch a picture of S1/2 Sam laughing or yelling and I’ll be hit with a great feeling of wow, this kid (Sam) grew up and went through some terrible shit. So this quality in JP of suffused melancholy and the way that shifts into thought or anger or amusement or fondness or exasperation as the case may be — well, you say it perfectly, I am very taken by it.
I know what you mean. It really is amazing … he was a KID when he got this role. and yeah: this is just my sense – but I get the sense that he is at the mercy of his emotions a lot of the time. (JA doesn’t give off that vibe. DEAN does, but JA doesn’t – more evidence of his brilliance.) Like, there’s something slightly out of control in JP – and he’s paid a high price. You can SEE it.
again, it’s kind of a no-no for me to bring in stuff I know personally – I don’t like to do it because sometimes it feels like it takes away from the talent a person has – to create anything, be anything.
Things weigh heavily on JP though – in the same way they weigh heavily on Sam. and he doesn’t fight this aspect of himself – it’s just THERE. I like your observation that that’s kind of the base-note – the “given” – and then it shifts and transforms, depending on the circumstances – into other things. But it’s all coming from that same core.
I need to go back and watch S1 and S2. It’s been a while.
(also, it’s hard to think of another “gig” JP could have gotten where he could bring all of that – ALL of him – to the table.)
//This was a Very Good Episode, not just a “thank god it didn’t suck like season 12” good.//
I’m in shock at how much I’m enjoying this season. Before last season, I was so invested in the BMoL storyline and Mary’s return. I wanted to believe it would be epic and then it wasn’t. This time, I had little interest in Jack going in and a meh reaction to the alt-world. And here we are. Jack is compelling as a character and Sam and Dean are fleshed out in their awful grief. Honestly, I have no clue where this season is going and I find it— refreshing?
//volcanic// It was so satisfying to hear Sam go off like that. That crack in his voice at the end of the rant was perfect.
Was talking to some friends about how much I enjoyed 13.03 and 13.04 back to back. Berens and Glynn have completely different writing styles but I enjoy both so much. Bobo takes his time, which creates these emotionally satisfying moments, while Meredith Glynn has this snappy quick dialogue and humor (you guys said it above, that Dean’s dismissiveness was delicious). Wonder what it would be like if the two of them teamed up?
Rewatched the ep again and have to correct myself. Meredith Glynn does a great job with those emotional moments as well as Bobo. She’s a total package.
Paula, I’m with you and everyone else upthread: I’m surprised at how much I am caring for Jack. The scene with Kelly was very effective, very well done. I find myself hoping that nothing bad happens to Jack. But just like Charlie Brown, I know that football is going to be yanked away.
Thanks to Alexander Calvert and Courtney Ford and the writers for making that happen. I am hoping that they (the writers) can make me care about Cas and Mary.
// Honestly, I have no clue where this season is going and I find it— refreshing? //
I, too, love the sense of not knowing where we’re going.
I’m definitely disoriented since last season was such a none-starter – it’s like everyone was rattling around in Limbo for a year, just waiting. so it’s a weird vibe – but the energy is different, you can FEEL it – there’s more focus, more patience with individual moments, with emotions/relationships.
I like your thoughts on the individual writers!
One of my main takeaways – or the thing that struck me the most – since I went into this whole season with an eyeroll about the whole thing – is how much I am digging the handling of Jack – first of all – but – more importantly – Calvert’s ACTING. He’s very young, he’s coming into this established show, he’s working with 2 guys who are YEARS beyond him in experience – with a well-developed ESP way of working – and he’s establishing his own space, his own “thing.” (Also, I’m sure JA and JP are wonderful with him behind the scenes, making him feel at ease, etc. But still: the kid actor needs to show up ONscreen and that’s mostly on him.)
I love that they’re exploring the humorous aspect of Jack’s position – the friendly wave to the guy on the stairs (the shape-shifter on the stairs) – his desire to be helpful, his Castiel-esque cluelessness about right time/place … but also I believe his torment about his mother.
I’m very impressed. I trust my reaction on this because I was like WHATEVS WITH THE DEMON-ANGEL BABY coming into this thing and he won me over.
AND – even more promising – and this is how the show used to operate:
Whoever comes into the show has to be interesting in their own right – like Charlie was, or Ellen and Jo, or Pamela, or Garth. They need to feel real, in order to compete with the leads.
BUT – the function of whatever character it is – Charlie or Garth or whoever – is to illuminate Sam and Dean, and their issues, or conflicts, or buried subtext, or whatever. They NEED to serve a subtextual function – otherwise, we just get people entering the scene for PLOT purposes. That’s how they handled the return of Mary last season. She entered the scene MERELY as a function of the plot (unbelievable) and there was little to no exploration of what all that meant in the subterranean areas of Sam and Dean’s hearts. We’re getting some of that now – slightly too late – but I still welcome it.
anyway: what pleases me most about Jack is that his presence is being USED by the writers – by the smart actors – to connect us into Sam and Dean’s inner experiences, their relationship, their resentments, whatever.
