New re-cap up in the post below this one, for “The Usual Suspects,” from Season 2. I know. I’m running things weirdly here. But it suits me.
Here’s the open thread for tonight’s episode. Won’t be able to watch until tomorrow. See you all then!
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I’m sure you meant “episode 4”, right?
Jeez, you’re fast! I changed it 1.5 seconds after it went up. all better now.
Sorry, I had like 3 minutes before a conference call and I thought I’d check the site. I didn’t know how long it had been up. I’m not lurking – honest! : – )
No, it was hilarious. Up it goes – boom you comment – at the same moment as I correct my mistake – all in literally a 3 second time frame.
Oh and please. If you lurk, I’m flattered! At least you don’t get annoyed with me when I don’t post about SPN. That’s when I don’t like the lurkers. :)
Not that anyone here has done that ever!! But it’s happened before with other specific fan groups.
anyway, moving on. Title corrected, we’re good to go!
that picture of Dean continues to freak me out! His eyes look different sizes. And…frosted tips?
I know – I need to get another poster up now that he is no longer a demon. So many of the posters are so CHEESY though. :)
I knew Dean would crack first and want to get back to work. The man just can’t rest.
I was just waiting for him to say something. I LOL when he did.
Full frontal Baby! Oh yeah!
Relationship conversations in the dark! Oh yeah!
Warren Zevon. Happy sigh. They need a time travel episode where Sam goes back to Berkeley in the 70’s and the SLA is a vampire family and he saves Patty Hearst. Roland The Headless Thompson Gunner. Just sayin’.
Dean and Sam both in sunglasses. Is that a first? Oh wait, they both had sunglasses on in the CSI spoof in “Changing Channels.”
Dean yanking Sam’s chain about spraining his elbow. Then the hook, “See that thing in the paper this morning?”
“just in and out, a milk run.”
“yeah, ’cause that happens all the time.”
Who knew that Lester would be the gift that kept on giving? And the car conversation.
” … it caused you to go dark.”
“Go dark? Label it if you want.” Nice comeback, Sam.
Lots of resonance with family and the things that one might do to protect them. Sketchy things. Regrettable things.
Later conversation in the car. Dean, “Do you want to nuance this thing?” Yes, let’s verb this noun. We’ll McGuyver our way out. If that doesn’t work, we’ll McQueen to Poughkeepsie.
Tasha calling Sam “Paul Bunyon.”
Dean finishing by talking about trying to do the right thing.
A few things I was looking for that didn’t happen: no further teasers with Broomhilda. The Mark of Cain didn’t appear to kick in when Dean fought the young werewolf. When Kate said,”She’s my sister,” I was hoping she’d say “She’s my sister AND my daughter.” No more Roman Polanski for me.
I enjoyed the episode. And next week: singing!
Yes – Warron Zevon! That was awesome. I loved that whole scene, moving through the roadhouse.
Paul Bunyan. Hilarious. Mean.
The night scenes in the car were gorgeous. And there was one closeup of Kate, where there was a gigantic blurry green circle behind her head. Stunning shot. I don’t think she’s a very good actress – someone like Nikki Aycox could have brought a hell of a lot more torment into the character – she was pretty surface-level with it – although I liked her in Bitten quite a bit. So that was a bit shallow for me – her sister, however, was phenomenal. Great little performance, totally in love with the sense of power and immortality. She really clicked into it.
Jessie, you will be pleased to know I have come around on Bitten. :) Sometimes I miss things the first time around – like not liking “The Benders” the first time. Sometimes I’m wrong.
I re-watched Bitten and really enjoyed it – especially the two boys. It also is a pretty accurate depiction of college life and college romance. I also LOVED the little featurette about how they created that episode, handing cameras over to the three actors.
I had a feeling Kate would someday return to the action. I liked that when she did – she brought with her a sibling story. It was pretty on-the-nose, but that’s okay. We need to have those mirrors, those reflections. I don’t mind it.
You pulled out just about everything I liked mutecypher! What does it say about me that I found all the completely flat, “we are talking about what we are talking about” Sam-Dean conversations about feeeeeeeeeeeelings perfect and everything else far, far too clumsy? And yet, I am suspicious, because those kind of open conversations are too uncomplicatedly what we want — we have talked about this desire before, how they always make us that the “this is what I feel” “I hear you this is what I feel” conversation to fanfiction!
Structurally the episode had some major issues. That diner scene nearly killed it. It’s a bummer because I enjoyed Bitten and the actress the first time around but her story and performance this time really struggled to operate as anything but a lead balloon of obviousness. #Thinman last season ran this risk but had a bit more pep and managed to avoid the worst pitfalls I think.
I think it can be easy to be too critical (or vice versa) experiencing it week-to-week so I’ll try it again at some point, and perhaps you good people can help me re-evaluate.
A couple of things linger. What did Sam do, obviously, and how Monstrous is it. Are we returning to the Problem of Sam?
Also, not much explicit follow-up on Dean’s outburst re: John, family and the mission while being cured. It’s still being processed I think, sitting under the drive to get back to hunting, to be something uncomplicatedly good again. Unsustainable? If we’re doing the feelings talks, is Dean going to start resolving some of these issues?
Jessie – I know what you mean about being critical on a week to week basis!! I had the same issue you did with her performance. It just didn’t land. She had a lot to do, she had to be the one narrating her own flashbacks, and horrified/sad and all that – and I just don’t think she, the actress, was up to it.
Once we actually met the sister in full werewolf form, I understood the tragedy of what had gone down – but Kate’s performance was shallow for me (which then just highlighted the obviousness of the sibling-story connections.)
I still think it was a relief to get a break from the angels – which then just left all this free time for Sam and Dean to talk about their feelings.
I’ve only watched the episode once.
It seemed to me that Dean was the driving force in many of those conversations, in starting them up, in trying to address what was going on.
What do you think? It felt like Sam was running interference, playing defense … although he did assert himself from time to time. I think there’s a lot Sam isn’t saying. Dean, too – but he was much more … chatty than I thought he would be.
I’ll have to watch again.
// And yet, I am suspicious, because those kind of open conversations are too uncomplicatedly what we want — we have talked about this desire before, how they always make us that the “this is what I feel” “I hear you this is what I feel” conversation to fan fiction! //
I know just what you mean!
Really an episode of two halves, with one far more interesting than the other, rather than a dramatically satisfyingly, oblique and twisted mirror of all things Winchester as per Ann, Annie, Whatever Whatever.
I loved the in-car conversations and the sheer difficulty on both sides in even naming what has just happened and what they did. I liked the way the conversations were strung out, circling, suspended, lots of pauses and gaps, effortful searching for worlds. They had an interesting effect on the pace of the episode, and again there was that sense of drift and of flatness, the kind that comes after a great emotional high, not of relief but of emptiness. But they’ve still not got to the why and the conversation ain’t over until they do.
The werewolves. Meh.
On the plus side:
‘That sling come with a slice of crybaby pie on the side?’
A hunt derailed by … joggers?
More tales of poor old Lester …
‘Let’s say you’re right’ ‘ About what?’ ‘Everything.’
// I liked the way the conversations were strung out, circling, suspended, lots of pauses and gaps, effortful searching for worlds. //
Totally agreed. There was a lot of space in those conversations. The time-constraints of the episode were really loosened – because we didn’t have to spend time with Hannah and Castiel – :) So there was a lot of wiggle-room in the pacing. Wiggle-room is great because it leaves a lot of space for behavior – which was what was going on in all those car talks.
// ‘That sling come with a slice of crybaby pie on the side?’ //
That made me laugh out loud. Not as much as “This all sounds like Sad Times at Bitchmont High” but close. I love it when Dean gets cranky.
that jogging scene was filmed in such a strange way. Broad daylight. Guys waving guns around. People everywhere. There was a lack of context somehow – having the confrontation be in broad daylight. It feels like everything would have happened in a more subtle way. I don’t know. Something was off.
and yes – unlike Alexis Ann Annie – where the connections were so disturbing that they HAD to remain unspoken – here it was pretty obvious.
I think if Kate had come to the table more in a state of sheer terror and pain – it would have obliterated the obviousness of the plot. I get swept away by people who are truly in a STATE. I didn’t feel she was. Maybe she was intimidated by JA and JP. I don’t know. But she didn’t “go there” in her performance.
The sister, however, did.
//that picture of Dean continues to freak me out! His eyes look different sizes. And…frosted tips?//
Maybe Sheila could swap it for this one?
HA!!!!
‘What with logging … icecaps … bitcoin … Obama …’
My favorite section of the episode.
Loved every moment between Sam and Dean last night. That opening scene alone was great. “A slice of crybaby pie” cracked me up. The show…or maybe just Jensen…seems to be poking some fun at Jared right now with that question from Dean. The real question seemed to be “You do all those stunts all these years and you dislocate your shoulder wrestling with “Osric Chau?” Loved it!!
