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I found this episode pretty meh, and I am really hoping that the show doesn’t try to have a “Sam and Eileen sitting in a tree” ending. \stamps foot\
Did anyone else spend most of the episode trying to remember where they’d seen the actress who played the witch? Just me? I found out on another site – she’s been on SPN twice before. She played the wife in “The Usual Suspects” and she was in “The Monster at the End of this Book” – she was the agent for Chuck Shurley who had the Winchester tattoo on her butt. There were other actors from the past: the actress who played the missing boys mother was in “Plucky Pennywhistle’s Magical Menagerie” as the manager. Last, the younger witch was the young killer girl in the deadly portrait in “Provenance”. It’s really cool that the show is bringing back so many faces from the past.
I knew I recognized the momma witch! I thought it might be that actress but she looked dramatically different here. I did catch the actress from Plucky’s right away – she has a very distinct face.
I couldn’t agree with you more about finding this episode to be “meh”. It was nice to see Eileen again but I think this bullshit about any soul that was in hell can no longer ascend to Heaven is ridiculous and clearly against canon. Also, as someone pointed out on Twitter, how will her being brought back to life prevent her soul from returning to hell when she dies again? And don’t get me started on how she wound up there in the first place. Or, for that matter, why does she deserves a second chance rather than Kevin?
I’m really done with the retconning of canon that has been rampant under Dabb. For every one decent episode there have been at least five that show lazy, sloppy writing and a lack of imagination. As well as a clear lack of understanding of what makes this show so special.
A pox on them all! ??
I guess Sam and Dean should be happy Billie threatened them with the Empty, considering they’ve both been to Hell and now supposedly can no longer enter Heaven. Lol. (Never mind that previously Dean was able to get to Heaven just fine after having spent time in Hell)
I didn’t think the episode was great or even good. I, like everyone else, am pissed by the total disregard for the Supernatural canon which is an essential element of the saga of the Winchesters. If I were Eric Kripke, I would be boiling mad because it indicates a total disrespect of the Winchester world. Just the element of bringing Eileen to life was a waste for me. The actress playing Eileen is good, but the character itself is not all that interesting to me. Also, why bring back Eileen? Why about Bobby or Charlie or Kevin or Benny? Is Eileen somehow more important to the story or is she just a love interest for Sam? So he saves his “true” love? BFD!
But, rather on focussing on the episode as a whole, I appreciated some tiny blips of character or story that made me sit through the entire episode, once. This will not be a repeater.
1. The fact that Cas may finally turning back into the badass, avenging angel that he was in the past made me enjoy the “B” story better than the “A” story. Being human may have made better drama in some people’s eyes, but I will admit that Castiel has never been one of my favorite characters. The whole Destiel schtick bores me to tears because I could care less who, how or why you love. Not my business. Again, the only love I care about is the love that the Winchesters have for each other which drives them to ridiculous ends most of the time.
2. Is Sam going to become a warlock? (Is that a male witch?) I found that intriguing. The dark side of Sam which has always been a part of him could be tapped in that upcoming battle with God or make him a better man of letters or something. There is a scene in the first LOTR movie where Galadriel tests herself against the power of the ring. She sees herself as a terrifying all-powerful queen for a second and then she overcomes the power and the spell of the ring. She chooses not to be seduced by the power of the ring. The line,”I was taught by the best”, couldn’t just be filler. At least I hope not.
3. I loved Rowena’s apartment. I want to live there. The tile in the hallway, the big double door, the books, the furniture. I loved every bit of it.
My favorite part of the episode was the outfit worn by the witch in the first scene. I am going to get
1. Plaid pants
and
2. Giant boots
as soon as possible. and also a long black coat. She looked FANTASTIC.
