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Okay, I gotta say I thought this episode was amazing! It brought to mind the darker episodes of earlier seasons that didn’t have a happily ever after resolution to things. I’ve noticed a quite a few of the scripts Davy Perez has written for Supernatural have a police procedural feel to them, including this episode. It adds a darkness and grittiness to the show that is unsettling and I like it.
I enjoyed the bro moments because what’s not to like. I honestly could have done without the whole Chuck and Becky subplot. I’m also very concerned that they were foreshadowing that fans might not like the ending Dabb came up with for this show. My rule of thumb is that as long as the brother are together wherever they end up, I’m fine with it but some of the dialogue between Becky and Chuck worries me.
Overall this has been the best episode so far this season in my opinion. In fact I’d go as far as to say I think it’s one of the best episodes I’ve seen in the past three or four seasons. Jensen did a great job directing, the script worked, there was no Cas and J2 knocked it out of the park again! That’s my story and I’m sticking to it! ?
Cheerleaders in danger sounded boring to me, but I ended up being more intrigued by this one than the three previous ones. All three sections caught my attention from the powerful opener to Billy’s story (possibly paralleling Sam’s) to the interplay between Becky and Chuck.
I did think that Dean talked a LOT; it seemed a bit out of character. I was also disappointed that the Winchesters basically said they’d kill innocent people if it meant keeping a loved one alive. I’d die for my family, and I’d kill in self-defense for them, but I wouldn’t kill an innocent person for them. To do so, in my opinion, is monstrous. Billy knew it was. That’s why he surrendered. That’s why Gordon Walker was going to take himself out (after he got Sam first) – to keep from killing innocents. So Billy and Gordon and Amy (who killed her mother to save Sam) are all better people than the Winchesters? If my child needed a heart transplant, I wouldn’t go out and kill another child to get a heart for her.
Totally agree that Dean talked for too long- I was thinking to myself, what is this, fan fiction? Why are they both being soo open about their feelings?
And totally agree re: killing innocent people for loved ones. That line really bothered me, just like Dean putting a gun on Kaia in Season 13 did. It wasn’t okay when the husband in Red Meat “killed” Sam to save his wife, or when Amy killed for her son. Sam has done some sketchy things in the past to save Dean (like persuading people into selling their souls, and oh yeah, unleashing the Darkness), but to say outright that he would do the same thing Billy’s parents did? I guess 15+ years of killing monsters will make you morally compromised. Sad.
//Totally agree that Dean talked for too long- I was thinking to myself, what is this, fan fiction? Why are they both being soo open about their feelings?//
I enjoyed those scenes, and felt they were exactly what was needed given the amount of time we have left. In past seasons, actions, facial expressions and epic lighting, etc.. seemed to be used much more frequently to “speak”. The few words that were shared had much more of an impact because of it. It hasn’t been that way in so long, though – and clearly that’s not a viable option anymore. However, after reading both Aslan’s and your comments regarding this being ooc for both of them to be that expressive, I’m even more intrigued by the choices Jensen made in directing those scenes. We’ve been told they have some leeway with dialog and are trusted enough to change the things that don’t feel authentic to their characters. I’ll be chewing on this all day, now. LOL.
At first, I didn’t quite understand why Billy was giving up. Then it hit me; he was trying to stop his parents! They were rapidly falling into a madness they could hardly comprehend, and had no way of being able to process rationally. I don’t think they were bad parents or even bad people – at least initially. But their son is now a vampire who killed his girlfriend and what the hell are we going to do with THAT!? Instead of looking at the situation for what it was, they just acted on the instinct to protect and feed their son. Billy knew it wouldn’t end until he did. So he made that decision and it was heartbreaking.
This show has been colored in various shades of moral ambiguity from the beginning. It can be hit or miss at times depending on a multitude of factors aside from the plot, but this one..? It got to me. I went from being disgusted by the parents sense of entitlement and privilege, then horror when the blood was being washed off the dad’s hands and I realized what was happening. Then sympathy and compassion set in when the reveal happened. The only thing I didn’t understand was their lack of emotion when they were handing the photo to the police, knowing their son wasn’t coming back. Ever. But maybe they were just in shock..?
//In past seasons, actions, facial expressions and epic lighting, etc.. seemed to be used much more frequently to “speak”. The few words that were shared had much more of an impact because of it. It hasn’t been that way in so long, though – and clearly that’s not a viable option anymore.//
I hadn’t thought of this- thank you for pointing it out!
Wow! Definitely my favorite episode of this season so far. Yesss to the whole opening scene. Dean in a beard. Benny! Cool fighting. JA’s directing. I know some of you don’t like shoot-outs in the Bunker, but I give this one a pass since it was just a dream.