Without that connection – I just don’t care – since the plot doesn’t matter to me. (See last season where eventually I was like, “Mary’s back. Yawn.”)
So I think that’s the thing I’m most grateful for – is how Jack is being used for these other unspoken yet still story-related functions.
Detail I really liked and this is super granular – the moment lasts 2 seconds – and I’m guessing that it was a minor “goof” but it reads so well that they kept it:
Mia is taking them into her counseling room for the first time and Dean puts his hand on Jack’s shoulder, stops him and says, “Listen, Spock, you speak when I tell you to speak. Do you understand me?”
Jack nods and says “Yes” and Dean says “Good” – at the exact same time – and moves on past Jack.
Calvert paused just a little bit before saying “Yes” – like he’s trying to take in what Dean is saying to him – and so because of that the lines overlap. It makes the moment so much funnier – and WHY it’s funny is because of Calvert’s pause and the way he says “Yes” … it’s this perfect little capsule-moment, the two of them.
Listen, it’s not easy to 1. hold the screen with JA, first of all and 2. turn a line like “Yes” into a comic moment when it really isn’t on the page.
It’s crazy how much better Jack is working I ever expected/anticipated. I was NOT in the mood for him and they’ve really won me over. Filling the relationships with stuff. Like that yes/good moment, or Jack’s “hello” on the stairs outside which comes after he considers Dean’s back a moment and clearly decides that maybe Dean will like him if he does this. Or after they enter Mia’s room the first time, Dean gets his attention and points to the doorhandle so Jack knows to close it. It’s dismissive and intern-y but also kind of…caring? Such smart blocking, acting, all silent. I’m loving it!
// Such smart blocking, acting, all silent. //
Right! Like you say – filling the relationships with STUFF.
Last season was so ARID emotionally. and JA and JP were “filling up” the relationship on their own – but they couldn’t DO it all on their own, and so we were left with this generalized macho bullshit, interspersed with un-specific exchanges. You can’t just “skate” by on the fact that these guys are hugely talented and could “fill up” a vacuum cleaner commercial with their charisma. Just because they’re inherently watchable doesn’t mean that you – the writers/directors/show-runners – are off the hook in giving them stuff to DO.
So yeah: there’s another space happening here – where behavior can operate – and we can have MOMENTS. Because we love our moments!! Moments are what it’s all about.
and yeah: color me a Dumbass for eyerolling the arrival of Jack. He’s working for me in the story side of things – but he’s also a wonderful young actor!
*spoilers for ep 5 * Just watched episode 5 and liked the old fashioned MoTW story. Plague masks freak me anyway and it was so eerie that never saw the doctor’s face. The doctor’s house/asylum was a gorgeous set with those stained glass windows (was this also the same rich person’s house from when Dean set the bait with fried pickles to have a conversation with Death? Just writing that down makes me laugh?)
Speaking of laughing, I find it crazy that Dean now carries a death kit on him, you know, just in case. Does it speak to his mental state right now and/or just something he’s packing in the duffle?
Oh Sam. Your sad little efforts to make Dean feel better. The idea of Sam accepting a Christmas lap dance from Dean and sort of rolling his eyes, talking career paths with the stripper, is hilarious.
Sorry to go back to an older thread (I should have mentioned this at the time), but I’ve been surprised by the Empty, how less horrible it was than I imagined. You see, on Supernatural, things are so often worse than I imagined. The worst for me was the thought of hell not just being eternal torment but also turning the damned into demons themselves.
So for me, when I heard the words The Empty, I imagined utter blackness (as was portrayed) or even a bland grey mist with NOTHING there at all and any souls/creatures there trapped forever in a sensory deprivation tank – no input, no sound, no light, no ANYTHING. (And I’ll freak myself out if I keep on imagining endless eons of a sentient soul wandering through endless nothingness.) So to discover that in the Empty, the beings sent there simply sleep, unaware, made it suddenly seem much less horrible. Many people long for that sort of oblivion.
“To die, to sleep–
No more–and by a sleep to say we end
The heartache, and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to. ‘Tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wished.”
It’s being AWAKE, being AWARE (even in a dream state), that scares Hamlet: the “dread of something after death.” If the Empty is nothing but peaceful sleep, why is it so scary? Why does Billie use it as a threat? Is it because perhaps only demons and angels sleep there, but a human soul would not and would be aware of its utter isolation?
Oh, my God, this episode! The family therapy session was FANTASTIC. Very real emotions in their fake session, and that shape-shifting counselor clocked ALL of it. (That said, I’m honestly not convinced of the therapeutic value of appearing to the grieving as their lost loved ones. Could potentially produce greater trauma, even if not resulting in brutal murders.)
Side note: shapeshifters and ghouls and wraiths? I’m loving the good old fashioned monsters!