no one else’s ears probably pricked up at this but the favoured daughter witch was called Jessie and I am taking that whole awful witch storyline VERY PERSONALLY
lol
Hi, long time lurker, first time commenter. I enjoy reading everyone’s opinions on the latest episodes, so thought it was about time to add my own! This episode was pretty much the first one I’ve really enjoyed all season. I loved that Sam managed to Eileen back though the whole thing was stupidly easy and far too convenient, typical of the writing in last few seasons. I think it would be interesting to see a relationship or even just strong friendship develop between them. I definitely don’t want Supernatural turning into a romance or drama but I think them being together would add a dynamic that we hadn’t seen rather than just rehashing the same formula for another season. Sam also doesn’t seem to make close friends the same way that Dean does and it would make a nice change. I’m also completely over the unhealthy codependency between Sam and Dean, I mean it’s been 15 years and pretty much nothing has changed and it’s gotten stale, maybe Sam settling down with another hunter might do them both some good. I’m hoping that’s one part of their relationship that will be fixed by the end of the show. I’m also a fan of Cas for that reason, I liked that Dean had someone to turn to who wasn’t his brother. I also hate the Cain and Abel story line for that reason too. I think it’s obvious that Dean would rather let Sam kill him than have to kill Sam, evil or not, so I have no interest in this big showdown between them, I feel like I already know how it’s going to go down anyway. I hope it’s the last we hear about Rowena, I never warmed to her character and I didn’t really get the vibe that her and Sam were that close and despite redeeming herself at the end she still did some awful things to them before that. I enjoyed Cas’s storyline in this episode, him fighting the Jinn he looked like the Cas from seasons ago and was pleased that the writers wrote him as being a competent as a hunter as well as with dealing people outside the Winchesters.
Hi Faye! I’m curious about something you said about Sam and Dean’s codependency, because it’s something that I’ve seen in other places as well. A few weeks ago TV Guide posted an article about how “It’s Time for Supernatural’s Legendary Winchester Codependency to End.” But I have to admit, this was a little baffling to me, because the last really crazy “codependent” move I can remember the brothers taking part in was when Dean killed Death rather than killing Sam at the end of season 10. But that was five seasons ago…and since then, I can’t recall any “you come before everything” actions on either of their parts. At the end of season 11, Sam let Dean go to Amara alone to (presumably) sacrifice himself. In season 13, Dean left Sam’s dead body without even seeing confirmation of it (!) just because Castiel said he was gone, in the vampire cave in the alt universe. No demon deals, no resurrection spells. Those sacrificial choices were part of the DNA of the early seasons, but I haven’t really seen any trace of them in the last several years. Am I missing something?
I’m also firmly in the “meh” camp as far as this episode goes. My favorite part was the ” Name That Guest Star” aspect of it. I caught two of them immediately, but totally missed the youngest witch being the little girl in the painting from “Provenance”!
I’m absolutely loving all the familiar faces coming back as the minor/secondary characters. On the flip side of that however…
The complete rewriting or disregarding previous canon on the show just so they can have an excuse to bring back a major “fan favorite” character? That I’m pretty much weary of already. I said it last week when they brought Lilith back…..all they have to do now is say”Well God did it/caused it/changed the rules etc. I don’t like that at all.
The phone conversation between Dean and Cas did make me chuckle. I like that the first thing Dean does after not talking to Cas in awhile is chew him out for not calling Sam back. I also got amused over the fact that Cas apparently fishes in his suit and trench coat.
So Angel blades kill Djinn huh? I’m sure lambs all over are frolicking merrily in relief.
I agree with everyone about the old faces, and I was stunned when I read that that actress was the Providence girl came back — what a fabulously deep cut. I’m excited to see more!
I’m glad Sam had a win, and I like Eileen fine, but Dean was the best part of the episode for me, what little of him there was — food schtick aside, I thought his scenes had a purpose and solidity that other parts of the episode lacked (witches — although I loved how easily he shot one), his interactions with Cas were interestingly curt and amusing, and I really liked the final conversation between him and Sam, shades of “it’s what we do” and that too-early final cut aside.
I suppose Chuck has changed the rules now with this “you can’t go to heaven” business, and, whatever. I can grudgingly accept that if that’s the explanation. What peeves me most in terms of “new canon” is ghosts choking each other out and being able to roam around at will and just being generic and dull and witches waving their hands and batting ghosts away and blah blah blah.