Ahhhh the sunglasses. Those two are so expressive with their eyes and the sunglasses shutting them off from each other and us immediately struck me. Words were being said out loud but not matching what was going on inside. Then finally the glasses came off and a real moment of truth emerged.
The whole episode felt like that between them. A slow and cautious dance and everything still so careful and fragile between them. They aren’t just trying to get past the whole Demon Dean thing but everything that happened last season as well. The whole “I’m not trying to start anything but….” moments were great. They don’t even quite know how to argue with each other right now. Moments of truth emerging but still lots separation as well. They are trying though
Sam riding in the backseat while the werewolf girl rides up front? That simultaneously cracked me up and made me go awwwwww. Such a gentleman even to a “monster”!
Kate and her sister didn’t interest me as much and it definitely felt like the episode was doing another Winchester relationship parallel in the same vein as season 9’s #Thinman. If so, then of course they want us to be worried. Kate having to kill her sister when it became apparent she couldn’t be saved. The mark of Cain, the whole Cain and Abel ultimate conclusion…it is very much looming on the horizon. Don’t think it’s any coincidence that Dean was asking Sam if he had the strength to do what needed to be done in the last episode. I definitely think this is going to be revisited again. The show has been throwing out the whole “killing your brother” thing for years and they don’t seem to be finished with it yet.
Apparently we are going to have to wait two weeks for the 200th episode. :-( Preview said November 11th and next week it looks like they are re-showing “A Very Supernatural Special.”
// The whole “I’m not trying to start anything but….” moments were great. They don’t even quite know how to argue with each other right now. Moments of truth emerging but still lots separation as well. They are trying though //
Yes. They were also extremely well-written scenes. There were four of them, if I recall correctly – maybe even 5 – and each one had a different feel. They were the real point of the episode, each one leading to the next, and the next …
Not getting anywhere. Circular. But yes, trying.
Thinman didn’t bother me like it did many other fans – mainly because I love the Ghostfacers, and love those two actors. It was good to see them again. Here – I don’t have the connection to Kate that I did with them – and her performance was flat for me, so it didn’t work as well.
// The mark of Cain, the whole Cain and Abel ultimate conclusion…it is very much looming on the horizon. //
Definitely. “Looming” is the right word.
They know they have to deal with it. They don’t know what to do. It didn’t seem to play a role in the hunt – but it’s clear that JA is playing it anyway. The need of the mark, how it is impacting his personality, all that.
Just an aside–Did anyone catch what Dean said to the werewolf when he told them to get on their knees? Something about being flattered? Is our boy flirting–or attempting to flirt–with the bad guys again?
Definitely. Going to the sex, as he always does. :)
Michelle –
Crud, I missed that date on the preview.
// They don’t even quite know how to argue with each other right now.// I think they are each going to be riffing on Crowley’s “how do I even begin to ask for forgiveness” question. Ohh, maybe he’ll be their relationship coach! I bet Crowley has Lulu’s To Sir With Love on his sad-about-Dean playlist just so he can imagine Dean singing the line “how do you thank someone who has taken you from crayons to perfume” to him. He wants to hear from Dean that he completes Dean.
But with Sam and Dean… much healing needs to take place. Perhaps singing will help! I remember how much better everyone felt after “Once More With Feeling” on Buffy. So there’s that to look forward to.
Jessie –
It’s only pandering when they give those other fans what they want. It’s sophisticated storytelling, homage, and character embellishment when we get what we want.
And the diner scene, I agree. Mostly I found myself thinking “Jeeze, Kate seriously has Anime Eyes.” She didn’t seem as interesting as in “Bitten.” Nonetheless, her character did a good job of playing the anything for family/careful what you wish for melody/countermelody.
Barb –
Dean’s retort was “Wow, well I’m awfully flat…” Which is way porn-y. So yeah, flirty.
Also, when I was fast forwarding to get to that line, I noticed that there was a “Posted No Hunting” sign by the boys when they were at the lake at the start of the show. Subtle.
Missed the No Hunting sign. Good eye!
While I did not miss Castiel and Hannah – I definitely felt the “lack” of Crowley, which just goes to show you how dominant he has become.
Dean saying the word “embarrassing” to Sam … it’s extremely revealing.
Thanks for double-checking that, mutecypher! Not a line that would have come out of Demon Dean’s mouth, was it? It’s a little thing, but I was sad he didn’t get to finish that retort.
Yeah, the “No Hunting” sign, very cute, I thought. That’s a fan meme just waiting to happen. Heck, I might screen-cap it myself.
Barb –
I assume we’re given an ambiguous ending to Dean’s line so that we can either think he was going to complete the word “flattered” or that he was comparing his chest to the chest of someone else that one might picture in that situation. Either way, flirty.
mutecypher —
lol re pandering to fans, and Once More With Feeling. The major revelation of that episode was, of course, that Buffy was happy and in Heaven, which: have we already linked that to the relief Demon Dean must have felt on occasion? What shall this episode bring, I wonder?
Helena, Michelle —
I like how you write about the conversations. Very hesitant, circular, feeling their way through to an open dialogue. The most beautiful scenes in the episode of course.
Of course the most obvious sign that things are not copacetic is the abundance of scruff.
// ave we already linked that to the relief Demon Dean must have felt on occasion? What shall this episode bring, I wonder? //
I honestly think Dean misses being a demon. What a relief it must have been. The fun he must have had. This is sick twisted stuff – emotionally – the thing that brings victims back to their abusers – the thing that was so awesomely portrayed in Annie Alexis Ani whatever. So Dean calling it “embarrassing” – and then saying “Crowley” after that …
It’s embarrassing to have had so much fun being bad. It’s embarrassing to have been so caught up in that relationship with Crowley. It’s embarrassing to even admit being embarrassed.
Classic abuse stuff.
// Of course the most obvious sign that things are not copacetic is the abundance of scruff. //
hahaha
Haggard Vikings, the both of them. With Risky Business sunglasses.
Seriously, that first scene … they almost seemed like losers. Middle-aged guys wearing sunglasses meant for 18 year olds, drinking brewskis, with no women around. Brothers. Like … uh-oh. This is not good.
That whole monologue about being old and sitting on the porch next to someone … from Thinman, I think? I mean, that first scene is what that actually looks like, in SPN world, and it is not a pretty picture.
Jessie –
And Tara realized that Willow had been altering her memories. And Xander and Anya stared and blinked at the troubles in their relationship. And Buffy ran into Spikes arms. And mustard was removed from a beloved shirt. Favors were offered in exchange for not writing a parking ticket.
Will the SPN episode be as fraught? I hope so.
Yay, all caught up! This is what having a wonderful sister with a DVR can do for a girl. And a season 2 recap as well! I feel very Supernaturally fulfilled. But also that I have too many thoughts for commenting.
Wrong place to talk about last week’s episode I know, but just two little things: you all were right about the weird porn and pie props, and my favourite scene was Demon Dean breaking down the door – so much energy and purpose.
This episode:
Jessie: //Of course the most obvious sign that things are not copacetic is the abundance of scruff.//
I actually thought this a couple of times while watching. Especially having The Usual Suspects in my mind to compare. As sexy as the scruff is, it isn’t a good character sign.
Of all the sunglasses in all of the world, why those pairs?
I liked everyones’ descriptions of the car dialogue scenes: hesitant, fragile, circular, dancing, etc. Those scenes were so much more compelling than the werewolf stuff. The rain and headlight lighting making inside the car this safe, almost cozy place.
Dean’s “I’m so tired of doing the wrong thing” and Sam’s reaction felt like a place of honesty and care that has taken such a long time to see.
It seems to me that they are going to have to figure out what family means to them now, perhaps they have to ‘nuance’ it. Reexamine loyalties, right and wrong, what it means to love someone. Perhaps the musical chorus will help with that, maybe a song titled “I draw the line at that” or “Demons, Dads and Death” something like that. Get some outsider, rhyming, p.o.v.
I LOVED how Dean turned nuance into a verb. I should have mentioned that at the start.
This is new language for him. There’s a lot of new language going on for him.
and Heather – yay for sisters with DVRs!!
//It seems to me that they are going to have to figure out what family means to them now, perhaps they have to ‘nuance’ it.//
Hey Heather. Another though, and I could be wrong but I didn’t hear the word ‘family’ once in their discussions. (That was left to the Olsen Werewolf Twins to shriek from the rooftops.) It’s the f-bomb, it triggers so much and all that dancing around was like an attempt to find a fresh vocabulary to talk about these very old, very painful issues avoiding all the explosive words thrown around last week – dad, mom, family. So that’s what I found extraordinary – the delicacy of their discussions, tiptoe-ing towards the as-yet unsayable. Dean saying ‘This is good, this is good …” – the ambivalence of it. I can forgive them any amount of dimestore sunglasses for that.