I enjoyed the Chuck-Becky scenes. I laughed out loud (Leviathans), but I was also filled with dread- is Becky going to survive this? She got married, she made a life for herself, don’t you ruin it, Chuck!
Dean killing the boy- brutal. I actually found myself weeping. His poor murderer parents. I had a wedding to go to and I put my make-up on before the episode, thinking, it’s a MOTW, I’m not going to cry. Lol. I liked the throwbacks to The End, to Vampire!Dean almost biting Lisa, to Madison, Paper Moon, Croatoan. Can you fight the monster you’ve become? Sometimes, but not always. And the musical cue worked well (listening to the whole album now).
At a recent con, someone asked about Dean’s arc this year, and Jensen said Dean and Sam wouldn’t have separate storylines. Sigh. But this episode felt promising to me in that regard. I feel like we’ve never seen Sam so destabilized before. Have we? Usually Dean is the one who is depressed, giving up, needs to be cheered up. Sam for so long has been the concerned one, so this dynamic felt new. I hope it lasts.
Loved that it was just the brothers together. Loved that there was an Impala talk at the end, although some of what they said made me cringe. “Jack, Rowena, Mom, the people who gave a damn about us.” Really? Since when did Mom care about you? And should I just accept that no one is ever going to remember the multiple people Jack killed intentionally at the end of last season? But hey, at least they’re talking! I’ll take what I can get.
Overall, I was really happy with this episode! Going to rewatch now.
I loved the episode. It is the best so far of the season in my opinion. Davy Perez wrote a good story and Mr. Ackles directed it well. He told the story and moved it right along. I didn’t anything that was wasted.
I loved the fight sequence that opened the show. It is such a kick seeing Dean going full bad-ass every once in a while with no hesitation or regrets. I loved seeing Ty Olsson who is one of my favorites. I like men with a little bit of heft to them and I find him sexy as well. The dream sequence is intriguing. Isn’t Sam going dark side? What does Sioux Falls mean? More questions than answers which is always a good thing as long as the questions are answered in the end.
Some people said that Dean talked a lot in this episode. I don’t think he talked too much. I think he was just trying to reach Sam. I got a flashback to when Dean returned to the bunker when we thought Michael was gone. Dean hardly left his room, Sam talked to him and got him to go on a case. The conversation at the end, which I loved because we don’t get a lot of them, seemed to me to be Dean’s continuing effort to help Sam. Sam is depressed – he’s lost and he doesn’t see the purpose of this anymore. He’s ready to give up. Dean sees this and is trying to save him. I lost a brother to suicide. We tried to save him. It didn’t work. And often I think about whether there was anything I could have done to save him. I understand Dean’s concern. I would have talked to my brother for the rest of my life if that was a way to save him.
One more comment – seeing the new and improved Becky really illustrates the value of good therapy!
I could watch a whole episode of bearded Dean in a tactical vest and scarf, doing John Wick moves and military gestures. So much testosterone and I was a happy girl. And Benny!!!
The rest of the episode was sort of a blur after that, I was so shook from the first five minutes. I have to rewatch – I know there was some stuff about cheerleaders missing and Sam being depressed. I may add more chatter later…
Did not care for it. I never seem to like the ones Davy Perez writes. All the “meta” talk between Chuck and Becky makes my head hurt, and ultimately robs previous seasons of meaning. Look at me, bringing everyone else down! Sorry!
Jenna – I’m very curious about your take on Becky and Chuck, as I don’t see it that way. What does their interaction in 15.4 change (in case I missed something)
Meta in small doses every once in a while was something I used to get a kick out of. The clever use of satire and lighthearted sarcasm was never offensive – it was fun, and made me feel welcomed and seen. It wasn’t always perfect, but at least I could get caught up and be entertained for an hour.
But now..? Yeesh. It started last season, IIRC. That’s when the tone became sardonic. This isn’t just with any one particular writer, either. The meta in general now is downright degrading and full of contempt. Quite frankly, I don’t care what the power struggles are or aren’t BTS. We shouldn’t have to put up with being made to feel like their creative failures are somehow our fault, and that we need to be “handled” as if we are insolent children. It’s become increasingly difficult to enjoy what little I can while having to decipher the intent of the not-so-thinly-veiled meta snark being thrown into the mix.
For me, last night was the exception. I always liked Becky. I hated they way things were left and that her character was damaged by Dabb himself, in S7 (even though I didn’t completely hate the episode). I was really able to enjoy those scenes with this much healthier, well adjusted Becky. She grew up, took responsibility and is now a wife and mother who can still be a superfan, write fic, have a profitable etsy store, and even put Chuck in his place.