There’s a lot of clumsy stuff that really niggles at me — a djinn case that does nothing with djinn powers, another week of bizarre music choices, this time courtesy Tangerine Dream (honest question, is this supposed to be another Chuck quirk?), the spacious hidden closet inside a wall that no one could find, Rowena’s magical journals magically being there ready to magically save the day ad infinitum, another convoluted discussion of how this thing we’re doing might not fit with a previous episode but here’s a spurious explanation for why it’s happening anyway, blood makeup pouring from the eyes that doesn’t actually go up to the eyes, etc. I’ll probably forget a lot of that. Here’s the thing I won’t forget:
They learn of a spell that brings a dead person without a body into full alive corporeality — one of the most powerful and rare spells the show’s ever invoked that would have changed the course of the show in seasons previous. Rowena, the greatest witch ever, never finished it. Sam works it out in a few hours. It turns out that all you need to do this extraordinary spell that cheats death is deck out your gigantic bathroom in some sterile dayspa accoutrements, light a few generic candles (for mood?), throw a few tea balls in the bath, and say some Latin. Already I am mad about how dumb and immaterial and inconsequential all that is. Lily Sunder had to lose an eye to get what she wanted! ON TOP OF THAT, Eileen’s resurrection is a pristine fluffy-toweled demure and painless success. The perfect white bath, the lingering shot of her bare foot. I know Sam feels tenderly towards her, and the team loves the actress, and I know that she’s big in some fandom circles. But I honestly think it does a disservice to her character to treat her with such distasteful delicacy and yeet her so gracelessly up to that high and unusual pedestal. I’d understand if others disagree, but it left a real bad taste in my mouth.
I get it — they wanted to end an unambiguous win and they didn’t want anything nasty and gross to sully the pretty happy scene and relieved and comforting feelings. I don’t care, it means your episode conception sucks. Bring her back to life next episode and at least have Sam chop off a finger (his own, someone else’s) or tell a kid santa isn’t real or get a devil horns tattoo or something that means anything.
//There’s a lot of clumsy stuff that really niggles at me — a djinn case that does nothing with djinn powers, //
Why oh why use djinn as generic throwaway monsters when they have so much potential to reveal the hopes and fears of different characters? Some of my favorite episodes are with djinn: the one with Charlie in Season 8, the one where Dean is hallucinating YED coming after Ben and Lisa, and, of course, What is and What Should Never Be. Guess we’re never getting another one of those.
On the bright side, at least Castiel got to be competent. I was kinda wishing he would stay away a little longer, though.
//Already I am mad about how dumb and immaterial and inconsequential all that is. Lily Sunder had to lose an eye to get what she wanted!//
Sigh. Remember when magic was gross and had consequences and Dean hated witches? And now apparently Sam is one. He better at least learn how to throw people against walls. I’m tired of seeing Sam and Dean get thrown around so easily.
Jessie, I’m sure I’ve said this before, but I always think of that electrifying “Rainspell” video you posted a long time ago – I bookmarked it and hid it away somewhere, because I find it powerful and terrifying and honestly a little unsettling. It’s visceral. And it reminds me that the show used to speak that language. Your aversion to this sort of “Resurrection Lite” makes a lot of sense to me in light of that video. (Does anyone want to talk about how when Dean was resurrected, it created a blast site that stretched for miles?)
Is it possible that the cost is coming? In a “what’s dead should stay dead” fashion? It’s hard to imagine them adding a new recurring actress in the final season – so what will they do with her otherwise? [“Thanks for resurrecting me, I’m off to Ireland for a bit”?] [“How’s Eileen?” “She’s good, just hanging out in a tiny MoL dorm room where no one can see her, feel like working a case?”]
I also find Dean’s extreme lack of interest to be…interesting. Giving into fatalism and soggy cereal…that makes sense to me for Dean. But to barely blink an eye at this convenient resurrection spell? Didn’t Dean say something like, “Too bad we couldn’t have used this on Mom?” I mean…are we not going to have a five second conversation to even consider all of our other dead pals who could be resurrected instead? It’s hard for me to imagine that Dean – who seemed to be showing a surprising amount of indifference to Eileen’s ghostly plight, and wasn’t even invested enough to be present in the room during the resurrection in case things went sideways – isn’t going to float the possibility of raising Mom instead. Or Kevin, whose tortured ghost we just saw. Or BOBBY. (That would have created a VERY DIFFERENT bathtub scene.)
//I honestly think it does a disservice to her character to treat her with such distasteful delicacy and yeet her so gracelessly up to that high and unusual pedestal.// If nothing else, this made me laugh loud enough to startle my poor sleeping dog.
Fortune — agreed!
Bethany — I think about that incredible unsettling absorbing vid all the time! Yeah, they don’t seem to speak that language very often any more.