Yeah, the “this is good” was fascinating.
Season 9 was super effective the more I think about it. It needed to get that bad. It needed to destroy everything. Plot shmlot, what Season 9 did was destroy that relationship because it needed to get that bad. And now …
they’re trying to … not pick up the pieces exactly. But look around and see what’s left.
I don’t think “family” was mentioned either. They do seem to be beyond that. That tie is no longer understood or taken for granted. It has been used to cover up a multitude of sins. But here they are … working a case … exercising creaky muscles …
the whole thing was fascinating to watch. Those feelings conversations had a very different vibe than anything we have seen before from them.
Sam describing carrying Dean’s body to the bed … it put that image in my eye. Tremendously emotional. That was the closest we got to saying “family,” I think. And Dean saying, “I know, I know …”
There are disagreements, but there seems to be a fragile space where they can actually … speak to one another now.
Okay, haven’t read the thread yet. Saw the ep. last night.
First impression:
1. Wow. What a difference it makes to have zero angels in the episode. Just like the good old days. For me, it really highlighted the problem with the angels – as they are now. Having them nowhere to be seen sort of righted the scale of the story-structure … making it clear and clean. It was a relief. Sorry, Castiel, but I didn’t miss you at all. Sam and Dean. That’s what it’s about. There was a clean line in the episode – maybe even a little bit “boring” after all the angel/Crowley shenanigans – but I found it a relief. It was nice to have a Monster of the Week.
2. What – FOUR big talking scenes between the brothers? Each one subtly different, but each one … mired in stuff they can’t say, or are afraid to say. Hesitant, circling the drain … It was pretty glorious, both actors bringing so much subtlety to all of it.
3. Dean said the word “embarrassing.” I’ve been thinking about that a lot. That’s not a word he normally uses. Ever. It’s almost like he’s coming out of an abusive relationship and is embarrassed to admit how susceptible he was to it. A ton has been revealed – and Dean is a very “revealed” guy anyway. He can’t hide much. But Crowley took away what was left of his defenses. So there’s shame in Dean. – he’s “embarrassed” … Using that word. Been thinking about Dean’s use of that word. I’m seeing much of his behavior through that filter.
4. “Bitcoin. Obama.” Hilarious. Loved that whole exchange … where both of them were thrown off by the cop actually wanting further information. It was comedy – but it also showed both Sam and Dean are WAY out of practice.
5. Sunglasses. What? Dare I say it, they both looked like douchebags. Lame as hell. Like boring middle-aged guys who have no idea how to make their own fun. That’s their vacation. They have no idea how to go on vacation anymore. Yearly trip to Vegas? No. They seemed really middle-aged to me in this episode. I loved it. Like – adult. That whole opening scene was pretty interesting in how boring it was. And the sunglasses. So bizarre. Risky Business sunglasses.
6. Sam had some hysterical line readings (the end-beat in the cabin – laughing at something Dean said).
7. “Flattered …” Oh, Dean. On your knees, pal. You know what to do.
8. They honestly don’t really know how to talk to each other anymore – but they honestly are trying. It was strangely touching. I was just kind of in love with them both. The entire episode was about them trying to talk! (And of course, Monster of Week was a sibling-story – don’t need a doctorate to see the connections.)
9. And God, it was good to have a BREAK from the damn angels. This is what the show was like for three seasons before they showed up. The original structure remains intact. They can still get back to it.
Okay – taking a road trip today – will come back and read through all the comments. I didn’t want to check them before I had a chance to see the episode.
But these are my initial thoughts!
You guys – I want to thank you all for showing up here to discuss the show. Your comments are all so thoughtful and interesting. It’s a great way to process the episode!
//Embarassment.//
Yes. A huge admission and almost a new word in the Winchester lexicon. And saying embarassment rather than shame … shame goes deeper, to the moral core of what went down, but ’embarassment’ speaks to the whole ‘hunter operating in a hunter’s world’ as well as bursting the bubble of the Dean Winchester Burlesque Act. Not being able to hold his head up among his peers.
And yes, sitting down at the lake, with beers, actually bored out of their minds. After weeks of cavorting with Crowley, what doyou do to relax and unwind? A nature cure. I wondered if they had (whisper it) booked in at a spa.
Saying “It’s embarrassing” feels adolescent. It’s tough to admit to. “Embarrassing” is getting too drunk at a party and throwing up and your whole high school class knows about it. There’s a social awareness there – but here, the awareness is …
I guess that he has maybe fallen in Sam’s eyes. He has lost stature. Not in a bossy way – but it’s “embarrassing” to have gone so far off the deep end. So often when he would talk to Sam he would put it in terms of – I need to look out for you, because when you go “off,” you go WAY off.
And Dean has now almost topped all of Sam’s shenanigans.
So there’s a real intimacy in the word “embarrassing.” It’s a huge word for Dean to say.
I was also so distracted by the sunglasses that I could barely focus on the dialogue. I had to re-wind.
Apologies for crossposting, but I put this on the other SPN thread by mistake:
We were talking last week about mapping the bunker, but maybe we could get this guy to do it? He seems to love libraries. And laboratories.
Oooh, and for you New Yorkers, he has an exhibition of work there at the moment! Mon Dieu!
Thank you!!! Will definitely go check it out!
Wow, Helena–that is amazing! His boxes look like abandoned sets from a 50’s horror movie. And yes, very much like the Men of Letters–or the MoL after having been destroyed, if some of their “contained” creatures had run amok after the organization took a turn towards sinister science. (Wouldn’t surprise me a bit if they had a sub docked somewhere in the bunker, either!) This article blows me away.
Hi Barb, yep, verging more towards the Thule Society than MoL, maybe ;-) with a touch of Anselm Kiefer for good measure. (And his studio translates as The Coughing Gnome Studios.)
A couple more things that really struck me on rewatch. The fact that Sam was in the backseat of the Impala when they had one of their deepest heart to hearts felt really huge to me for some reason. They were actually able to talk to each other a little better when they weren’t directly looking at each other. Sam was able to confess that he had lied and that there was more that he had done during the months of searching. Dean talked of being embarrassed by it all. But there’s still deeper undercurrent lurking in those surface words. Much is still hidden from each other. I keep drawing parallels to the opening scene with the sunglasses. Words being said “I’m golden” but their eyes (windows to the soul so to speak) closed off.
The second thing that struck me was the moment when Deans says “I realized I never said thank you. So…..” and he trails off and pauses. Sam pretty quickly jumps in with “You never have to say thank you….not to me.”
Dean was finding it hard to speak the words and one could easily write it off as him maybe feeling like it was to close to a “chick flick” moment to be able to say it. Personally I think he was having a difficult time saying it because deep down….he knows he should be grateful to Sam for saving him, but he’s really not.
I can’t wait until Dean and Crowley see each other again.
// The fact that Sam was in the backseat of the Impala when they had one of their deepest heart to hearts felt really huge to me for some reason. They were actually able to talk to each other a little better when they weren’t directly looking at each other. //
Yes – to have Dean looking into the rear view to talk to Sam – and Sam focusing on the rear view too – it put a different spin/feel on the heart to heart – and added a layer of distance and challenge to a situation already challenging.
Those car scenes were all so dreamy.
And “I’m golden.” Like a couple of other phrases Dean used in the episode – this is new. This feels new. Dean doesn’t talk like that. It doesn’t feel right. He’s in completely new territory – and so his language has changed. It’s … strange. Not in a bad way. In a great way.
// Personally I think he was having a difficult time saying it because deep down….he knows he should be grateful to Sam for saving him, but he’s really not. //
I need to watch the episode again keeping that in mind.
I think you may be right. There’s regret going on there for Dean – and that may be the most disturbing thing of all. Sam never regretted getting his soul back. He felt guilty about what he did, and apologized to those he had hurt, and tormented himself about all he had done, and thanked Dean for never giving up on him. Here Dean is in a similar situation … and he feels ambivalent.
Awesome.
Sheila –
So I wasn’t the only one doing a Nikki Aycox comparison. The actress who played Tasha did an excellent job. I was completely fooled by her pretending to be just a normal scared girl on the jogging path. I thought Sam and Dean must have followed the wrong person. And then her “come over to the dark side” speech to Kate – she sold me.
And I agree with everyone’s comments about “embarrassing” – a vulnerable choice. The “real” Dean is in charge at this point, the human Dean, the one burdened with a conscience (damned things).
Helena – Great find on the boxes. They are beautiful.
Yes – Tasha was completely two different personalities and I bought it all. She did a wonderful job! I loved how much she RELISHED her new position as something invincible.
That, more than anything else, drove home the point that Dean loved being a demon, Dean misses being invincible, and Dean could never bring himself to admit that – at least not yet. There’s that mix of powerhouse and submissive in Dean’s makeup … the killer and then the little guy dominated by his father. The submissive wins – it’s so strong in him.