Having said that, there was a significant difference between the last few meta related episodes and last night. Action Ackles made the difference. Could you imagine if they would have handed THAT script to someone else? Someone who didn’t have the knowledge, understanding and connection to the fandom? It would have been an utter disaster, imo. There was a level of care and concern…a warmth that was put into those scenes and softened the blows that would have otherwise left us feeling confused and humiliated. I’m so grateful for that.
I hope someone asks all the good directing questions at the next con. Dying to know all about his choices and vision.
Elaine- I could have been more clear! I suppose what really bothers me is this idea, which they have not really clarified- is Chuck controlling everything that Sam and Dean do, and how long has he been controlling it and in what context? So that’s what I meant when I said the meta talk between Chuck and Becky hurt my head and robbed past seasons of meaning. I mean if Sam and Dean never had free will then the original apocalypse was never supposed to happen- right? (I’m assuming we’re going to find out that Chuck was not controlling them before and they did have free will, but it just all seems so convoluted!)
Additionally, when I watched the Chuck and Becky scenes it just pulled me right out of the story of Sam and Dean, and instead had me thinking about my relationship to the show and the writers as a fan. Basically I feel like this last season of the show is not about Sam and Dean but rather about how stories interact with fandom. The story is about itself now, but I really just want the story to be about Sam and Dean (and to a lesser extent Cas, cuz I like him too.)
I completely agree with you about the previous small doses of meta the show used to traffic in, when Chuck was introduced in season 4 it was very interesting! I thought it was a lot of fun, and actually a very clever way of introducing prophets, etc. I also really enjoyed the other meta episodes, like the musical one and the French Mistake, but now it’s too much, too on the nose for me.
I’m not sure I’m savvy enough for Jensen’s directing to make a difference to me. I will say this though, I don’t like being told what I should like. I LIKED the Leviathans. I LIKED their giant toothy mouths. I LIKED season 7. Sometimes I LIKE it when art makes me feel things other than happy and satisfied. So when Becky was upset about Chuck’s unknown “hopeless” ending, I don’t like being told that I can’t handle an upsetting ending, like I NEED the boys to be all cozy and self actualized doing laundry in the bunker at the end of this. I don’t necessarily need or want that. This is maybe a dumb comparison, but it’s the simplest that comes to mind, I liked the end of “Avengers: Infinity War” much better than the end of “Avengers: End Game.” So am I supposed to be Becky? Is that what the writers think of the fans? I don’t know but I do know I don’t really want to be thinking about that!!!
I feel like I’m crapping all over this episode that people liked, I’m sorry! I do agree this return of a past character was SO MUCH BETTER than other’s they’ve done. I also even liked Benny being in the dream sequence because, damn, Sam must be carrying around a lot of guilt about him. So I thought that was interesting too. I also enjoyed the scenes with the mascot, those felt very “old school” Dean to me.
Assorted thoughts:
– That dream sequence was…HOT. And it was nice to see Benny again in a way that made sense.
– The veggie bacon/”meat man” gag kinda ticked me off. It felt like Perez was pattern-matching the brothers to stereotypes. Oh well, least it ended quickly.
– I never thought BECKY of all people would feel like a breath of fresh air. That’s how you bring a character back – it was the REAL her and not a doppelganger, she fit the story being told, she had a history with Chuck, she even got some character development. And when Chuck disappeared(?) her and her family, I actually felt somethng.
– In general, the Chuck/Becky scenes were some of my faves. It was the first time I bought him as an antagonist. (And as someone who hated the last few meta-nods, somehow this instance felt more fitting? It’s oddly reassuring that TPTB even know what the words “low-stakes” mean.)
– IMPALA CONVERSATION. With the brothers’ faces glowing in the highway lights. Sam getting verklempt over Jess. Be still my fuckin’ heart.
– Loved all of Becky’s creations strewn about her house. And…was her laptop a Flowers in the Impala reference???
You are so right about how THAT is how to bring a character back! And it was awesome that after all these years, Sam brings up Jessica. (Awesome but sad, too, of course.)
I keep thinking about what others here have said WRT the show’s meta-commentary lately – that it feels somehow off, even contemptuous.
But what’s causing that feeling? It’s especially weird because the earlier
seasons roasted the fandom pretty hard too. Yet it was different somehow.
It’d be interesting to break down WHAT exactly is going on in the dialogue or setup to give off that vibe. Right now I can’t put my finger on it.
I haven’t been able to bring myself to watch the last two seasons so I’m just speculating based on the comments. The earlier seasons had a ‘roast the fandom’ vibe. It was a ‘laughing WITH you, not AT you’ vibe. I’m not sure this most recent team even knows what this show is about anymore and maybe they aren’t as connected to and invested in the material. Therefore any attempts at the meta stuff is falling flat.