The prospect that the spell could have consequences to be revealed — that’s what I’m clinging to. I would love to be able to take back a bunch of that vitriol, and think wow what a great setup for an even better knockdown. I guess we’ll see! I’m also wondering what they’ll do with Eileen — my boring guess is that she’ll just leave the bunker after an episode or two because she wants a second chance at life etc. The sadder option being, if there are indeed consequences, to protect Sam somehow; and the even sadder and more brutal version in which Dean asks her to go, or she agrees with Dean that it’s for the best, or something. I find Eileen interesting much in the same way as Charlie — she’s someone who opens up a space to see something new or uncommon with Sam or Dean – -although I can’t say I find Sam & Eileen pairing off at the end as appealing as some of you fine folk and others around the internet ways.
Barb & NB — nice to see some old friends here at the end of all things. Totally get stepping back Barb, there are a lot of voices that can get in your head! NB — they’ve sure been on a tear with Dean The Eater, haven’t they?
Just have to agree-I had the same feeling, hearkening back to the Rainspell video, and mourning and missing how visceral the show used to be, thanks for mentioning it! Just getting glimpses here and there is so frustrating.
//Lily Sunder had to lose an eye to get what she wanted!// where are the consequences? I view this as another retcon this last season. Magic always requires a price. I appreciate that Sam got a win when he needed it but it was too neat and clean.
They’ve gotta bring back the actor who played Jessie the Antichrist — one of the biggest loose ends in the series. He doesn’t even have to portray Jessie (but it’d be nice, if just for closure) but to see him for shits and grins.
I know I don’t often say anything here, but I read everything. Plus, this season put me in stealth mode all around. I am waiting to see more until I make up my mind. But so far I noticed a few tendencies that kind of put me on the edge. I am glad that the Winchester world is shrinking. It needs to be stripped of all the clutter from additional characters and go back to two tumbleweed guys fighting impossible odds in the shadows. Dirty, hurt, desperate. That’s what I fell in love with, that’s why I still hold on to the show. And I honestly CRAVE for a brutal ending. I don’t care for fluff, I want a bloody hopeless fight, I want tragedy. I want to weep for days after it ends and not because it sucked too much to honor the show!
What scares me a lot is that on top of losing a grip on this story being about a relationship between TWO people, the last few episodes take us back to the beginning of a show when Sam was a Mary Sue and the poor woobie the world revolved around. Dean back then was supposed to be a sidekick of sorts, and I am glad that he (huge TY to Mr.Ackles) quickly tore through that crappy set-up. But lately I am watching the show and I see “Sam, Sam, Sam. Marta, Martia, Martia” as Zachariah once put it. Sam without a full-blooded character of his brother is nothing, but they barely give Ackles anything to build on.
For me the story throughout it’s history has been less Cain and Able and more Jesus and Judas/Paul. (Don’t get me started on how deeply I believe this story needs a Magdalen!) How can you have a Winchester Gospel when you leave out the friggin’ Christ figure, writers?!!!
Recently the whole “God as a vilain” theme (which I dig as an idea) got me thinking of “Jesus Christ Superstar” where the same line of though is subtly running through the narrative. (especially in the scene of Judas’ death when he blames God for using him as an instrument of murder and the choir sings “Well done, Judas”) Gotta rewatch that again and think more about SPN.
Hi, all-
We good? I’m kinda good, I guess.
I haven’t read everyone’s comments–so please forgive me for popping in to say something personal instead of contributing directly to the conversation. I am finding myself needing to pull back from the SPN family, for now, much as I will miss hashing things out with you. It’s not just this thread, as I’m cancelling some podcast subscriptions, avoiding some websites, attempting to cut my consumption of fan videos. This is not because I’m disappointed in SPN, or in the fandom. I am still going to watch the show–the good, bad, and ugly–but I want to do this without feeling like I have to compare my reactions with anyone else’s or pass judgement on the show in general. We’re on the last slope, and I need to downshift in response. I need to start to figure out what my life looks like without Supernatural in it–which is honestly much harder than I thought it would be!!
I will still be around in my little corner, and will probably continue to write intermittent fanfic, if anyone wants to come and visit me on LJ or Archive of Our Own–I’ve linked the websites here. No coffeehouses or clavicle caressing in my stories. Not yet, anyway. I like to write about secondary characters, outsider POV, and sometimes even Sam and Dean, and I try to keep things within sight of canon.
I know that I’ll still be watching with you in my head, even if I am not contributing to the thread–Sheila, your site has become an essential stop for me! I will see you at the bottom of the hill.
Hello! Long time no commenting! I stopped watching the show for a year (Asa Fox was the last straw) and it then took me 2.5 years to catch up (says a lot about the watchability of these later seasons, considering I blitzed through seasons 1-9 in a month on my first SPN go-around, but ah well). Finally caught up tonight, because awful or not I need to see the last season as it airs, dammit. I’m so excited to be in the loop here again- I love the chats.