And somehow – all of that is connected to the word “embarrassing.”
Helena: wow, what a perfect find. Now I am imagining a stop motion SPN short. And //Another though, and I could be wrong but I didn’t hear the word ‘family’ once in their discussions. (That was left to the Olsen Werewolf Twins to shriek from the rooftops.)//
exactly what I mean. When they are in the diner and Kate is saying “she’s family!” as if that explains all of her actions and Sam and Dean are staring at her like ‘what does that even mean?’, it really brought home the change in them to me. I am excited to see what they come up with regarding what family means now.
Sheila://I guess that he has maybe fallen in Sam’s eyes. He has lost stature. Not in a bossy way – but it’s “embarrassing” to have gone so far off the deep end. //
I think that loss in stature was a major factors in those car conversations. Dean kept pointing out the ‘dark’ stuff Sam had done, and then we got the “this is good” and then Sam would ask if Dean is ready, then Dean would come back with concerns over whether Sam was ready. Lots of back and forth. Maybe they are trying to hash out who is the leader, or, if they can in fact have a partnership without subordination. Dean’s final admission leaves room for the possibility of him allowing Sam more leadership.
// Sam and Dean are staring at her like ‘what does that even mean?’, it really brought home the change in them to me. //
I know!! That was a major moment.
// Maybe they are trying to hash out who is the leader, or, if they can in fact have a partnership without subordination. Dean’s final admission leaves room for the possibility of him allowing Sam more leadership. //
All through Season 9 I felt Sam strengthening as Dean was weakening. You know? It was so symbiotic – it was like they couldn’t stop that process. Equality was impossible. Dean kind of was making it impossible – for me, that was the real point of Season 9.
So now what.
They both seem pretty disoriented. You could feel it in those conversations in the car. It was wonderful.
Hope it lasts. Hope they wallow in it for a while – even as other stuff has to happen.
I’m not very confident with the HTML tags yet, so I hope you’ll forgive for this test .
Lyrie,
Great image! Those guys…
I might have gone a little crazy on the screencaps with this episode, but there were so many gorgeous shots ! Season 10 looks really good, I think. (I can’t explain why, but it makes me happy when they turn their flashlights direclty towards the camera .)
I really enjoyed going back to a monster of the week episode. No angels, just the two brothers talking in the dark and blood splatters : so great! Although, it’s not as simple as it used to be – if it ever was. As you pointed out, their conversations were very moving, each one being a little more sincere and less awkward. These pauses, the broken rhythm… They did such a great job!
«You’ve been kicked, bit, scratched, stabbed, possessed… killed, and you sprain your freaking elbow?»
Great!
Like all of you, I wasn’t convinced by big sister werewolf. Which disappointed me, because I like Bitten and was really happy to see her again.
Sheila: // Thinman didn’t bother me like it did many other fans – mainly because I love the Ghostfacers, and love those two actors. //
« Fifty Shades of way too much protein ! » Ah ! I love the Ghostfacers too, and I liked Thinman very much. The actors made it work – the two creeps, too. I’m often more scared by humans than by supernatural beings.
Heather: // The Mark of Cain didn’t appear to kick in when Dean fought the young werewolf. //
Dean even seemed a little weak to me. Maybe the absence of killings diminishes him physically?
« Welcome to the majors, boys ». Sure, Sam just saved the day with one arm, but please, Dean, keep talking to the dead guys. He is off his game.
But his moment of brotherly concern when he himself just got punched in the face warmed my heart.
Mutecypher, I was so happy to see the car again too! But even if Baby’s back, she’s not her usual self: she’s not shot like a beautiful lascivisous woman like she so often is, in particular when we are reunited with her. And she’s so dirty ! So frustrating! This show knows how to manipulate us.
Speaking of which: Dean wants to do « what’s right », and he also asks Sam if it’s « right » that they’re still here. Add the siblings killing one another, that’s very worrying. And it could go both ways: Sam might have to kill Dean to « do the right thing », but Dean could be overcome by his demon self again. I find it amazing that the show still manages to make us really worried about these guys when they’ve already been through so much.
« It’s embarrassing, you know. The note, Crowley… Everything. »
I felt so bad for him, and I admired him for admitting that. It must not have been easy. Anyone who’s done or said terrible things, stupid things, ridiculous things, violent things while not being themselves can relate, I suppose. Having to examine that, talk about it, knowing that one way or another, be it Crowley or Cole or just to face his brother, it will come back and bite him in the ass… not easy.
So far, we’ve seen the American flag once in each episode, if I’m not mistaken (in Black , Reichenback , Soul Survivor , Paper Moon ) . Maybe it’s just someone winning a bet, but now that I’ve noticed it, it’s all I can see. Thoughts ?
Heather: // Of all the sunglasses in all of the world, why those pairs? //
They stole them at the gas station as a joke. That’s my explanation.
I noticed the American flags, too. I am loving the image of the snickering Canadian crew stocking up on patriotic American paraphernalia.
Hi All,
One of my students came dressed as Castiel yesterday. Awesome!
I saw her, the trench, white shirt, backwards blue tie, and loudly exclaimed “are you Castiel” to which she relaxed and smiled as if she hadn’t expected anyone to guess. Later she found me and asked “how much Supernatural do you know?” It took me a moment to understand how to answer, eventually I said ” um, everything?” and she was still unsure and asked “even season 10?” When I said, yes I got another smile and fist bump.
Hahahaha; bond for life!
// I said ” um, everything?” //
Heather – hahahahahaha!!!
That is so great!
Finally watched last night. Enjoyed the lack of angels! But I kept wondering — would it have been too neatly tied up for Sam and Dean to tell Kate about Garth’s happy-safe werewolf family and send her there?
Rae that was my thought. Although after the way she was treated, I don’t know that she would have trusted anything they said.
I was hoping for that too – mainly because I miss Garth!
Maybe they’re dangling out the “possibility/non-possibility of a werewolf cure” so Garth can come back eventually?
I cling to what I can in this uncertain world.
Sheila, I am glad you enjoyed Bitten the second time around! The dynamics and characterisation really work for me. And talk about outsider POV! And yet for Kate’s second episode we get about as close to S&D as is possible without going inside their heads.
On rewatch the strengths and weaknesses pop even more. Its various misdirections are cheap, the staging in the barn is lame, the diner scene goes for a whopping, inexcusably endless seven minutes, and its parallels are both too forced and kind of murky: both brothers map to Kate, in the “take a bullet” sense, and both map to the sister who “goes bad” — Dean in particular, in the freedom and power found in embracing baser instincts when you’ve spent so much time being “good.” I think this latter is the most useful parallel to come out of the episode (see below).
It seemed to me that Dean was the driving force in many of those conversations, in starting them up, in trying to address what was going on.
Yes, he pursued them even when they started faltering into silence, but I kind of struggled with the idea of “what’s going on”: all the Winchester coversations swirl around the concept of “readiness”, which doesn’t really fit to the werewolf plot, and is kind of murky in itself. What, specifically, are they recovering from? What are they getting ready for? It’s not physical (Sam’s arm aside). No-one’s trying to feel out the lies in the other’s story (Sam’s crimes aside). Are they restocking the trust bank? Are they trying to “process”? What do they want, individually and as a unit, now? What do they want their lives to look like? All of this is not for a sole episode to reveal, of course. I’m not sure yet if the nebulousness or lack of specificity is a strength or weakness here.
Lyrie, you’re right that Szwarc does a lot of great work with light in the darker scenes. Very gorgeous. And he did a lovely job with the very uniquely Supernatural the two-handers, which are nearly always two people sitting side-by side instead of facing each other. A lot of shots of Dean especially hanging out in the wrong end of the frame, looking off uncertainly.
I also really appreciated the minor symphonies of confusion, yearning, awkwardness, shame JP showed, responding to each moment of the conversation very delicately and openly (this is of course one of Jared’s biggest strengths as an actor so I really enjoyed watching him do his thing) — despite his fib there’s little guardedness here. In contrast Dean is surprisingly closed off. In the drive to the cabin, Dean with Sam behind him and a monster riding shotgun at his right arm (ha ha, cute), he knows Sam can’t see him but he is still very blank, not at all the Dean whose face constantly betrays him. Interesting choice. Very hard in those final shots with Dean in an almost confrontationally close close-up to parse him. So we finish on the two of them together, but with Dean out of focus, and Sam thinking hard, concerned (yay for finishing on Sam!).
As for embarrassment, absolutely, yes, it’s about exposure in a social situation. Like Lisa having a picnic on a rug in Dean’s dream, Dean’s embarrassed that some of his inner life is exposed. Here, his undisciplined freedom, his violence, his enjoyment of not having to care; all this is revealed to Sam without Dean’s consent. Fucking awkward! Dean’s neutral face then is a defensive mechanism. He’s protecting himself — and all of the assertions of “you were a demon, it isn’t you, it isn’t you talking” — all of that will come back to bite us in the ass.