I loved this one too. I didn’t feel mocked, really, by Becky: Becky was real and had a life and had things she cared about and that satisfied her and liked herself and wasn’t there for Chuck undercutting her or his just general disengagement with reality. Chuck can think her life is dumb or a dim mirror pointed towards him or pathetic or whatever but out of everything going between the two of them, it’s the only thing with any substance at all. He can sneer all he wants, vanish anything he wants, but he’s nothing. Chuck is meaningless. Becky is real.
Loved seeing Benny again even though I don’t see how it holds up to the slightest scrutiny. He anchored that dream sequence in a necessary way after years of personalityless hunters and allies and enemies – here is someone full and fleshed out and meaningful and now gone. Telling that they had to reach back seven years to find a character with enough weight to pull it off.
And another tough sacrifice. One of the threads I loosely keep track of is how many people ask or agree to be killed for the greater good, and in particular how many go down on their knees before Dean for their execution. They’re coming hard and fast lately. Grim feeling about the coming days.
jenny –
I’m glad you are commenting on the season 15 episodes. It helps me keep my I Want To Believe going for the final episodes.
:o the spn poet laureate! :o your comments and poetry have delighted me.
Thanks, and I’m glad it’s helping someone. I feel like it’s 3 am before an 8:30 final and no more information will penetrate. Prof’s totally going to know I blew off the past 15 years.
jenny –
Thanks for the kind words.
// I feel like it’s 3 am before an 8:30 final and no more information will penetrate.//
If I recall from previous comments, you’ve started watching fairly recently – is that correct? I started during season 3 I think, and then left off for a while and returned to real time in season 7 or 8.
Got a favorite season or arc?
you’ve started watching fairly recently – is that correct?
I think I started watching at the end of May? It’s been in fits and starts since then – long pauses for life events and after arcs or eps that truly pleased me or hurt me or disappointed me – after s5; after s10 when I wasn’t sure I was ready to be around Dean Winchester for a while; after s11 and also 12, when my enthusiasm was at a low ebb; most recently after Damaged Goods, when I hurt in an overwhelming s4/5 sort of way. But I’m out of time to pause and reflect now.
It is difficult to pick a favorite arc! There were so many good ones. On first watch, probably seasons 8 and 9, which gave a lot of space to Sam and Dean to deal with how their childhood warped their relationship, and how their relationship was hurting them both. This is probably the angle of the show that matters the most to me; my sister and I had a rough time of it growing up and I found the way the show deals with the effects of a less than ideal childhood recognizable and resonant. This grabbed me in early seasons, but 8/9 really let those elements breathe, really sent all of that baggage straight to Hell.
On a second viewing, I loved the plot to s6. The Alphas and the Campbells and Eve and the weapons of Heaven didn’t impress me, but the whole mystery of the souls, why Sam came back the way he did, wtf was up with Castiel, the massive personal and global stakes were fascinating. Watching it a second time was kind of like the end of The Usual Suspects in slow motion, just one HOLY CRAP moment after another. I don’t think anything had been so intricately plotted and executed before or since.
S2-5 were basically flawless, mythological.
What about you, what are your favorite arcs?
Er, anything on the show has been so intricately plotted as s6, if that wasn’t clear.
I’m with you, S2-5 were wonderful. Epic.
I also loved the Mark of Cain arc.
And every time O.G. Death showed up.
So much to love.
Wait, you’ve watched up to season 15 since the end of May – And watched season 6 again.
You binge Queen! No wonder you feel full up.
Ha! One of my roles in my household is content finder, so I’ve been guiding my partner in her binge watch too. For most of the run it’s been delightful, not a chore at all. But she’s in s13 and so it’s been a slog lately – we just bailed on the Ketch’s Evil Twin ep last night.
I’m caught up now. I’m looking forward to it being over, in a way, because I hope that these last few seasons will feel less fraught, that it will be easier to enjoy the good moments and forgive the rest when it no longer feels like a sword is hanging over the proceedings.
you caught up just in time!! \o/ a valedictory effort. I have no, no, no idea how to feel about what is coming.
I can’t even imagine what it’s like for you. You’ve been doing this since the beginning, haven’t you?
I really felt the difference between binging early seasons and this almost real time watch of s15 – every ep feels like a battle. I miss knowing I have a hundred eps in front of me and good will and indulgence to spare. I understand the frustration you’ve all been dealing with much better now. Trying to find the right balance between openness and self-protection is miserable.
p.s: i want to believe, too <3