In re: the new season, there is stuff here that I like. Mostly I’m relieved that they are (realising the error of their ways?) veering in, however clumsily, on, you know… the central brother-relationship that the show HAPPENS TO BE ABOUT. So, you know. I’ll take it.
In re this ep:
a) I too desire the witch’s outfit
b) I liked the casting for the episode- it wasn’t generic, nobody was identical (!), it was nice to see Harassed Plucky Pennywhistle lady again, etc. I liked Desk Lady reading the romance novel.
c) I don’t understand the choice to throw in a djinn just for, what, kicks? This is something that /obviously/ wouldn’t be thought of in the New Order- but once the djinn appearing signalled BIG stuff, stuff about dreams, trauma, yearning.
d) Mixed feelings about the canonization of Rowena. Yes, I liked the nuance of maybe-she-and-Sam-are-actually-a-bit-fond-of-each-other-after-all. I liked it more when it was a nuance. (And Sam has spent more screentime ‘processing’ her loss than that of Mary. wtf) But the choice for her to leave her stuff to him was nice, I think, and could open up some interesting stuff.
e) That spell made no sense. Where is the COST?
f) Little as Cas interests me these days, I enjoyed his plotline here. I liked that he was allowed to be violent and angry and I liked that the djinn presented no match to him. He mowed him down. (Although- again- djinn are supposed to be the emotional/symbolic BIG GUNS.)
g) I liked seeing Eileen again and I love the vibe between she and Sam. I really thought they were going to hook up and, actually, I wish they had. Could have added a nice layer to the Sam/Dean stuff that’s going on.
h) ‘We’re the guys who break the rules’ -no, no, STOP spelling it out. Still: better than ‘We save the world, we’re so brave’ et al. But why must we ruin a perfectly good subtext?
i) Can the fun side of the Sam/Dean relationship only be expressed through food gags now? What fresh hell.
j) Did clock a few shots of genuine beauty & that is a priceless thing in these uncertain climes.
On the whole. I enjoyed it. (When I started catching up on the show I was determined to at least /enjoy all of it. Even season twelve. I’ve just /about/ managed. LOTUS really stumped me.) The meta stuff feels ‘off’- but could be much worse. Biggest problem for me is that it’s just making me want to rewatch, you know, the seasons where they did the same stuff, but the first time round, and poignantly, and carefully.
Wow. What a long comment. Hi guys.
Popping back up after a long absence to say I still love reading everyone’s comments on the episodes. After the awful ghost apocalypse that opened the season (really, ghosts running down the streets in broad daylight? a Jack the Ripper ghost who wasn’t threatening at all?), the last two episodes were more interesting to me.
The Lucifer!Sam vision was a great call-back and Jared plays that contained and polite evil so well. When he turns his head to the heat of Dean burning behind him, oooof, and then transitioned so well into the shot in the car when he wakes up. Hands down, the visions/au’s have been my favorite part of s15 giving us a glimpse of what could have been without lingering in those storylines.
I’m not sure how to feel about bringing back big characters like Lilith for a small part. On one hand, I hate it – she loomed so large and was such a threat and now she’s just an agent of God, playing out his stupid story. On the other hand, she was so self aware that it was dumb and that she had to play her role that I ended up enjoying her more than I thought.
This last season has me so confused and I have no idea where we’re heading at the end. Again, I love it and hate it in each parts.
I am totally with you, Paula. I live in hope that Sam can be repurposed as a real full-fledged meaningful character like the visions, like he used to be. And I need to say, I have enjoyed coming to Sheila’s site to see what you all think of this up and down last season. And I especially want to thank you because of a post you did ages ago….I have always, for some reason, avoided any fan fiction but, being sad about the show ending, I decided to read some. Knowing nothing, I had no idea where to start. About then you shared your Tumblr and I got a few recommendations off that, and it has offered me some solace, because there’s some really good stuff out there and hey, it has really eased the blow. Thanks so much for sharing; I don’t know if or when I’d ever taken that plunge without your nudge.
Thanks for saying this! I was a little unsure about sharing that at first but have made some great connections with other SPN fans there. I agree 100% – with the show ending (and with some of the issues I’ve had with it this last year), it’s nice to find fic that helps you imagine all the ways the show and the characters could be. Happy to see you post here!