Yes, Bitten was really good – I missed it the first time. The outsider POV – spying on Sam and Dean from afar, super-fun. And that three-way relationship really worked, and felt very real.
// the diner scene goes for a whopping, inexcusably endless seven minutes, //
Right?? I re-watched and could not believe how long that scene was. And she, the actress, was not good enough to pull it off. That is a long-ass time – and JP and JA are compelling and WILL steal the scene from you – just sitting there – so step up your game, Miss, cause I’m bored out of my mind!!
// Dean in particular, in the freedom and power found in embracing baser instincts when you’ve spent so much time being “good.” I think this latter is the most useful parallel to come out of the episode //
I agree. And a lot of that (for me) had to do with just how much relish Tasha took from her new role. She was set free. no way in hell does she want to “go back.” So there’s a lot to think about there, for Dean – and (thankfully) this is new territory. It’s not the same old “I feel guilty” stuff – it’s different. There’s something there that’s holding him back from his old patterns – and he is tentatively looking for new ones. Lots of interesting and strange behavior – I’m not used to it yet and it’s fun to parse it out.
Will read the rest of your comment – but just wanted to say that while it was fresh in my mind.
// What do they want, individually and as a unit, now? What do they want their lives to look like? //
Now this is fascinating. Season 9 got pretty explicit in its second half about everything that was wrong with their dynamic. (Or, as explicit as the show gets.) You know, Sheriff Mills getting gaga-eyed about what “you and your brother” have to Sam … and Sam’s look of disturbed reaction. Like they’re meant to be All to one another. I felt a call-back, if you will, to that – and to the “two old guys sitting on a porch together” conversation from Thinman – in that opening scene of this last episode.
In other words: Okay. Y’all are brothers. You have clearly given up any thought of … romance, or even whoring around to take the edge off. You are now “in” to the dynamic. You are brothers, and you will do everything together. You will not take separate vacations. You will sit with a cooler of beer in a campsite. You will not even read books, or do a crossword, or surf the Net. You just sit there, wearing cheap sunglasses. It’s like they are totally tapped out. That’s what I was getting from it anyway.
Then Dean says “We Time”, which was … icky. He said it with a bit of an attitude – a bit of a joke to it – but still: that type of intimacy is what got them into trouble in the first place.
But maybe there’s a bit of … snark in the presentation? I’m not sure what I’m getting at. Just thinking out loud. You know, the domestic fanfic of Sam and Dean doing nothing, just sitting around being lovely to one another … maybe presenting the reality of that, and really making it seem STATIC and stagnant – Part of that whole “Okay, so let’s give the fans what they want but present it in another kind of way” type thing that they do a lot. Messing with us.
I mean, in watching that opening scene – I think there were four cuts showing the two of them sitting together, with the mountains in the distance. They KEPT going back to that establishing shot, out of the close-up to close-up stuff – which just added a feeling of nothing-ness, boredom, stasis, to what was going on. Obviously deliberate.
In a strange way, it added to the adrift feeling of these opening episodes. People are WAY off their game. Season 9 destroyed the comfort zones.
So now what …
// he knows Sam can’t see him but he is still very blank, not at all the Dean whose face constantly betrays him. //
Yes.
JP was really carrying those scenes through his reaction shots and how he listens. It really helps the non-Dean-ness of Dean land – even though JA is presenting it all to us. It shows how connected these two actors are. They really created a very strange unique new vibe in all those conversations. Dean is … not un-reachable … but different.
The rules have changed – but nothing has really come in to replace what was there before.
Nothing wrong with this – I think it’s healthy and awesome (for the characters and the show).
// Like Lisa having a picnic on a rug in Dean’s dream, Dean’s embarrassed that some of his inner life is exposed. //
Yes!
// his undisciplined freedom, his violence, his enjoyment of not having to care; all this is revealed to Sam without Dean’s consent. //
Awful. Dean’s worst nightmare. His defense mechanisms removed. The Mark still there. The blank-ness at the heart of their We Time. The lack of peace, or even of enjoyment. They both look bored out of their minds. Or – maybe not bored. Wary.
I forgot to say, my other favourite bit was Sam leaning on the Impala, long legs out and hips cocked like a street whore. Hello!
OMG – that clip. hahahaha
Yes, I loved that pose from him – with his bum arm dangling – a bit different for them, yes, in terms of posture, positioning – they’re all out of whack right now and I’m kind of loving it. His legs looked so thin, too.
As I have been re-watching Twin Peaks – realized that the broken-heart pendant is the exact same one as the sisters have here. Signifies nothing probably – :) – but I can’t imagine it’s a coincidence!
I know, the only good bit about that diner scene was the server bell ringing: “There is no cure for werewolves.” ding! ding! ha ha ha
Tasha worked, I agree, and I bought her fury. She had a good arc.
Your comments on the lake scene are interesting and it’s hilariously tragic to think of it this way. They have no idea what to do. What a couple of losers. Let’s have a holiday! Let’s go outside and drink! Jeez. Grab a deck of cards at least. Operation! Some marbles! Anything!
“Okay, so let’s give the fans what they want but present it in another kind of way” type thing that they do a lot.
I’m sure that’s a component! Part of me — the desirous part — is like noooo….they’re chillin, it’s great, it’s perfect. But you’re right: real fan-service would have been them playing darts (like in the old days) or hustling (like in the hold days) or sitting on the hood of the car looking up at the stars (like in the old days). But you can never go home.
I think it’s also meant to comment on Demon!Dean’s version of holiday-making, which had just about everything but the crossword puzzles (ha!). To make the opposite of Demon!Dean unfulfilling — to make us miss Demon!Dean — well that is definitely giving us what we want in the worst possible way.
Great catch on how the editing rhythms kept cutting back on the pauses in their exchanges, opening up that interpersonal hesitancy. Also served to hook into Dean’s boredom, or inability to sit still — at the end, he talks about being unable to just sit around and “process”/heal whatever we want for him; he needs to be working, to do the one thing that makes him feel good about himself: saving people, hunting things, the family business — I think we can probably all agree that diving back in here uncritically would be a disaster. That cannot be his primary source of self-worth anymore.
But yes, I totally agree, all of this is percolating some very interesting new vibes. Definitely going to be interesting to see how it develops. Significantly, I feel like they’re not setting up a similar Soulless!Sam resolution, where the magic gets fixed, and “he” is back. The MOC/D!D is dug in like a root system. It’s distorting but it’s not falsifying and it seems like they plan on dealing with that, which is great.
Augh don’t remind me that I never finished Twin Peaks I feel guilty enough!!!!
// Jeez. Grab a deck of cards at least. //
Exactly. They’re not even TALKING to each other. Most boring vacation ever. And the sunglasses. They both seemed so “off.” Great.
And there was a moment during the jogging-woods scene – when Dean comes trotting back up the path to confront Kate – and the way JA runs in that moment … I don’t know. He looked almost middle-aged there. Tired. A little out of it. Something about the way he held his body, the slight effort it took to run – Clearly JA is a fit guy, and still in his 30s – but compared to her sleek smooth youth, he seemed damn near creaky. I love it when he seems like an old cranky guy. His age, too, made his forays as Demon Dean even more “embarrassing.” You know, it’s like a 38 year old guy who constantly dates 19-year-olds. His friends who know better are embarrassed for him. It’s so revealing.
// real fan-service would have been them playing darts (like in the old days) or hustling (like in the hold days) or sitting on the hood of the car looking up at the stars (like in the old days). //
Exactly, right?? So then we all can breathe a sigh of relief, even though we know it won’t last long. But we weren’t given that at ALL. Just this uneasy silence and stasis. Two 30-something year-old guys wearing stupid sunglasses, sitting in lawn chairs. Like, wow, guys. Isn’t there something you want to DO?
// to make us miss Demon!Dean //
Excellent point. It calls the entire show into question and I love it when they do that. We’ve been loving Dean for 9 years, and he’s a karaoke-singing Demon for three episodes and suddenly we miss him and yearn for him. Ha!! JA must be having so much fun with all of these expectations that he knows are on him. You can tell in his performance.
// Significantly, I feel like they’re not setting up a similar Soulless!Sam resolution, where the magic gets fixed, and “he” is back. The MOC/D!D is dug in like a root system. It’s distorting but it’s not falsifying and it seems like they plan on dealing with that, which is great. //
Yeah, the whole Mark thing is so interesting. It’s a curse. It’s a visible manifestation of what went down in Season 9, and Dean’s chaotic time as a Demon. So every time Dean looks at it (thank goodness he never wears short sleeves, so at least he can avoid it for the most part) – he will be reminded. It brings back how “embarrassing” it all was for him. “I’ve still got the Mark …” the way he said it … it was almost pleading. Like … we’re gonna have to deal with this, Sammy … There’s a passivity there, mixed with the aggression given to him from the Mark … I don’t know, there’s always that ambiguity. In every moment is its mirror, its opposite.
The Mark gave him strength. The Mark embarrasses him now. He is a victim to it. He is submissive to it. It has control over him. It goes on and on. That struggle is going to be really interesting.
And in re: Twin Peaks – Ha!! That first season is so damn strong, and still one of the weirdest things ever put on television. The lunatics running the asylum. The second season is over twice as long – and meanders – definitely not as strong, and way more soap opera-y. But still. So much fun.
I want to write something about the primary relationship between Kyle McLachlan’s Agent Cooper and Michael Ontkean’s Sheriff Harry. What a beautiful example (and very rare) of open and intimate male relationship. Total paradigm shift – especially when you consider that usually FBI and local law enforcement are portrayed as being at odds, or at least in competition with one another. One of the reasons I find Twin Peaks so touching is this male friendship – so close there’s almost a romantic feeling to it – and it’s all mixed with things like admiration and respect and professional courtesy. These two actors basically fall in love with one another over the course of the series. Their good-bye 9 or 10 episodes into Season 2 is palpably emotional. Men are so rarely portrayed in this way, especially friendship between two men. Re-watching this last time, it struck me that it is STILL a rarity in film/TV/whatever.
I don’t remember any jogging in forests but I do think about age a lot with Dean these days! It ties in with your other comments. What do they want their lives to look like now? There have been a couple of episodes now that have dealt with their transition to an older generation of hunters (as a new one emerges) — Dean’s rising forty now and I guess he’s just expecting to turn into Rufus, Bobby, Tara Our Lady of Biceps, Kubrick, other grizzled hunters. Sam alongside.
Maybe because the early days when they were LITERALLY BABIES with BABY FACES are always so present in my mind, it’s a bit of cognitive dissonance for me to think of Dean turning that corner — not that it actually is a corner — but it should make for some interesting stories or at least inflections on the stories.
So re: what they want and male friendships, this is where Supernatural is so fucking weird. As you say, they’re brothers. They’re not romantic partners, which we are trained to believe can be All to each other. If they were romantic the show would be over, or at least X-Filing it. They’re not buddies, who get to be both “too” close and have space open up in their lives through outside relationships. If they were buddies at least one would be married by now. It’s like they’re destined to end up like crazy awesome attic cat spinster sisters. Lace and spiderwebs everywhere.
I don’t know if there ever has been a televised duo whose irresolvable closeness and isolation has been so structurally critical and narratively rich. There are buddy classics like Starsky and Hutch, Man From UNCLE, Miami Vice, I’m not too familiar with them, but there’s a big tonal difference. Due South explores it a bit in later years. X-Files is not agonised about its duo. House got quite a bit of tension out of the co-dependency of the main friendship but it was more of an ensemble (or one-man) show.
Your comments on Twin Peaks pique (groan) my interest even more. Reminds me of one-season wonder Terriers, which had a similarly extraordinary male friendship between two great actors, Donal Logue and Michael Raymond-James. Intimate, strong, empathic, forgiving, funny. None of the typical tensions you see in buddy shows and it’s a terrific show beyond that. I can’t recommend it enough.
// it’s a bit of cognitive dissonance for me to think of Dean turning that corner //
Jessie – me too. Yeah, he’s running back through the woods up to meet up with Sam again and it’s just 2 seconds but he looks a little stiff and winded. Slow down there, Gramps.
// Tara Our Lady of Biceps // hahaha
// So re: what they want and male friendships, this is where Supernatural is so fucking weird. As you say, they’re brothers. They’re not romantic partners, which we are trained to believe can be All to each other. If they were romantic the show would be over, or at least X-Filing it. They’re not buddies, who get to be both “too” close and have space open up in their lives through outside relationships. If they were buddies at least one would be married by now. It’s like they’re destined to end up like crazy awesome attic cat spinster sisters. Lace and spiderwebs everywhere. //
You really hit the nail on the head there in the strangeness and unique quality of the dynamic. It’s so obvious they are siblings – and yet – what other show about siblings is like THIS? With this sort of tension? Sam “breaking up” with Dean in the last episodes of Season 9 was so destabilizing – and I’m glad to see that they (meaning the SPN team) haven’t had them bounce right back. To playing darts, wisecracking, all that familiar stuff – which is at least recognizably healthy grown-up sibling stuff. No – instead we get this: awkward silences, cheap sunglasses, and circling around the same subject matter – warily, and yet … trying.
I still need to watch Due South and I have not seen Terriers and don’t even remember it! Slings and Arrows, speaking of Paul Gross, had all of that male macho showdown stuff going on – except in that case it was in a Shakespearean theatre. Nothing more macho than a bunch of directors who think they are God, and I speak from experience! But it is such a relief – with Twin Peaks – as creepy as it is – to hang out with two men who flat out like each other, cut each other slack, admire one another, and are able to express what they feel openly. Collaborate. I kept waiting for one of them to get pissy or competitive. Never happened.
Love your thoughts, Jessie and Sheila, on this episode. The axis of the Winchester’s world has definitely tilted and nothing is as it was before.
//He looked almost middle-aged there. Tired. A little out of it.//
Yes. And more than that, I realise I don’t trust Dean at this point, and I’m also not sure if I even like him, which is an interesting state of affairs when he’s been the lynchpin for me from Seasons 1-9. By trust I mean I got the sense I have just about lost the sense of his POV as the moral anchor of the Winchester world, and am looking at him very much from the outside. This despite all the apparently sincere exchanges with Sam and ‘wanting to do the right thing.’ I think Dean is also seeing himself from the outside and it’s really not a good picture. He is still adrift and unknowable post cure. There are hints about the extent of the damage but no prognosis about true recovery. The magic relationship button, to paraphrase Jessie, has not been pushed to ‘reset’. In a way he was simpler to grasp as a demon. I’m not sure this version of Dean could shed tears. That might be the one proof of being ‘back.’
Anyway, this psychodrama is so compelling that on first (and second) watch I found the werewolf sister storyline a distraction. It felt like an unnecessary recap of the season’s first three episodes, replayed by people who were too pink and blonde and too clean to convince me they’ve are outlaw drifters surviving on rage and chicken/human hearts. Tash’s embrace of her monstrous state as a way of escaping weakness and fear, while strongly resonating with me in theory, just seems unearned dramatically (although I love how Winchester psycho-dramas are (nearly?) always mirrored by females. It’s never boys, is it?). Maybe her performance just didn’t chime with me. And the sisters’ youth is jarring – they run rings round tired, battered old Sam and Dean. Sam has the Marianas Trench underneath his eyes. Dean is kind of brittle. There is none of the soothing balm of humour, empathy or paternalistic concern there was with Chrissie to ease things and reassure us that things will turn out right.
But I’ve come round to the werewolf sisters a bit more now. It’s another glimpse into the abyss but the difference this time it’s so on the nose the Winchesters can’t just sail past it as they did in Ann Annie etc. Dean can’t fall back on worn out mantras about family. Sam is in new territory and has to respond accordingly. It’s super-interesting. Hunting hasn’t made Dean feel better. What’s left to try?
We’ve had fantastic discussions about these glimpses into the abyss. (And I’ve learned such a lot through them, so thanks guys.) In these mirrors we see in extreme, monstrous form what the show veils in the Winchesters, particularly what they fail or refuse to see in about their own lives. Somewhere in this gap/refusal is the boundary between the Winchesters and the monsters they fight. That boundary has become increasingly contested, and at times disappeared completely. The question of whether monsters who can in some way live according to human values should be allowed to live is a long running one in SPN – Sheila’s ‘grey areas’ -although previously it’s been Sam on the side/role of monster and Dean in the role of choosing life or death. The flipside of this may be how far into the darkness you can go before you become lost in it. I think this question is as pertinent to Sam now as it is for Dean, given what they have both just done. There’s the what-if played out here – Sam killing Dean instead of being able to cure him, possibly, although something about the sisters’ youth particularly evokes for me the younger Dean’s struggles with his allotted role as Sam’s protector and/or executioner. That Dean has crashed and burned – what’s keeping the new one going? There’s something in here too about vows and promises. Big sister makes a promise which she keeps – the Winchester back story is full of the havoc of such vows and promises and the consequences of keeping or breaking them. Has big sis made the right decision, have the Winchesters actually made the wrong ones?
And one last thought. Something I’ve not thought about so much with mirrors is how they also allow plots to function not just as what-ifs but also as warnings and premonitions. The ‘hunt’ ends with a sibling killing a sibling. The MOC has not gone away, and so neither has this possibility (I hope).
God, enough. In conclusion, here’s a picture of a devil tempting a man with a basket of … well, you’ll have to see for yourself.
// By trust I mean I got the sense I have just about lost the sense of his POV as the moral anchor of the Winchester world, and am looking at him very much from the outside. //
Yes, I get the same sense. He has been removed “from us.” It’s kind of fabulous. The behavior is extremely rich, and somewhat mysterious – we haven’t heard much (yet) about what it felt like to him – we haven’t heard much at all – but (as with the opening episodes of Season 4 where he returned from Hell and said he didn’t remember any of it) – JA is playing it all. JA is playing what happened, it’s there – but he’s not letting anyone see it.
// who were too pink and blonde and too clean to convince me they’ve are outlaw drifters surviving on rage and chicken/human hearts. //
That was definitely a problem. I realize young actors don’t have much control over what they look like, or hairstyles given to them … but think about, say, the vampires in “Bloodlust”, how gritty and underfed they seemed – dark and pale at the same time. And there’s Kate, with her perfectly styled hair, talking about her rough life killing chickens and living in barns. Nope.
// Dean can’t fall back on worn out mantras about family. Sam is in new territory and has to respond accordingly. It’s super-interesting. Hunting hasn’t made Dean feel better. What’s left to try? //
Interesting. The void – and the obvious-ness of the connection between the sisters and their own lives – made possible (and inevitable) all of those car conversations about emotions. They HAVE to. It’s an elephant in the room. Kind of a “wherever you go, there you are” kind of thing. I have watched Alex Alexis Annie a bunch of times – and it continues to surprise me that nobody makes the connection with their own childhood. I mean … guys. Come on. But they don’t. It goes too deep, it’s too shameful, it’s wayyyyy too much. That is such a powerful episode because of those unspoken connections – you can FEEL it just working on them, grinding them down – and yet, like you say, they sail past it. That felt very very real to me. Disturbing.
I really like your additional thoughts about the sisters, and monsters/darkness. These will always be things challenging for the Winchesters to look at/handle – leftovers from their rigid childhood training. To see themselves as anything other than heroic (even though as kids, they sensed all those grey areas) – to in any way line themselves up with monsters … I mean, I’m working on the re-cap for Crossroad Blues right now and I am thinking a lot about John whispering to Dean that he might have to kill Sam.
Of course that secret doesn’t come out until Croatoan (the next episode in the lineup) but it’s starting to be too big for Dean to handle anymore – and you can see that tension all through Crossroad Blues.
John has put on Dean the burden that he might have to kill his brother. After drilling into Dean his whole life that Sam is his responsibility, Sam is to be protected. No wonder Dean can’t deal with it for 9 full episodes.
So thinking about Crossroad Blues – all as I re-watched the werewolf-sister plot line – was really amazing – the themes of this show, its structure, have that way of connecting forward and back, lots of reverb between seasons.
Helena: // I realise I don’t trust Dean at this point, and I’m also not sure if I even like him //
You’re right! How strange. I look at him like I would an unknown insect or something, just curious as to what he’ll do next.
// (although I love how Winchester psycho-dramas are (nearly?) always mirrored by females. It’s never boys, is it?). //
The Ghostfacers may not be the most manly men, but still…
Sheila: // He looked almost middle-aged there. Tired. A little out of it. […] His age, too, made his forays as Demon Dean even more “embarrassing.” You know, it’s like a 38 year old guy who constantly dates 19-year-olds. //
I think that’s why the scene with the two young male werewolves struck me: he looks tired there, too. But your comment also made me realize why that scene made me so uneasy – I just couldn’t pinpoint it before: I might be harsh but I think his sexual comeback makes him look like those 40-something guys who only hit on young people, just like a bad habit. Old, tired, going through the motions. But he’s not the Dean everyone wants a piece of – even Crowley broke up with him. I’m not even sure he still has that effect he had on people, right now.
//The Ghostfacers may not be the most manly men, but still…//
Lyrie. Good call. But they’re all man to me. Utter twits, but manly twits.
Helena://By trust I mean I got the sense I have just about lost the sense of his POV as the moral anchor of the Winchester world, and am looking at him very much from the outside.//
This is really interesting to me and I think a lot of what was going on in the car conversations was exploring this idea. Is there a moral compass for them to follow? I have to say, seeing Kate in the barn, tied up to the dangling hook was very jarring to me. It didn’t look right at all, not good; in fact, it made them look like bad guys.
Something to consider with the characters is that Dean ultimately had this done to him, as did Sam. Sam’s demon blood and subsequent powers were done to him, (initially) and Dean thought he had made the best of things with the mark by dying via Metatron. I don’t even know how culpable Dean can be for DemonDean. How responsible are you for moral choices made by the soul corrupted version of yourself?
Dean even seems to not be racing to take responsibility for what he did as a Demon – which is a switch. Think about Sam realizing all he had done when he didn’t have a soul, and immediately saying, “I need to make it right …”
That’s not happened here.
I keep coming back to the word “embarrassing.”
That is going to hold Dean back from facing a lot of stuff. And I’m not sure, honestly, that Sam is the best person to talk to about any of it. Unfortunately, they’re an old married couple at this point who have no more outside friends … so there’s nobody else to talk to.
Charlie is returning. I am really eager to see how she will react to this new Dean, and what her presence will do to him.
//Something to consider with the characters is that Dean ultimately had this done to him, as did Sam. //
Heather, yes, I guess becoming a demon episode was not of his choosing, but whether that absolves a person of responsibility for what happens, I’m open to debate. And the MOC, which set off the chain of events, was. That’s what I meant by ‘choosing to walk into the dark,’ even if you don’t see any other means of achieving a ‘good’ end. Are you then responsible for what happens to others as a consequence? Isn’t this what happened with Sam and Ruby?
It’s interesting, yeah – I mean, there’s only been one episode of Dean being back to himself. The Mark was mentioned – although they talked about it like it was a cavity, something they knew would get worse, they knew they would have to handle, but they don’t have Dental Insurance right now.
They seemed to float all over the place in those conversations – part of the joy in watching them. They weren’t obvious, and neither of them seemed to be trying to control the outcome, or the subject matter. That’s very new for both of them. Dean can be so bossy in emotional conversations – and basically tell Sam “Here is how we are going to think and feel about this stuff. End of story.” That was not going on at ALL.
Weirdly, I missed it. It helped make Dean seem so “other”, the fact that he wasn’t trying to control how those conversations went.
The funny thing about Dean as a character is that, while his decisions are not always “good”, and are often made without regard for the consequences, I usually understand his reasons for making them. I agree, then, to some extent, with both Heather and Helena. He took on the Mark willingly. Yes, he was at one of the lowest points that we’ve seen him, grieving for Kevin and justifiably feeling responsible for his death. Yes, he figured that he was already damned, so why not take on a “means to an end” that might do some good? Yep, Crowley was manipulating him, but he saw through that. So he is responsible for the Mark in a way Sam never was for the demon blood.
What I don’t have an answer for is how culpable that makes him in terms of Demon Dean’s actions. Certainly he feels the guilt–and he obviously doesn’t know how to respond to Sam anymore. D.D. even blasted away the one role that has guided most of Dean’s life, that of being his brother’s protector, when the demon tried to kill Sam. How do you come back from that?
Also, he’s “embarrassed.”
New word. New concept for him. Different from guilt somehow.
It’s like he’s been caught with his pants down. Literally. It’s not just that he did bad things as a Demon. And I honestly didn’t find him all that “evil” as a Demon – definitely not as “evil” or scary as Soulless Sam was (like the look on Sam’s face when he watched that head vampire “turn” Dean. Shivers.) There was an emotional freedom that came about being a Demon, and also – getting in so close with Crowley – palling around with him, tolerating the sexual stuff with Crowley, letting himself be dominated so openly – like he was a pet – Mortifying.
Embarrassing. He’s embarrassed rather than guilty (at least now). It makes him shame-faced. And he seemed embarrassed too when Sam talked about carrying his dead body into the room. “I know, I know …” Maybe the guilt will come, but not yet. He’s basically just cringing remembering who he was, and how revealing it all was.
It’s definitely fascinating to watch Dean not have the same old boundaries. There’s definitely been a shift.
On Lyrie’s first screen cap, the one of the two of them sitting by the water–anyone else notice the very prominent “No hunting” sign?
Yes – many folks mentioned it here in this thread. Too funny.
Weird–I specifically reread the thread looking for people mentioning it….?
*pulls out ctrl+find*
Oh, all the way at the very top! I’ve been following the thread down at the bottom and somehow missed that. Well, now I feel silly. *sighs* Should have figured everyone here was too clever not to have noticed it from the beginning.
Oh my gosh, Brat – I totally didn’t say that to make you feel silly!! I’m sorry! But yes, we were laughing about that detail – I missed it in my first viewing – I love viewers who have wicked good eyes like that. :)
It makes you wonder: did they pick that campsite because of the sign? Ha.
From the framing of the shot, it has to be intentional, at least on the director’s part.
And no, no–it’s fine. I just was like, “Oh, someone no one mentioned this! I have something I can contribute to the conversation!” But then it turns out I just didn’t backtrack far enough up the thread. Ah well. I’ve broken the ice, at least :P
I will concur with what a bunch of people said about the diner scene. The rest of the episode felt pretty solid, but that scene–! It hurt a little to watch. I think it actually would have been better if they’d given fewer flashback visuals and just let us watch the characters interact. Let Sam and Dean interrogate her–or something. Her whole spiel felt kind of canned, almost like she’d already come up with it as a defense just in case–but why would she have done that? It would have been interesting if they’d spun it as though she’d already begun having doubts and was trying to convince herself as well as the guys.
Or maybe she was, and I just missed it because of all those flashbacks. *sighs* I really don’t feel like making myself watch it again just to figure that part out.
Yeah, that scene was problematic. Honestly, I don’t think the actress was up to the challenge. Give that monologue to another better actress, she would have made it feel real, visceral, urgent.
Oh, and I’m sure the No Hunting sign was deliberate. I love it when they make stupid jokes with props. I’m working on the Crossroad Blues re-cap right now and there are a couple of good ones in there. The motel where the doctor hides out is called Baskerville Motel (and it’s an awesome example of the insane motel decor motif that we all love here so much and talk about endlessly in the re-caps – not so much now because of the bunker), and then on the fence outside one guy’s house is a sign that says BEWARE OF DOG.
Super-dumb. Super-funny. The props team having fun. Love it.
Er, *somehow* no one mentioned this.
I need more sleep.
Re “I know, I know”, I read that as Dean really *d0es* know what it feels like to have to carry your dead brother’s body back from his murder, look at it lying there oh so very dead, and try to deal with *what to do about this*! Should I do anything? Should I let this go and … then do what with my life? Is Dean embarassed partly because he totally understands how awful this moment was for Sam and Dean did nothing to *not* put Sam there … and Dean still didn’t kill Metratron? He failed and died doing it. And left Sam to deal with Dean’s body, the grief, the decision to act or not act. And THEN Demon!Dean was an a**hole to his brother and ran off with Crowley. Because he didn’t WANT to stay with Sam? Was trying to protect him from what he had become? Whew. I actually don’t think he was protecting Sam, he just wanted to leave and Crowley was offering a new life that sounded pretty damned appealing to someone who has never had a carefree moment. Especially a life that had Dean glued to his baby brother, unlike baby brother that left Dean to live free at college – walked away and didn’t look back.
I’m reading a lot into four words. But it’s not only acknowledgement, but a look into another aspect of ’embarrassing’. So much to read into that one word. Go Show!
Sheila –
ok, well Twin Peaks has been bumped to the top of my reading list! I felt the same about Terriers — kept waiting to see the expected beats in that friendship, and they never occurred. Slings and Arrows is so funny! So life and death!
The props team having fun. Love it.
In A Little Slice of Kevin, the episode where Kevin loses a finger, there’s a sign that says “BEWARE Sharp Edges Keep Fingers Clear” lol
Helena –
By trust I mean I got the sense I have just about lost the sense of his POV as the moral anchor of the Winchester world, and am looking at him very much from the outside
That’s really interesting. I don’t think I ever saw him as the moral anchor — the anchoring perspective, yes, that structures the Sam-Dean relationship as inside/outside or self/other. Still a perspective that we ought to understand as a filter or I think we risk being blind to how that filter signals his character (not saying that you are blind to this Helena! Or that Dean doesn’t have good morals). Playing with this, perhaps part of the pervasive oddness is that we have had a shift to Sam’s perspective, now that Dean has been the Other?
Hunting hasn’t made Dean feel better. What’s left to try?
I think this is a pretty crucial question going forward. And the thing is…what else do they even have?
Has big sis made the right decision, have the Winchesters actually made the wrong ones?
Obviously! The apocalypse happened because Dean wouldn’t let Sam die!
//I don’t think I ever saw him as the moral anchor — the anchoring perspective, yes, that structures the Sam-Dean relationship as inside/outside or self/other.//
Thanks, Jessie, I think ‘anchoring perspective’ and ‘filter’ is basically what I was trying to say. And by ‘moral’ I only meant ‘personal morality’ and personal values, with no particular judgement about whether they are ‘good’ or not.
And as to the Winchesters making the ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ decisions, I guess this is more what I meant: at a point in your life you might feel you’ve made utterly the right decision; at other times you might feel you’ve made the right decision but be utterly tortured by the ‘what ifs’; and at some points you might feel you made the wrong decision. Something about getting older and seeing younger people handle what you had to handle and doing it differently … maybe you can’t help but go through this, and that’s what the werewolf sisters brought up for me.
Maybe Cavafy was onto something here:
For some people the day comes
when they have to declare the great Yes
or the great No. It’s clear at once who has the Yes
ready within him; and saying it,
he goes from honor to honor, strong in his conviction.
He who refuses does not repent. Asked again,
he’d still say no. Yet that no—the right no—
drags him down all his life.
Jessie-//The apocalypse happened because Dean wouldn’t let Sam die!// Yes, that’s true. It also ended before it truly began because of the brothers choosing to say “no” as long as possible, and because Dean stuck beside Sam to the bitter end.
Helena-wow, that poem is apropo!
I see Dean at the end of Soul Survivor and in this episode as being exhausted, hollowed out, even. And yes, “embarrassed”–which was a word choice that struck me, too, and I really like what you all have said upthread about that. I think he’s struggling just to define himself. And Sam is matching and mirroring that exhaustion.
Barb –
Are you planning on checking out “The Librarians” on TNT? I think it starts on Pearl Harbor Day. I enjoyed the Noah Wylie/Bob Newhart movies. The alternative universe adventures of Men of Letters, well, People of Letters.
Jeeze, Wyle. I need to learn to spell people’s names. Or at least spell-check before hitting “post.”
I blame Agent Cooper’s doppelgänger for Kyle MacLachlan’s character being the bad guy in the first Librarian movie. I think it was also his doppelgänger in Showgirls. The real Kyle played the psychiatrist on that Law and Order SVU episode where he kills the child sociopath. Some folks might challenge these interpretations, but they’re mine and I’m sticking to them.
mutecypher- A friend sent me the link to the trailer, and I just caught myself giggling over it (yes, giggling)–so, yeah, I might. I think it’s the thought of Christian Kane as a librarian that really hit the spot for me! I do like the other TNT movies, too. :-)
//I blame Agent Cooper’s doppelgänger for Kyle MacLachlan’s character being the bad guy in the first Librarian movie.// K, that makes me giggle a bit, too. You guys are making me want to go back and re-watch Twin Peaks–
Helena, the Cavafy is haunting! Thank you. & I get you, I think we are talking about the same thing.
& re right and wrong decisions; & Barb, on apocalypses —
I do jest, and not jest, at the same time. This is where the non-difference between fate and personality comes into play. There is no “right” when we reduce to base causality. Could these chuckleheads ever have chosen otherwise, in AHBLII, in I Know What You Did Last Summer, the rest of it? It’s interesting. Lucifer is fairly implacable about fate, but as it turns out he was wrong; or at least was working from the wrong data set.
mutecypher —
I think the Mayor of Portland must be from a third line of Kyles.
Jessie !!!!
That’s Kyle channelling Bruce Campbell. Awesomeness on stilts!
I also think it was the real Kyle who spent time on Wisteria Lane. Gots to pay the bills. I have no set opinion about the Kyle on “Sex and The City,” I was merely in the room while it was broadcast. I lean toward doppelgänger, but…
True Kyle is also Skye’s dad on Agents of SHIELD.
Barb –
I liked Christian Kane as Lindsey back on Angel. I wish he had chosen the good side, oh well. Chop off a guy’s arm and he holds a grudge. He has a bit too much “clever” behind his eyes for me to buy him as the “boy, howdy” type that he appears to play in The Librarians trailer, but we’ll see.
Jessie- Destiny is one nasty rabbit hole, isn’t it? Replete with spikes in the most awkward of places. Could our boys have chosen differently? Sure–of course, all of the angels kept telling them that they couldn’t change things, which only made them dig in their heels all the harder to try to stop their descent. Then there’s the whole question of the 2014 ‘verse–sure, Lucifer didn’t win, but did the Winchester really escape anything? What did he say? “Whatever details you alter, we still will wind up–here.” I find it fascinating that the show is still circling these details/alterations/fate. So, the Croatoan virus didn’t happen, and Lucifer is in the Cage–but in our 2014, Sam was possessed by an angel, Castiel was human, and Dean grew cold.
Makes my head hurt a bit, I’ll stop now.
Mutecypher–Yes to Kane’s apparent typecasting as “the muscle”–I was hoping he would be a kickass librarian! I loved Kane on Angel, too, and I was very disappointed in his fate! (Oh, there I go again, better leave it–)